Belief is like a ... ahh crap. Forget it.
Catholics miraculously saved from inferno of Death-Science!
- Thread starter Lawdog
- Start date
If you take the time to read my post you'll eventually notice that I didn't even hint at god being a mermaid. The whole purpose was to hopefully explain the vast difference between 'belief' in something that is completely evidential vs something that has absolutely no evidence to suggest it as being anything other than fantasy. god belongs in the realm of fantasy along with mermaids.
Of course to you jesus/god is seemingly a reality, but that doesn't in any way help out the rest of us who have no valid reason to believe. It is no different to you not believing in mermaids. I would assume you don't believe in mermaids because there's no evidence to suggest such thing has ever existed. Not to add that if I sat here and said mermaids did exist, you would have no valid reason to just trust what I say, which works both ways.
You see it as an attack quite often because it's seemingly against your personal reality, but you don't seem to understand that you would be exactly the same if the positions were reversed, or someone was speaking about something you don't believe in.
One must go by the evidence. Thus far god has none, and the evidence concerning you would most likely point to some personal issues rather than any external mind speaking entities.
Of course to you jesus/god is seemingly a reality, but that doesn't in any way help out the rest of us who have no valid reason to believe. It is no different to you not believing in mermaids. I would assume you don't believe in mermaids because there's no evidence to suggest such thing has ever existed. Not to add that if I sat here and said mermaids did exist, you would have no valid reason to just trust what I say, which works both ways.
You see it as an attack quite often because it's seemingly against your personal reality, but you don't seem to understand that you would be exactly the same if the positions were reversed, or someone was speaking about something you don't believe in.
One must go by the evidence. Thus far god has none, and the evidence concerning you would most likely point to some personal issues rather than any external mind speaking entities.
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"I don't have any beliefs"...that's funny...are you alive?
Yes, alive and well, and I don't lie about things I pretend to know.
Certainly you must believe that if you type on your keyboard and then press enter that you will make a post. There, that's something to start with. Do you believe that your mom is really who she says she is? What about gravity...or would you be so inclined as to take a running leap off of a 50 story building?
Those things can be shown to exist and be verified to work. There is no need to believe in them.
I know God like I know the "f" button.
Now, now Lori, we've talked about this before. All you've ever described is a mental disorder, which is exactly like the "f" button.
Yes, alive and well, and I don't lie about things I pretend to know.
Certainly you must believe that if you type on your keyboard and then press enter that you will make a post. There, that's something to start with. Do you believe that your mom is really who she says she is? What about gravity...or would you be so inclined as to take a running leap off of a 50 story building?
Those things can be shown to exist and be verified to work. There is no need to believe in them.
I know God like I know the "f" button.
Now, now Lori, we've talked about this before. All you've ever described is a mental disorder, which is exactly like the "f" button.
Going back to the start, it's actually the perfect example of post hoc, ergo propter hoc. "After it, therefore because of it." These guys happened to pray to Mary every day, they survived, therefore their survival is because they prayed to Mary. All other individual details about, for example, how good they were as individuals, how compassionate. These things used to be assumed because they were Catholic priests, whereas today even Catholics might be inclined to recognise the potential for clay feet, and almost presume the opposite! (Which of course is no more justifiable.) Either way, it's a typical example of a religiously inclined body finding a reason to promote the miraculous by examining only those elements which they are willing to talk about: they prayed; they were saved; that's it.
But if you do examine it deeper, you have to ask questions such as, "why is Mary seemingly solely concerned with those who specifically aim prayers in her direction?" As with all such stories (of which there are a preponderance in the Bible for example), the healthy unbiased skeptic has to ask, is that the kind of capricious deity I want having an influence on the world? Why do we want to worship a God who constantly claims to Love his people, but if they break his tyrannical and authoritarian rules (such as no. 1, believing in Him) it's an Eternity of Hell Fire to teach them an unending lesson!
But if you do examine it deeper, you have to ask questions such as, "why is Mary seemingly solely concerned with those who specifically aim prayers in her direction?" As with all such stories (of which there are a preponderance in the Bible for example), the healthy unbiased skeptic has to ask, is that the kind of capricious deity I want having an influence on the world? Why do we want to worship a God who constantly claims to Love his people, but if they break his tyrannical and authoritarian rules (such as no. 1, believing in Him) it's an Eternity of Hell Fire to teach them an unending lesson!
Bells
Staff member
Well said. The fact that other people survived appears to be of little consequence. To admit that the others who survived did not pray to their deity would demean and remove the essence of the 'miracle'.Silas said:
The story of Father John Siemes posted by Lawdog under the silly guise of "Atomic Jesuit" is a fairly amazing story, recounting the events after the bomb was dropped. The glaring fact in that report is that not once did he mention that the Father Superior was saved because he was a Catholic or prayed. He described it in a manner that was both almost detached and sincere. They survived and they went around looking for other survivors while trying to rescue the Father Superior. But neither Father John Siemes nor anyone else involved with that story claim that their survival was a miracle. For others to now claim that it was a miracle diminishes the value of what Father John Siemes had to say.
Yes, Hiroshima had a significant Catholic area. There was a small probability that some would survive. I wouldn't extrapolate any meaning from this, if the area was filled with Satanists, some of them would have survived, too.
A mod needs to edit the title and take off the word "science," since Lawdog lied to us all: there's no "science" at that site to back their claims of "miracles."
I did, however, see typical humanistic tendency to magical-thinking. Positive occurrances are attributed to the "grace" of gods, the will of gods, etc; negative ones are attributed to displeasure of gods, anger of gods, "god has a plan," or "god works in mysterious ways.
If people and their beliefs weren't so fascinating, I'd have never gone into anthropology.
I did, however, see typical humanistic tendency to magical-thinking. Positive occurrances are attributed to the "grace" of gods, the will of gods, etc; negative ones are attributed to displeasure of gods, anger of gods, "god has a plan," or "god works in mysterious ways.
If people and their beliefs weren't so fascinating, I'd have never gone into anthropology.
SnakeLord said:
Well thanks for clearing that up for me genius....what would I do without you? And fantasy my ass. You want to sum up the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, the Bible, the entire lot of any and all organized religions and those who've not only participated in them throughout history, but dedicated their entire lives to them, and all of people in the history of mankind who have been reborn in Christ, and any and all people who have had any spiritual experience or encounter to speak of....yea all of that, you want to sum up as fantasy. And given that, I think that you are the one who's out of their mind.
I would also have no reason or evidence with which to call you delusional or a liar either. A lack of evidence does not prove non-existence. The only thing a lack of evidence proves is a lack of evidence. Besides, there is an abundance of evidence of God everywhere. You don't want God, so you pretend it's not there, or ignore it, and actually go to extremes like calling billions of people who disagree with you about it delusional, to rationalize your denial. And you want to talk about issues...lol.
The situations were reversed. I wasn't always born again. But at some point I came to sincerely want the truth about God. I wasn't about to take anyone's word for it, so I asked Him for proof. Not just evidence, but proof...and I got it in spades. You are wrong about God, and you don't give a shit.
(Q) said:
Neither do I. I also don't go around accusing everyone who disagrees with me, or offers a unique perspective, of being a liar.
If you accept those things as truth, then you believe in them. And God has shown me that He exists, and that He "works".
And your credentials would be what? Psychologist? Asshole? If you were any good, then you would have certainly realized by now that you're in some serious denial.
Silas said:
Silas, that is not true, and is in direct conflict with what the Bible says and with what Jesus taught. Hell is not a place of punishment, it is a place that is void of God's presence. People who don't want God, choose to go there, because He's not there...get it? I know, it's rocket science. The "lesson" is, that it's not about following rules, but about wanting to know the truth, and you're supposed to learn it while you're still alive...duh. But it's consistent, that if you choose to deny God in life, you would continue to deny Him in death. This world is fairly "hellish"...doesn't seem to make any difference to some people. Some people seem to like this hellish world just fine, and if that's so, then they should like hell even better.
offers a unique perspective
Ha! Your perspective is hardly unique. Although you cannot agree with others who are supposed to share in exactly the same knowledge of god, which by default should nullify ALL of your and their arguments as mere fantasies, yours is as tiresome and predictable as any other theist.
If you accept those things as truth
I don't. That is another major fundamental difference between you and me. Truth is relative to the observer and means very little in regards to how things work. It is one reason why atheists don't need to believe. You, of course, are unable to comprehend that concept.
you would have certainly realized by now that you're in some serious denial
Yes, I am in denial because I don't share your god fantasies, or any other of the billions of versions of god fantasies.
Ha! Your perspective is hardly unique. Although you cannot agree with others who are supposed to share in exactly the same knowledge of god, which by default should nullify ALL of your and their arguments as mere fantasies, yours is as tiresome and predictable as any other theist.
If you accept those things as truth
I don't. That is another major fundamental difference between you and me. Truth is relative to the observer and means very little in regards to how things work. It is one reason why atheists don't need to believe. You, of course, are unable to comprehend that concept.
you would have certainly realized by now that you're in some serious denial
Yes, I am in denial because I don't share your god fantasies, or any other of the billions of versions of god fantasies.
My pleasure.
The first three things listed appear nowhere else apart from in the fourth thing you listed. As a result there was no point listing them. What you should have said was:
You want to sum up the bible... as fantasy.
That's all you're saying here, and yes, I do. Much like I do with the enuma elish, koran, book of mormon, David Koresh's writings, the mahabharata, the Lord of the Rings and a million and one other written accounts that have come from the minds of men. I'm sorry but yes, I doubt the validity of a highly contradictory story written by 2000 year old shepherds who thought the world was flat as a pancake.
Answer me this Lori: why don't you believe the epic of gilgamesh is real?
People need comfort. It's the way we are. We find it in different places - some drink, some take drugs, some go train spotting. Religion works well because it stops anyone asking any questions and it means those 'in charge' can exploit people legally. It gives many the comfort they seek, safe from the knowledge that they're going to die and rot.
People are odd creatures.. I found that out the day a woman said she found it sexually arousing to piss on people. There's men that want to be women, women that want to be men, people that want to be animals, (trans-species), people that truly believe they'll one day be taken up by the mothership and transported to some planet in some other galaxy. Theres even people that believe blowing themselves up, (and everyone else around them), means they'll get 70 virgins.
Yes Lori, people are fucked up.
Mind you I consider it odd that you even made the quote you did. I've heard your thoughts on 'organised religion' quite a few times. It often comes across that you dislike them more than I do.
Much like you dismiss all people in the history of mankind who believed in odin, ra, allah, some elephant headed dude, tiamat, the loch ness monster a flat earth and sky domes with windows that let the rain fall through. What's your point? You can't play the numbers game here Lori - it's meaningless.
Much like you dismiss any and all people who have had any alien abduction experience. Oh how some evidence would change everything. We'd no longer be having this discussion. god can do as he did back in the days of halfwit mudhut dwelling nomads and come sit on a mountain. We'd all see him sitting on this mountain handing down stone tablets, annihilating gays and abortion doctors, and telling us all to be good little humans and there'd be nothing to discuss, (concerning reality of a god). We could still debate the finer points but at least we'd all know he existed and then perhaps crime rates would drop a few notches, (unless the christian held notion that the loving god is going to annihilate the planet comes to pass).
Is he shy?
Where did I call you a liar? As for the delusional part.. It certainly seems evidential to state that these things you believe exist solely in your mind, (the voices/discussions with god/him shouting at you), but delusional is probably not the best word. The brain is an awesome machine. If you need a voice to give you the drive and focus to get on in life - to overcome your fears, failed dreams, and to generally feel better about yourself then there's no reason the brain wont give it to you. A self induced reality curtain. It shields you from all that sucks. Death is replaced by eternal life, the fuck ups you make in life are all washed away as simply as that.. It's sweet.
One of the world's lamest statements, made up by those who believe in some personal nonsense that has absolutely no evidence pertaining to it. When something has no evidence to suggest it exists, (such as mermaids), then by all definitions it does not exist, but for the time being dwells in the realms of fantasy and let's pretend. It doesn't mean we knock on peoples doors and tell them to succumb to the awesome power of this non-evidential being or burn but that until such time where there is evidence to suggest it's existence, it just doesn't exist.
There might be a large floating banana-shaped orang utan living a life of seclusion somewhere in the Brazilian jungle. Until such time where there is evidence to suggest possible existence of this creature it must be considered as fantasy.
If I feel like promoting the banana shaped, floating orang utans existence then it is upto me to provide evidence of such a thing if I want or expect anyone to consider it as anything other than fantasy. You are in that position now and yet in thousands of years nobody has managed to provide diddly-squat.
Where?
This doesn't come down to 'want'. I don't want pubic lice to exist but it doesn't change the fact that they do. The existence of something is not dependant upon whether someone wants it to or not, and yet no matter how much I don't want these things to exist the evidence shows otherwise.
gods existing or not is not a matter of 'want'. If it did and showed itself I might or might not follow it or agree with it's way of doing things. For instance: if it was allah that existed and proceeded to tell me to blow up westerners I would have to decline for reasons of my own personal morality - but that wouldn't change it showing it existed, or indeed existing.
Much that you'd like to cling to that rather worthless notion, it's far from any version of reality. The simple reason - that I have tried to explain countless times, is merely that I await the evidence. When the evidence is there I will give consideration to anything you want me to - from flying squooglebats to mothmen.
Well, the couple of billion people, (that all seemingly disagree with each other anyway), are as messed up as everyone else - just in a different way. But I tell you what, I'll let you answer it and then I'll provide the same response to you:
What do you call the billions of people that believe in other gods?
And that's clearly a very personal thing. But as I explained in detail earlier - there's many people who have done the same and received nothing. No sign, no voice, no evidence, no proof, nothing, nada, zip.
That way failed miserably. Next?
It's possible. I am just a human.. What kind of human would even presume to know the slightest thing about a god? (
), but all one need do is provide some evidence and I'll give it further consideration. Alas it seems that I am asking for too much from a few billion people that haven't managed to provide so much as a sand grain of evidence over the past few thousand years. I'll come back sometime in the next millennium and see if you're any closer to achieving that goal.Hey Snake,
Thanks for being so nice and polite. *grin* I've been so shitty lately myself...in a hell of a mood. Very sorry...
It's funny you should mention alien abduction. You must not pay much attention to what I say. I guess I don't blame you since you think I'm nuts, but...that miracle I'm always talking about...has to do with alien abduction.
As a matter of fact, about 6 years ago, I met a woman out here on this forum who was an abductee...had been since she was a child. She didn't tell anyone that out here. We argued about everything...she was very "anti-christ", and from what I could tell, with good reason. But we ended up becoming very good friends...and she confided in me about alot of things...we're very close to this day. Over the years, she's told me all about her experiences...very personal and traumatic detail even. I've learned alot from her.
I had never seen an alien or a spaceship or had been abducted myself. But I knew she wasn't lying. And now I know her...and I know she's not crazy, or making a thing up.
Thanks for being so nice and polite. *grin* I've been so shitty lately myself...in a hell of a mood. Very sorry...
It's funny you should mention alien abduction. You must not pay much attention to what I say. I guess I don't blame you since you think I'm nuts, but...that miracle I'm always talking about...has to do with alien abduction.
As a matter of fact, about 6 years ago, I met a woman out here on this forum who was an abductee...had been since she was a child. She didn't tell anyone that out here. We argued about everything...she was very "anti-christ", and from what I could tell, with good reason. But we ended up becoming very good friends...and she confided in me about alot of things...we're very close to this day. Over the years, she's told me all about her experiences...very personal and traumatic detail even. I've learned alot from her.
I had never seen an alien or a spaceship or had been abducted myself. But I knew she wasn't lying. And now I know her...and I know she's not crazy, or making a thing up.
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