c20 you are one sick f@*#, go see a doctor and get of this forum,
Case: c20 vs Atheists
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fahrenheit 451 said:
No! You would love it if God were shallow, mean, and stupid wouldn't you? It would serve to justify your denial of Him. But to the contrary, He is more than fair, He is full of grace. He is unconditional love. He knows all and sees all, and He allows for your knowledge or lack thereof. Every life has it's own path, and God knows what you will do before you even do it. He knows where your heart is and why. There is no "tricking" Him. And there is no loophole. He knows of your knowledge and of your innocence as well. He knows the number of hairs on your head at any given time. He takes all things into account. So what's your excuse?
Love,
Lori
Nice. So if you were lucky enough to be born into a country/situation where you never hear about the Juedo-Christian God then you are ok? But if you do hear about it --- and don't *submit* - then you are screwed?! So your odds are better if you never are exposed to it?
Huh?
Try to put a bit of thought in that. It sounds like a bit of a ''set up''!
And of course, again . . . since Christians are the majority in America you see it as such a huge thing, but 2/3 of the people on this planet are NOT CHRISTIAN!
Huh?
Try to put a bit of thought in that. It sounds like a bit of a ''set up''!
And of course, again . . . since Christians are the majority in America you see it as such a huge thing, but 2/3 of the people on this planet are NOT CHRISTIAN!
Gravity said:
I would agree with you in regards to organized religion for the sake of itself. But I am speaking personally about a personal and spiritual relationship with God Himself...a spiritual rebirth...a spiritual phenomenon...not about organized religion. I am not a part of organized religion. I don't think that all organized religious institutions are "bad" either....what I always question, and what can make them "bad" is when people join them or belong to them for the wrong reasons...which would probably be the same reasons that one would join a cult. What makes them bad is when people use them and present them as a substitute for the spiritual rebirth and personal relationship with God that I have referred to.
Love,
Lori
Gravity said:
Listen Gravity,
It's this easy ok? It has nothing to do with age, race, location, or circumstance. If you want to know the truth about God, then you will. If you want to have a relationship with Him, then you will. He knows your heart, and your sincere desire, and He gives you exactly what you want and what you ask for. You want to deny him? You want a loophole? Granted. You don't want to know Him? Done. Don't want a relationship with Him? Fine! So what's the problem? You get what you want.
Love,
Lori
Bells said:
Of course God is there...I don't wish to believe anything, I know Him. And there is plenty of evidence of His existence all around you, including my and others testimony, which you call a lie right? He could prove His existence to you, just as He has done for me and for many others. Do you know what is stopping Him from doing that? YOU. You don't want to know Him...DUH. God does not intrude into your life unwanted and uninvited. You WISH not to know, and so you do not. If you were to change your mind, and someday sincerely want to know if there was a God or not, then He would make you aware. But until then forget it, because He gives you exactly what you ask for...exactly what you want. That's fair isn't it? So don't blame Him, blame yourself. You desire and ignorance of God...isn't that apparent to you? All you do is deny, deny, deny...find new ways and new excuses to deny right?
Oh, and I love this, "wouldn't you do something to save that child?" How about God coming to earth Himself, in the body of Jesus Christ, and suffering and dying for that child? So that all of His children can have eternal life? How about that? You love the flesh...all you can see is the life of the flesh. But God loves you and helps you in the flesh as well. He is the provider and the restorer...the protector, the redeemer. The effect of the Holy Spirit on this earth is everywhere...trust me, you would know if it was taken away...you could see and feel a difference. But here we have both sides...good and evil. You want help? You want help for your children? Call on God in the name of Jesus and what you ask of Him will be done. He has done this for me, and He does it for anyone. But again, you have to ask. You have to want it. You want to deny Him and curse Him in the same breath, which doesn't even make logical sense, and then you want His help? Well, guess what? You've got it to some degree...it could be much worse for you and for others...it's gonna get worse someday. But it could be so much better as well...if you just wanted it to be...if you just asked.
And you know, everyone dies. So what? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. It's a shame that there is sufferring in this world, but we learn from it, and that is good. Well, some of us learn from it. This world and this flesh will pass away. This is not "it". This is just a step along the way. You are much more than just your blood and bones. You are an eternal spirit...created to live an eternal life of peace love and joy. That's what you are supposed to be learning, and if you would stop denying God, you would.
Yea, people are weird...people take His name in vain, and witness falsely about Him. People do all kinds of stupid shit for all kinds of stupid reasons. You are going to let some psycho snake charmer make up your mind for you? Because some idiot behaves this way in His name you will deny Him? Are you an idiot as well? Then why would you depend on these people to prove anything to you? To decide anything for you?
Let's see, if I follow your logic, there were no wmd's in iraq because YOU didn't see them or believe them to be there. Interesting. May I point out to you that just because you can't see something does not in fact mean that it doesn't exist? That is really shallow thinking in my opinion. Doesn't that assume that you know all there is to know, because it only consists of what you have seen? You can't see the wind can you? And yet it blows buildings down. I'm glad that scientists haven't adopted your philosophy. After all...you can't see gravity. You can't see a proton or pluto, and if they thought as you did, there would have been no need to invent a microscope or a telescope. So how is it that you explain ALL of the ABUNDANCE of spiritual phenomenon that takes place on this planet everyday? Oh yes, I know...delusional liars...that's right...all of them.
He is there...you don't want Him or His help remember? Cause you can't see Him...lol.
What makes you think that they are bowing down when they discuss "intelligent design theory"? Do you have proof of these toe licking moments? Do you even know what "intelligent design theory" is? And why would they call it God? There is no God. And your sarcasm at the mention of aliens is amusing. You don't discount God, but you discount other life-forms? Kind of selfish of you to think that your God created only you and your species and the animals and plants around you, don't you think? Hey, maybe that's why God does crap all for us... maybe he's too busy helping the aliens... his other children..
Yes I know what intelligent design theory is. Have you ever seen a science textbook? Have you ever seen an alien? I'm not discounting shit. I know that the alien abduction phenomenon is real and is occurring on this planet. I unlike yourself, am not so shallow as to think that just because I haven't seen or experienced something myself, that it doesn't exist, and that all of the millions of people who have seen and have experienced are liars or crazy. And they are not His children, but the Nephilim...the children of those who have turned against Him.
Yes, you know everything don't you? Which is why you don't need God for anything. So there ya go.
Man, don't you listen at all? I've never, ever said that my proof that there is a God is because the Bible says so...never. My proof is that I know Him. I have a relationship with Him. He teaches me...talks to me....I have felt His presence...I have watched Him move in my life...He has changed me and my life....He has saved me...blessed me...comforted me...restored my shattered life. I know Him like I know my Father...and He knows me even better, and He loves me even more. THAT and only that is MY proof. You want proof? Get your own.
Love,
Lori
Gravity said:
You don't know where God is sending 2/3 of the people of this earth and neither do I! Why are you so worried about taking care of God's business with other humans? To take your own focus off of yourself perhaps? Why are you so consumed with second guessing God? To justify your denial? Worry about yourself Gravity...for it is YOU who denies Him. It is YOU who seeks to justify your own denial. And if you can do it, then others can as well huh? Don't tell me about the being that I worship...YOU DON'T KNOW HIM! Why? Because as you've stated, YOU DON'T WANT TO. But if you did, you would know what I know, and that is HE IS LOVE. LOVE...PURE AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Are you surprised that you don't understand Him when you do not seek to?
Love,
Lori
Ok - if ''he'' exists, and its true that "HE IS LOVE. LOVE...PURE AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE". Then I've got nothing to worry about. I'm a dedicated and loving parent, I give time to charities, deal honestly in my business dealing and in all other aspects of life . . . I think a supreme being that could be described as "HE IS LOVE. LOVE...PURE AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" would give me nothing to worry about. If thats *not* the case, then you may want to reconsider your use of the words ''love'', ''pure'' and especially "*unconditional*".
Think about those words before shooting off a pre-programmed reply.
Think about those words before shooting off a pre-programmed reply.
SnakeLord said:
How do you know it was not my choice to be born human? How do you know it was not your own? Do you remember the time before you were born? I would suppose that it was my choice. God always gives us a choice. Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean that you didn't make it.
And just because being a sinner is inherent doesn't mean I have to like it. I hate sin. Just because I am prone to do it, doesn't mean that I have to choose to do it, or to not feel sorry when I realize I am doing it. When I do something wrong, I feel bad about it. I don't want to do wrong if I can help it, and I know that the only hope I have is in Christ. He convicts me of my sin, and teaches me the truth about it, so that I may choose to turn from it. Yea, this may be a life long process, and I will never be perfect, or near it for that matter, but that doesn't mean that it is futile or worthless to try. Life is for learning, so I learn, and that is never futile or worthless. Even if I can't change, and I continue to do the same stupid vile things over and over...just the simple realization that these things I do are stupid and/or vile is learning and has meaning and worth. Sin sucks...the consequences of it are horrible...to myself and to the others around me. So anything I can do to avoid it, I'm all for it...and I know from experience that what I can do is to keep my eyes and my mind and my heart on Jesus Christ. To stay as close to Him as I possibly can...to keep His truth in my mind...and His love in my heart...His words in my mouth...and His voice in my ear. To deny my flesh it's way is good for me, and it's good for those around me as well...it lies and it blinds and it steals...and I don't want that.
I am not repenting for being born human, but for sin...specific sin, not the nature of it, but for giving in to it...for doing something that you know is wrong, either beforehand or a realization of it afterward, it makes no difference. If you screw up, then you should feel sorry, and want to make amends and to learn from your mistake. If you act selfishly, or hurt someone, you should feel bad, and hope to change your ways.
And once again...may I repeat...you are not tortured for eternity because you are born faulty. You are tortured by choice due to your denial of God and His truth in your life. You don't have to wait to die for that either...people torture themselves by choice with their own sin here on earth all the time. Ever watch the Jerry Springer show? Miserable vile slobs wallowing like pigs in their sin...spewing their hate and wearing their ignorance like a banner. All the while cursing God and claiming to be a victim, which to them, justifies their behaviour. God used the Jerry Springer show as an analogy of what hell was like. He said that we could see hell here on earth...a glimpse of it....and that hell was like the Jerry show to the nth degree.
Explaining the source of, and justifying are NOT the same thing. I have plenty to be forgiven for and am because I ask to be.
I am found, and since not lonely, but increasingly fulfilled. I am lonely for one man, and he is on his way...thanks to God. I am not afraid of this world...I have everything I need and will ever need in Christ. I have a personal relationship with the Creator of this world and the universe at that...what more could I need? He provides me everything to fulfill my hearts desires...I need nothing. I am not ashamed of being me. I may have made mistakes...I will continue to do so. I may have done wrong...I will continue to do so...unfortunately. I will never be perfect. There is no shame in Christ...only love, and life, and truth.
You come across as being cynical and bitter...hard-hearted. I hope that one day, God's love melts that heart of yours, so that you can heal.
Love,
Lori
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Gravity said:
"A pre-programmed reply"???? What is wrong with you? Can I not speak honestly and have a conversation with you? I'm as real as it gets sweetheart.
And if He is as I have described Him, then why oh why would you not want to know Him?
Why do you list your "good" deeds? As if that is supposed to mean something. I'm sure you can be a real asshole sometimes too huh? I know I can. Your earthly works do not get you to heaven. It is a choice to commune with God that gets you to...commune with God. Which would make a lot of sense right? To spend an eternity in communion with God in His Kingdom and under His law, you would have to actually want to do that? That makes sense to you doesn't it? So if it is that you want to spend an eternity with Him, then why don't you want to know Him now? Forget your deeds...it's not about that. It's not that they are irrelevant or meaningless...it's actually the intention behind that holds the meaning...and God sees your intent. It's just not what gets you there is all.
Love,
Lori
Lori, are you actually C20? You both speak in circles. It was a very simple point. You said "He is love pure and unconditional" -- I say, if a loving, honest and giving person then gets tortured for eternity for not jumping through the 'right' hoops. Wheras a less loving, honest and giving person would get eternal bliss . . . for simply having jumped through the right hoops . . . those are not the actions of a being acting out of unconditional and pure love.
I don't understand what part of that simple logic is so difficult for you to understand?!
I don't understand what part of that simple logic is so difficult for you to understand?!
Gravity said:
Why are you trying to act as if God wants you to jump through a hoop? Who said anything about a hoop?
Gravity, answer this question...do you want to know the truth about God? If God exists, do you really want to know? If Jesus is Him come to earth in the flesh, do you want to know? If you could know God yourself, and have a personal relationship with Him, would you want to?
See, no hoops...just very straight forward and simple questions. YOU decide what you want, and you get what you want. It's that simple.
Love,
Lori
Good grief. Lori, I'm a reborn-reborn. I know EXACTLY what it feels like to just *know* that I know the truth about God. Just like you do. But I kept reading and thinking, and grew past it . . . into being even a more good an moral person. By that I mean I was no longer motivated by carrot and stick, by bribe and threat. Now I do good for other people because I love people, because I want to see our species do well, because I sleep better at night for it.
You keep talking as if you have some exclusive knowledge - all this "If you could have . . . " junk. I'VE BEEN THERE. And I'm certain your narrow little vision will rationalize this as "well, he COULDN'T have been a *REAL* believer, couldn't have been as devout and sincere as *ME*" -- and you'd likely be wrong. I traveled Europe with a Christian Performance/Witnessing group - we were an evangalistic musics/performance ministry. I believed very much in it.
Like I said though, I kept reading and thinking. Maybe all that damn reading and thinking was because of (use a loud and shrill mental voice for this) SATAAAAN?!
Anyways, what you just don't get is - we wouldn't even talk about this shit if you folks didn't feel the need to push it on us. Through laws or through witnessing to us. I think most non-theists are like myself. I could give a damn what idiocy you believe in. Just - as the song says ''keep your Jesus off my Penis, keep your Bible off my Balls, keep your cross of my walls and your beLIEfs out of my laws!"
http://jesuspenis.ericschwartz.com/media/video/JP_Full2.wmv
You keep talking as if you have some exclusive knowledge - all this "If you could have . . . " junk. I'VE BEEN THERE. And I'm certain your narrow little vision will rationalize this as "well, he COULDN'T have been a *REAL* believer, couldn't have been as devout and sincere as *ME*" -- and you'd likely be wrong. I traveled Europe with a Christian Performance/Witnessing group - we were an evangalistic musics/performance ministry. I believed very much in it.
Like I said though, I kept reading and thinking. Maybe all that damn reading and thinking was because of (use a loud and shrill mental voice for this) SATAAAAN?!
Anyways, what you just don't get is - we wouldn't even talk about this shit if you folks didn't feel the need to push it on us. Through laws or through witnessing to us. I think most non-theists are like myself. I could give a damn what idiocy you believe in. Just - as the song says ''keep your Jesus off my Penis, keep your Bible off my Balls, keep your cross of my walls and your beLIEfs out of my laws!"
http://jesuspenis.ericschwartz.com/media/video/JP_Full2.wmv
Gravity said:Good grief. Lori, I'm a reborn-reborn. I know EXACTLY what it feels like to just *know* that I know the truth about God. Just like you do. But I kept reading and thinking, and grew past it . . . into being even a more good an moral person. By that I mean I was no longer motivated by carrot and stick, by bribe and threat. Now I do good for other people because I love people, because I want to see our species do well, because I sleep better at night for it.
You keep talking as if you have some exclusive knowledge - all this "If you could have . . . " junk. I'VE BEEN THERE. And I'm certain your narrow little vision will rationalize this as "well, he COULDN'T have been a *REAL* believer, couldn't have been as devout and sincere as *ME*" -- and you'd likely be wrong. I traveled Europe with a Christian Performance/Witnessing group - we were an evangalistic musics/performance ministry. I believed very much in it.
Like I said though, I kept reading and thinking. Maybe all that damn reading and thinking was because of (use a loud and shrill mental voice for this) SATAAAAN?!
Anyways, what you just don't get is - we wouldn't even talk about this shit if you folks didn't feel the need to push it on us. Through laws or through witnessing to us. I think most non-theists are like myself. I could give a damn what idiocy you believe in. Just - as the song says ''keep your Jesus off my Penis, keep your Bible off my Balls, keep your cross of my walls and your beLIEfs out of my laws!"
http://jesuspenis.ericschwartz.com/media/video/JP_Full2.wmv
Yea, it's clear to me personally that you're a real loving saint. I can certainly feel the love from you.
And I don't care what you've done, if you've replaced a personal relationship with God Himself with a book, you've gotten what you deserve, and what you have sought.
And oh you poor little martyr you...I'm not pushing anything on anyone. I could have sworn that we were having a conversation on a debate forum.
I guess you answered the question though. A rather wordy way to say "no".
Love,
Lori
Lori - Your pretend ''love'' and care is shallow, transparent and silly. Your type always claims that its ''not for you to judge, only God'' -- but yet you are clearly judgemental.
I don't have to pretend to love you, or pretend not to be judgemental of you. I honestly believe that the biggest threat to my childrens future is people like you. You may be an unwitting pawn of organized religion . . . you may honestly believe you are doing the right thing. But I truly and passionately believe you are a tool of evil.
Me? I'll remain a minority in my country. Much like a religious person would have been under Stalin, or a Jew under Hitler. But I remain part of the majority of the human race - the 2/3rds of the world who are not Christian.
I don't have to pretend to love you, or pretend not to be judgemental of you. I honestly believe that the biggest threat to my childrens future is people like you. You may be an unwitting pawn of organized religion . . . you may honestly believe you are doing the right thing. But I truly and passionately believe you are a tool of evil.
Me? I'll remain a minority in my country. Much like a religious person would have been under Stalin, or a Jew under Hitler. But I remain part of the majority of the human race - the 2/3rds of the world who are not Christian.
Gravity said:
It is you who is a judgemental hypocrit. The way you speak, you sound like a pharisee yourself...straight out of the pew on a Sunday morning. I myself do not participate in organized religion, so you are speaking nonsense. You hear what you want to hear and you believe what you want to believe, whether there is a shred of evidence to support it or not...it doesn't matter. "Tool of evil"? lmao...paranoid much? You're definately a "church person" at heart...you've simply traded in one dogma for another...following this one as blindly as you did the last. You're a tool.
And oh, the martyr....like a Jew under Hitler huh? You poor poor paranoid thing you. Why don't you build yourself a bunker and stock pile some food, water, guns and ammo. But if you get bored or lonely or sad, you can always come out for a hug. *hug*
XOXO,
Lori
Lori_7 said:
*Yawn* -- you don't get it. I would fight for your right to believe any idiocy you want. And fight for your right to call me a "Pharisee" or any other such silliness. But I'll also fight for my right to live in a nation free from the shackles of having laws pushed on me that promote any specific religion, any of my tax dollars going towards such, any of our foreign policy based on such mysticism . . .
And you may not be part of an ''organized religion'', but you align yourself very closely with their spew. And politically, do tell - you support Neo-Conservatives right? You think our legal system and school curriculum should be more ''faith based''?
Hey if all of those are incorrect assumptions, than good for you. But your rants very closely mirror those with such views.
And your type are the ones who are into building bunkers and carrying the weapons. Freethinkers/non-Christians are screwed if things keep going they way they are in this country.
