Can Scientists & Mystics Work Together?

You're different from your mother.
But even her mother was a human.
I already explained this point to you. Go back and re-read my previous posts. If you are having trouble understanding, please ask questions. Don't just contradict and go back to your previous incorrect assumptions. That just makes you look stupid.
I did read that, but there was some problems with what you said.
Yes. Every now and then. Mutations only occur rarely. In fact, sex is a much more important way of generating genetic diversity, but it is harder to understand so I'm starting on the simple stuff for you.
Scientists will have to prove that a cell that just copies itself, 'evolved' in to 2 sex's. The question is how did this cell copy itself in the first place. It doesn't know it has to survive. And it is quite a complicated thing for it to do.
I explained this to your previously, too. Go back until you understand this simple point: most mutations are neutral - neither good nor bad. Of those that aren't neutral, many are bad, but a few will be good. The good ones will be naturally selected and come to dominate the population over time. If you don't understand this, please ask me some questions.
This is not a problem to a certain degree, but a human is a human, a dog a dog. There is variety , in both of these, but humans are still human.

There are at least a dozen known fossils of pre-human species.
This is in scientists minds only. Lucy is a good example of this.

Looks like the "3" was a harmful mutation. The disease has now wiped out the "0" population completely, leaving only "1"s. The "0" species is extinct and now we have a new species of "1" animals.
A species is something that scientist do not agree on. That is a scientists problem , they made the determination what the species is. But a finch is a finch. It doesn't turn into a robin. So there is no problem with this.
 
hay_you:

You are diffferent from your mother.

But even her mother was a human.

Yes. Every mother and child are the same species. But the same cannot be said of great great great great great great etc. grandmothers and great great great great etc. grandchildren, who may not be able to interbreed any more.

I already explained this point to you. Go back and re-read my previous posts. If you are having trouble understanding, please ask questions. Don't just contradict and go back to your previous incorrect assumptions. That just makes you look stupid.

I did read that, but there was some problems with what you said.

If you think there are problems, tell me what they are. Don't make empty claims.

Scientists will have to prove that a cell that just copies itself, 'evolved' in to 2 sex's.

It didn't happen that way. Organisms that have sex consist of many millions of cells, all cooperating and specialising to perform different functions. At some point, sex cells evolved (i.e. like sperm and ova).

The question is how did this cell copy itself in the first place. It doesn't know it has to survive. And it is quite a complicated thing for it to do.

That's a question of biochemistry, and I am not a biochemist. You ought to ask a biochemist, or look it up on the web or in a textbook.

I explained this to your previously, too. Go back until you understand this simple point: most mutations are neutral - neither good nor bad. Of those that aren't neutral, many are bad, but a few will be good. The good ones will be naturally selected and come to dominate the population over time. If you don't understand this, please ask me some questions.

This is not a problem to a certain degree, but a human is a human, a dog a dog. There is variety , in both of these, but humans are still human.

Not after 1 million generations, and that's only 25 million years - a blink of an eye in geological time.

How old do you think the earth is, by the way?

There are at least a dozen known fossils of pre-human species.

This is in scientists minds only. Lucy is a good example of this.

Lucy is an example of the species Australopicus afarensis - a likely human ancestor species.

Don't make empty claims. If you have evidence to the contrary, present it.

A species is something that scientist do not agree on.

Do you agree that cats and dogs and humans are all different species? So do scientists.

That is a scientists problem , they made the determination what the species is. But a finch is a finch. It doesn't turn into a robin.

Correct. For the same reason that chimps don't turn into humans. Humans are not descended from chimps; they share a common ancestor. Get it?
 
Yes. Every mother and child are the same species. But the same cannot be said of great great great great great great etc. grandmothers and great great great great etc. grandchildren, who may not be able to interbreed any more.
There is no evidence that humans came from anything other than humans . The same building blocks for life, are used, in all animals.

If you think there are problems, tell me what they are. Don't make empty claims.
We were talking about , the lack of evidence for the transitional animals. The ones with the errors. You gave a response in a mathematical way , why they would not show up. The problem I have with this is that scientists have to base their theory on lack of fossil evidence. Even Darwin knew this was a problem.

It didn't happen that way. Organisms that have sex consist of many millions of cells, all cooperating and specialising to perform different functions. At some point, sex cells evolved (i.e. like sperm and ova)
.
And at some point two sex's had to appear at the same time and same place.
Even a cell just copying it's self is a complicated thing for it to do. Scientists are going to have to prove the question , how did this first cell know how do this, and then evolve, so that there were two sexes? Where did the instructions come from, for any of this to happen?

Not after 1 million generations, and that's only 25 million years - a blink of an eye in geological time.

How old do you think the earth is, by the way?
The question is then what are humans evolving into now? We will have to become none human in the future, so what is that going to be?
The best answer I have for this is the age of the universe. The time it has taken for the universe to spread out from the central location at the start. So to us it is probably is very old.

Lucy is an example of the species Australopicus afarensis - a likely human ancestor species.
• LUCY: Lucy is the latest find that has been almost universally accepted as mankind's ancestor.
http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/misslinks.htm
Lucy is an Australopithecus, that is actually more like a monkey than man. When the bones were studied by spectrograph, they were found to match a chimpanzee, rather than a man. Lucy too, is a mosaic, with bones assembled from different locations.

Lucy is the popular name given to the famous fossil skeleton found in 1974 in Ethiopia by American anthropologist Donald Johanson. To many people, Lucy is regarded as some kind of link between ape-like creatures and humans. According to Richard Leakey, who along with Johanson is probably the best-known fossil anthropologist in the world, Lucy's skull is so incomplete that most of it is "imagination made of Plaster of Paris." Leakey even said in 1983 that no firm conclusion could be drawn about what species Lucy belonged to.

http://www.allaboutscience.org/missing-link-faq.htm
How can it be possible that many of our great scientists, our best media sources, and academia are so wrong about the truth of evolution and the facts that support it? The only possible answer is that biological evolution is a devout religious philosophy that must be supported at all costs looking for scientific evidence to support it while ignoring the mountain of evidence supporting the alternative conclusion, special creation.

Do you agree that cats and dogs and humans are all different species? So do scientists.
Yes they are different kinds of life.

Correct. For the same reason that chimps don't turn into humans. Humans are not descended from chimps; they share a common ancestor. Get it?
I am familiar with what scientists say, the question is have they thought about what they are saying? A single cell at some point turns into all the life we see. That includes trees and grass etc. Unless scientists are saying to 2 different evolutions happened. One to support the other.
 
Hi Dredd

This would be true. But I have to go one step further. It won't save the world.
Intervention is the only answer.

I can't see man, even with science, stopping what is going on.

I can not see people getting along enough, and willing to sacrifice , their things, to do it.

I don't think people realize that, they are in something now that they will not be able to get out of. If you have some knowledge of spiritual things, then this idea is not new or foreign to you.

This idea of no God, was written about over 2000 years ago, that people would be saying this. At that time it was unthinkable for most. Today it is common.

I would settle on saving world civilization, because the rest of it can take care of itself in the short run before the Sun does its thing. :bawl: :cool:
 
This is what scientists say, but that is not the evidence. Because some thing look sort of similar doesn't mean one came from another. No one has seen or is there any evidence that this correct.

That doesn't matter. You said if evolution were true, we would expect to see transitions between one kind of form and another. That is what we see. You may choose to believe that they were not all related to each other, but that too doesn't matter, since DNA relationships cannot be confirmed on such old fossils. They are separated by time and geology, and they are in the right place to be the transitional species, therefore they support the Theory of Evolution.
 
There is no evidence that humans came from anything other than humans . The same building blocks for life, are used, in all animals.
That reveals the genetic relationship between all living things. You are correct in that no one was ever born a different species from their parents, and yet the entire gene pool gradually shifted until, in retrospect, we can see that they did indeed change over millions of years.
We were talking about , the lack of evidence for the transitional animals. The ones with the errors. You gave a response in a mathematical way , why they would not show up. The problem I have with this is that scientists have to base their theory on lack of fossil evidence. Even Darwin knew this was a problem.
In Darwin's time, we hadn't yet found all the fossils which we have now. In saying that you want to find errors, that is a misunderstanding. Errors only lead to variation in the gene pool, which natural selection (or other types of selection) can act upon. No individual appears to be the result of an error. Evolution does not proceed by producing "freaks" of nature.


The question is then what are humans evolving into now?
No one knows, evolution doesn't have goals.
We will have to become none human in the future, so what is that going to be?
We will still think we are human, only in retrospect, we will see that we did change over time.

• LUCY: Lucy is the latest find that has been almost universally accepted as mankind's ancestor.
That is scientifically incorrect. No particular fossil can be pinpointed as our direct ancestor, there are only likely candidates.


Lucy is the popular name given to the famous fossil skeleton found in 1974 in Ethiopia by American anthropologist Donald Johanson. To many people, Lucy is regarded as some kind of link between ape-like creatures and humans. According to Richard Leakey, who along with Johanson is probably the best-known fossil anthropologist in the world, Lucy's skull is so incomplete that most of it is "imagination made of Plaster of Paris." Leakey even said in 1983 that no firm conclusion could be drawn about what species Lucy belonged to.
So what? Other fossils have been found which support the general trend of larger brain size.





I am familiar with what scientists say, the question is have they thought about what they are saying? A single cell at some point turns into all the life we see. That includes trees and grass etc. Unless scientists are saying to 2 different evolutions happened. One to support the other.

It's all one process of evolution. We are related to every living thing.
 
I would settle on saving world civilization, because the rest of it can take care of itself in the short run before the Sun does its thing.
This is why there needs to be an intervention.
 
That doesn't matter. You said if evolution were true, we would expect to see transitions between one kind of form and another. That is what we see. You may choose to believe that they were not all related to each other, but that too doesn't matter, since DNA relationships cannot be confirmed on such old fossils. They are separated by time and geology, and they are in the right place to be the transitional species, therefore they support the Theory of Evolution.
They are related in that they were created very similar , but scientist have never proved or seen one kind of animals become another kind. This is only speculation.
 
It's the only model that fits the data. Analysis of the DNA of modern animals proves that similar ones are related (with some interesting exceptions), so this is what must have happened in the past too.
 
It's the only model that fits the data. Analysis of the DNA of modern animals proves that similar ones are related (with some interesting exceptions), so this is what must have happened in the past too.
Scientists assume this is the only answer because they reject that life was created.
All scientists have to do it prove it.
 
Scientists assume this is the only answer because they reject that life was created.
Because there's no evidence that life was created.

You reject the scientific answers because you assume that life was created.
 
Because there's no evidence that life was created.

You reject the scientific answers because you assume that life was created.
The evidence supports that life was created. It is just some scientists that say it was not, they are the ones that have to prove it.
 
The evidence supports that life was created.
Nope, you're interpreting it the wrong way.
Not to take anything away from you, but you're looking at the evidence incorrectly.

It is just some scientists that say it was not, they are the ones that have to prove it.
Some?
The vast majority: the ones that actually do science instead of rely on belief.
 
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hay_you:

There is no evidence that humans came from anything other than humans.

But I just told you that there are many fossils of human ancestor species. Go and look on the web. Go to a museum, or get yourself a biology textbook. The evidence is there. Just go and look at it!

The same building blocks for life, are used, in all animals.

Yes, because all animals are related.

We were talking about , the lack of evidence for the transitional animals. The ones with the errors. You gave a response in a mathematical way , why they would not show up. The problem I have with this is that scientists have to base their theory on lack of fossil evidence. Even Darwin knew this was a problem.

The evidence for evolution isn't only the fossil record. There are many different lines of evidence that all support the theory of evolution. But evolution doesn't rely on gaps in the fossil record. Every fossil that is found MUST be consistent with the theory, or the theory would have to be tossed out. And ALL the fossils that have ever been found only support the theory of evolution. We see exactly the kinds of fossils that the theory tells us to expect to see.

Compare creationism again. The creationist explanation of the fossil record is Noah's flood. But creationism can't even explain why we don't find fossils of animals from all different eras mixed up in the same layers. Why are there no fossilised rabbits in Precambrian strata? Creationism can't explain that. Evolution does.

Even a cell just copying it's self is a complicated thing for it to do. Scientists are going to have to prove the question , how did this first cell know how do this, and then evolve, so that there were two sexes? Where did the instructions come from, for any of this to happen?

How much have you read up on the specifics of this topic? Please quote a few of the scientific papers you have read about this. Or textbooks.

The question is then what are humans evolving into now?

There's no way to know. Mutations are random.

Humans are unlikely to split into several species again, however, until groups become geographically separated again for long periods of time. That is unlikely to happen until humans move out and start colonising other planets.

The best answer I have for this is the age of the universe. The time it has taken for the universe to spread out from the central location at the start. So to us it is probably is very old.

Thousands of years? Millions of years? Billions? What's your best guess at the age of the Earth?

LUCY: Lucy is the latest find that has been almost universally accepted as mankind's ancestor.

This is loose talk, as spidergoat said. Lucy is, however, the kind of animal that we must have evolved from.

Lucy is an Australopithecus, that is actually more like a monkey than man.

Yes.

When the bones were studied by spectrograph, they were found to match a chimpanzee, rather than a man.

I think this is false. If Lucy had "matched" a chimpanzee, then scientists would have classified her as a chimpanzee.

Lucy too, is a mosaic, with bones assembled from different locations.

I don't think so.

According to Richard Leakey, who along with Johanson is probably the best-known fossil anthropologist in the world, Lucy's skull is so incomplete that most of it is "imagination made of Plaster of Paris." Leakey even said in 1983 that no firm conclusion could be drawn about what species Lucy belonged to.

It doesn't matter, because Lucy is not the only example of Australopithecus afarensis. Other, more complete, examples have been found since.

How can it be possible that many of our great scientists, our best media sources, and academia are so wrong about the truth of evolution and the facts that support it? The only possible answer is that biological evolution is a devout religious philosophy that must be supported at all costs looking for scientific evidence to support it while ignoring the mountain of evidence supporting the alternative conclusion, special creation.

This is empty rhetoric. All the evidence is against the biblical Creation story. All the evidence is in favour of evolution.

I am familiar with what scientists say, the question is have they thought about what they are saying? A single cell at some point turns into all the life we see.

A single species of cells.

That includes trees and grass etc.

Correct. You share a large portion of your DNA with daffodils, like I said earlier.
 
But I just told you that there are many fossils of human ancestor species. Go and look on the web. Go to a museum, or get yourself a biology textbook. The evidence is there. Just go and look at it!
I have looked , thats why it is a problem, the transitional ones are not there. You would have to find the errors, the mistakes, the limbs etc that would not be useful. Scientists say there would be many slight variations not necessarily big jumps. So these would not kill an animal at birth. Mothers look after the young until they are old enough to survive on their own . Even if the slightly mutated animal died then , that would be in the fossil record. There really should be a lot of these. But none are found.

Yes, because all animals are related.
We are all made from the same materials, some have scales and others have feathers , some have skin other fur etc, but we are all made from the instructions from DNA. I could paint all the pictures in the world with four different colors. Just like DNA can make all the animals and plants in the world. In this way they are related. But the painting were created, so is the life we see.

The evidence for evolution isn't only the fossil record. There are many different lines of evidence that all support the theory of evolution. But evolution doesn't rely on gaps in the fossil record. Every fossil that is found MUST be consistent with the theory, or the theory would have to be tossed out. And ALL the fossils that have ever been found only support the theory of evolution. We see exactly the kinds of fossils that the theory tells us to expect to see.

Compare creationism again. The creationist explanation of the fossil record is Noah's flood. But creationism can't even explain why we don't find fossils of animals from all different eras mixed up in the same layers. Why are there no fossilized rabbits in Precambrian strata? Creationism can't explain that. Evolution does.
This is true there are other evidences that support how all life got here. Yet if you are looking for the answer of 'evolution' before you even find the evidence, you are going to come up with the same conclusion , that you went into with. For example, the 'missing links' many have been found, and then after scrutiny , set aside as, it didn't work out. This tells you the purpose is to prove 'evolution' , but further work on thee finds tells you once again , they don't fit.
When it comes to Noah,s flood there are evidence of that, scientist have found all sorts of animals washed into areas all piled up, there have been sea bed fossils found on tops of mountains, they also have found Mammoths, with food in it's mouth and frozen very quickly, even at the poles of this earth. Also showing that at one just before the flood, the condition at the poles was more tropical.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian_rabbit
At one time, "Precambrian rabbits" or "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian" rock samples became popular imagery in debates about the validity of the theory of evolution and the scientific field of evolutionary biology. The images are reported to have been among responses given by the biologist, J.B.S. Haldane, when he was asked what evidence could destroy his confidence in the theory and the field of study. Many of his statements about his scientific research were popularized in his lifetime.

Some accounts use this response to rebut claims that the theory of evolution is not falsifiable by any empirical evidence. This followed an assertion by philosopher, Karl Popper, who had proposed that falsifiability is an essential feature of a scientific theory. Popper also expressed doubts about the scientific status of evolutionary theory, although he later concluded that the field of study was genuinely scientific.

Rabbits are mammals. From the perspective of the philosophy of science, it is doubtful whether the genuine discovery of mammalian fossils in Precambrian rocks would overthrow the theory of evolution instantly, although, if authentic, such a discovery would indicate serious errors in modern understanding about the evolutionary process. Mammals are a class of animals, whose emergence in the geologic timescale is dated to much later than any found in Precambrian strata. Geological records indicate that although the first true mammals appeared in the Triassic period, modern mammalian orders appeared in the Palaeocene and Eocene epochs of the Palaeogene period. Many, many millions of years separate this period from the Precambrian.
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This shows there was great controversy about this going from one side to the other. Scientists will still look at this from now on. Could be changed again. Lets wait 50 years and see what happens then.
Thousands of years? Millions of years? Billions? What's your best guess at the age of the Earth?
The creation accounts don't tell us how old the earth is .We rely on the scientists to do that. Though I am not totally convinced, scientist have some dating method that is prefect. But there is no time period from the creation accounts that says the earth could not be billions or millions or thousands of years old. So my guess is pretty much the same as scientists guess. Though I do feel most comfortable withe the speed of light, measurement. But even that is questioned, concerning the universe.

This is loose talk, as spidergoat said. Lucy is, however, the kind of animal that we must have evolved from.
That is only if you assume we 'evolved'. Here again though there are not fossils that show all the little changes that would happen if we were direct descendants of this. Scientists again have no evidence. But for humans , special creation is what there is evidence for.

There's no way to know. Mutations are random.
Scientists come across mutation all the time. We have twins that are joined, we have a girl with 2 heads, we have non developed limbs, etc there all sorts of mutations , that are random.
So what are we 'evolving' into now? What are we going to become next, when we are no longer human?
I think this is false. If Lucy had "matched" a chimpanzee, then scientists would have classified her as a chimpanzee.
Scientists change their evaluation of these finds all the time , when reexamined.


It doesn't matter, because Lucy is not the only example of Australopithecus afarensis. Other, more complete, examples have been found since.
Yes and that was why they don't think Lucy, is part of this now.
With scientists there had been many of these , over time they fall by the wayside.

A single species of cells.
Then let scientists prove it.

Correct. You share a large portion of your DNA with daffodils, like I said earlier.
It must be many years of 'education' to come up with an idea like that. There must be a lot marijuana in the scientists DNA.
 
What evidence?
The evidence is in the design of life.
There is a reason scientists don't find life , happening by itself. It takes life to create it. It is also why scienctists are still looking for the missing links. Its because they are missing,... from the fossil record.
 
The evidence is in the design of life.
That's a supposition. You're interpreting the evidence incorrectly.

There is a reason scientists don't find life , happening by itself. It takes life to create it.
Supposition.

It is also why scienctists are still looking for the missing links. Its because they are missing,... from the fossil record.
If by "missing links" you mean "transitional forms" then you have already been shown where and how you are wrong on this.

Still trolling.
 
The evidence is in the design of life.
There is a reason scientists don't find life , happening by itself. It takes life to create it. It is also why scientists are still looking for the missing links. Its because they are missing,... from the fossil record.

I see you define missing link as something other than the rest of the world does. As a result of your misunderstanding (deliberate if you ask me), you are looking for "errors", partial limbs, and such, as evidence of a transition. Although birth defects and radical mutations do happen from time to time, the vast majority of these do not live, they are individuals, and don't show up in the fossil record, which is by nature sparse, and tends to capture examples of individual types that have already been around for millions of years.

Transitions are not errors, they are fossils that contain traits of more than one previously recovered fossil. Like this:

toskulls2.jpg


You can see the progression from an ape-like brain size , to larger humanoid brains. The ones that look like modern humans are not found in the same age strata as the ones that look like apes. There is a progression in time, as well as morphology. This chart shows the timeline:

famtree3b.gif


This isn't made up, this is the data you would have to explain if you want to debunk hominid evolution.

Although errors do initially provide the variations on which natural selection can act, the preserved, functional variations are the driving force for change in the morphology of a sexual being. Non-sexual species tend not to vary as much if at all, and as a result do not adapt well to new circumstances. It's the only explanation for sex.
 
In a book review of The Myths of Human Evolution written by evolutionists Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall, Discover magazine observed that the authors eliminated any evolutionary family tree. Why? After noting that “the links that make up the ancestry of the human species can only be guessed at,” this publication stated: “Eldredge and Tattersall insist that man searches for his ancestry in vain. ....... If the evidence were there, they contend, ‘one could confidently expect that as more hominid fossils were found the story of human evolution would become clearer. Whereas, if anything, the opposite has occurred.’”
This was from a clip I saved a few years ago. So you don't have to accept it if you don't want to.


There are many problems with this. For instance which ones could a human mate with, also even in humans today there is a difference in skulls, which one of those found are human? The reviewers are correct, this is only a guess.
Besides if any of these creatures were successful where are they now? Where are the ones that are really supposed to be close to us, so that we could see the minute changes that it took to get to man. Big jumps in the fossil record support creation. That is what we see today, a big jump from any type of ape.
And you have agree that all of this is interpretation of the scientists, from the fossils they have found.
Also scientist still haven't proved that one animal can turn into another. And this still doesn't eliminate the fact that creation can also make similar animals.
If scientists can not prove that life started without intelligence and a cell can 'evolve' into all we see, scientists, have nothing, but guess work. These are scientists ideas, prove it.
 
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