Can Buddhism be more reliable than Christianity?

[Circe]

Jenyar

I took a look at the website you provided -

First off, the Gnostics never implied that Jesus and Mary Magdalene may have had children. This is just an interpretation of their beliefs, and it's incorrect. Another thing, contrary to what the website says, Basilides did believe that Jesus, and not his substitute, died on the cross. At the same time though, this was not so relevant to him as he was referring to the spiritual death (and rebirth) rather then the physical one - since the misinterpretation.
As to the agenda - since gnostics didn't recognize the church hierarchy with bishops and the pope as the only earthly representatives of God, do you think that the catholic church didn't have an agenda in supressing them? Read Irenaeus' writings (he was, of course, gnostics' arch-enemy); after all, this was almost the only source on them up until the world rediscovered the Nag Hammadi scrolls. If you read them and then compare them with what Irenaeus wrote, you will get a clearer picture on what the gnostics really stood for. You will also see how they were deliberately misinterpreted.

So all in all, please understand that the early church deliberetely suppressed and misinterpreted the gnostic believes (the same goes for Jesus' teachings, for that matter). Therefore, it's unwise to expect that one can learn the truth about them from the same source that tried to eliminate them.

I will be glad to debate gnostics with you but that will have to wait as I'm moving to Vermont tomorrow. I will be back though some time in the near future.

Peace,

 

[Cris]

Jen,

But another thing we know for sure is that we can't see beyond death - and that might have implications.

I feel that is a significant understatement.

However, your statement could be taken in two ways, both have enormous implications.

1. That there is something beyond death and we simply can’t see it. The implication here is the entire set of concepts that revolve around heaven, hell, nirvana, reincarnation etc. Or IOWs the objective of pretty much every religion, most of which, if not all of them are going to be wrong, since if we can’t see the truth then all religions are just blind guesses.

2. That we don’t know if there is something beyond death or not. If there is nothing beyond death then the implications are also very profound for pretty much every religion – they will be irrelevant since the presence of some form of soul or life to life transition is an essential basis of every such religion.

With these issues so well exposed why would anyone choose to follow any religion

 

[Tiassa]

Limited participation.

Thanks for the nifty link, EvilPoet. I'll let my participation in this topic stand as a hearty "Hurrah!" for that link, and also a minor editorial comment regarding ... well ....

Jenyar, on first reading, the link you provided does not appear to be any real comparison of reincarnation and resurrection, but rather propaganda in the form of resurrection versus what a Christian tells me reincarnation is. Please note how removed the page keeps reincarnation from its sources, while employing the Bible more directly in its considerations of resurrection.

It would be tantamount to me taking the most logical-sounding Buddhist reincarnation theory and then comparing it to "resurrection" and lumping every Christian sect into one summarized idea of resurrection that, I guarantee you, Christians won't like if I'm the one writing it.

I mean, there are serious gaps in the salvation and resurrection schemes of Seventh-Day Adventism, televangelists, and Roman Cathollics. If you lump them altogether, resurrection and salvation make even less sense than they do most days. I would hope that your time at Sciforums would have shown you at least that in the sense that it's really hard to criticize Christianity around here since there's always a Christian on hand to tell you that you're criticizing faulty doctrine and this or that is actually the real poop.

I don't recall how much interaction you ever had with Tony1, but there was a man whose resurrection scheme was impossible to figure out. As far as we could tell, everybody but him was wrong, though he wouldn't tell us what he thought the right answer was. But I know for a fact that his rejections of various visions of Hell pretty much rejected most, if not all, of formal Christianity. (I remember once that I was accused of being "too Catholic" when the example at hand was from an ant-Catholic website ....)

But really: In Christian salvation, what does judgment look like? Is it a pleading of the case or a last chance to repent before His Glory? Is it an instantaneous transferrence because the name is absent from the Book of Life and was before you were born? Is Hell itself merely a fiery extermination of the soul, or a prolonged torture? Is it something else entirely?

If I compare one contiguous thread of any religion to the whole of the Christian paradigm, I, too, could write a paper as empty yet persuasive as the Geisler and Brooks article you provided. (And the rest of that website ... obviously I haven't gone through it all, but it's just a little creepy.)

Damn it! I was going to try to limit my input here.

Whoops. Sorry.

At any rate, Jenyar, I know you're capable of giving issues honest consideration; you have in the past and I have no reason to doubt you at this time. So ... um, while I didn't mean to pile the editorial onto you, well ... that's about what it equals. I have serious doubts about the integrity of the article you provided. It's far too political, far too distorted, and mere propaganda for the 21st Century disciple to feed on.

Ask a Buddhist about God sometime. The answers are interestingly diverse if you ask enough of them individually. (God is not required for reincarnation in the sense of "God" as a judging entity. God can merely be Universe and reincarnation is as possible or impossible as any other similarly bizarre idea.)

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[EvilPoet]

You're welcome Tiassa.

 

[Jenyar]

I know you're right Tiassa. I hesitated to post the link for that reason, but since it did give a summary of both sides I thought it might be helpful. The problem, I guess, is that you can't really find a representative website of either side - everybody has his personal conviction. There might be a more unbiased one somewhere, but there's the internet for you.

As for Christian judgment - we start out with the premise that we are serving the God of truth and justice. We trust His verdict will be fair and just by the standards required - standards we really can't put into words (other than that it is enclosed in faith, and visible in deeds). Nobody will end up in hell who doesn't deserve to be there (No condemnation intended). The word used in the Bible is 'torment' (internal), not 'torture' (external) - suffering according to guilt.

CS Lewis said the gates of hell are locked from the inside. We are already inside in a sense, experiencing the effects of sin - the question is if we allow God to let us out, change our lives, and save us from eternal death.

 

[edgar]

isnt that just as bad?

 

[Jenyar]

Yes, but it paints a clearer picture of our situation. The situation is bad already, otherwise God would not have implemented His plan for salvation while we were still alive. People say that a merciful God wouldn't send anybody to hell - but they don't realize that God isn't sending anybody to hell. That is the whole reason the Bible and gospels exist: to tell the story of choice and salvation. The "pool of fire" was created for the devil, hell and death(Rev.20:14), and whoever dies and is not saved will end up there along with it ("belongs to it").

Nobody ever said: "that person couldn't have died that way - it's just too cruel...!". As Douglas Adams put it: Whatever happens, happens.

For an example of cruelty, see 'the human history', p.1-infinity.
For an example of death, see 'your life', the last page.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by Red Devil
spot on!

I skip posts with biblical quotes - they are a fallacy. As to the original question, yes - I think Buddhism has a hell of a lot more going for it than any other religion. Buddhism has never started a fight, caused a war or hurt fellow human beings and DOES NOT worship a god - all adds to to the "perfect" religion in my mind.

Even the Bible itself said "You shall know a tree by its fruit. A good tree bringeth forth good fruit, a bad tree bringeth forth bad fruit." Buddhist Apples taste so much nicer than Christian Apples.

 

[Red Devil]

Originally posted by Cris
Jen,

I feel that is a significant understatement.

However, your statement could be taken in two ways, both have enormous implications.

1. That there is something beyond death and we simply can’t see it. The implication here is the entire set of concepts that revolve around heaven, hell, nirvana, reincarnation etc. Or IOWs the objective of pretty much every religion, most of which, if not all of them are going to be wrong, since if we can’t see the truth then all religions are just blind guesses.

2. That we don’t know if there is something beyond death or not. If there is nothing beyond death then the implications are also very profound for pretty much every religion – they will be irrelevant since the presence of some form of soul or life to life transition is an essential basis of every such religion.

With these issues so well exposed why would anyone choose to follow any religion

Actually we can. I have had a "message" from beyond that absolutely nobody could have known about - it proves to me that "there is something beyond death"...............

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by Red Devil
Actually we can. I have had a "message" from beyond that absolutely nobody could have known about - it proves to me that "there is something beyond death"...............

That sounds interesting, do you care to elaborate?

 

[Saint]

Buddhism is more a way of life.
If you know chinese, you can read ,many scriptures in chinese that explain buddhism in more details.

The jehovah of bible is bloody, looks more like a devil to me.

 

[Red Devil]

Siddhartha: I am not sure if this is the correct place to post such an account but here is a brief synopsis.

This relates to two incidents which one can be explained away, the second cannot.

First. I was living in Northern Ireland and wanted to buy a nice house there and settle. I asked my sister, who visits the medium, not to say where I was but "should I buy the house". Answer came back No; you will be moving "across water" soon. About 3 months later I got moved back "across the water" to England. Second example - same medium. Mothers friend died and left a watch to his son, a Member of Parliament. State Opening coming up - he rang my mother, who was looking after his things, and said that he had a new suit for the occasion, could he take the watch (a fob watch) to wear as he had a special pocket made for it. Yes she said, we both know its yours but nobody else does (thats important). He took it and then later, my sister went to the medium where a puzzled medium asked my sister "He says - Where's my bloody watch?" exact words! Apparently he had looked for it in the house and could not find it. No way did she know anything about this nor did my sister nor did anyone mention it in the preamble. I am convinced, knowing all the details. The only people who knew he had the watch was my mother and his son.

 

[Siddhartha]

I'd be wary of basing a solid belief on those two incidents. I feel that perhaps, had the medium advised otherwise... you wouldn't have discounted the afterlife, you would have discounted the medium. Do you see what I mean? Interesting nonetheless. Once, a medium told my mum that someone in her family would crash in a blue car. Shortly afterward I crashed my dad's blue car. However, it later transpired that while talking with the medium, my mum had let slip that I'd recently passed my test and had to drive my dad's car etc... Basically, the medium probed for things that might worry my mum, and made a few bad predictions. The second anything close to any of them happen, the first thing that pops into her mind is "Oh, the medium predicted this!!" - the thing is, you only remember her successes. You don't objectively measure the rate or prediction success. If you did, the magic would fall away.

 

[Red Devil]

I understand the "probing" aspect, but neither the medium nor my sister knew of the second incident and, with regards to the first incident, I specifically told my sister NOT to mention who was asking or where I was - until then I was none commital.

 

[Saint]

From: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm



• What is Buddhism?

Buddhism is a religion to about 300 million people around the world. The word comes from 'budhi', 'to awaken'. It has its origins about 2,500 years ago when Siddhartha Gotama, known as the Buddha, was himself awakened (enlightened) at the age of 35.

• Is Buddhism a Religion?

To many, Buddhism goes beyond religion and is more of a philosophy or 'way of life'. It is a philosophy because philosophy 'means love of wisdom' and the Buddhist path can be summed up as:

(1) to lead a moral life,
(2) to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and
(3) to develop wisdom and understanding.

• How Can Buddhism Help Me?

Buddhism explains a purpose to life, it explains apparent injustice and inequality around the world, and it provides a code of practice or way of life that leads to true happiness.

• Why is Buddhism Becoming Popular?

Buddhism is becoming popular in western countries for a number of reasons, The first good reason is Buddhism has answers to many of the problems in modern materialistic societies. It also includes (for those who are interested) a deep understanding of the human mind (and natural therapies) which prominent psychologists around the world are now discovering to be both very advanced and effective.

• Who Was the Buddha?

Siddhartha Gotama was born into a royal family in Lumbini, now located in Nepal, in 563 BC. At 29, he realised that wealth and luxury did not guarantee happiness, so he explored the different teachings religions and philosophies of the day, to find the key to human happiness. After six years of study and meditation he finally found 'the middle path' and was enlightened. After enlightenment, the Buddha spent the rest of his life teaching the principles of Buddhism - called the Dhamma, or Truth - until his death at the age of 80.

• Was the Buddha a God?

He was not, nor did he claim to be. He was a man who taught a path to enlightenment from his own experience.

• Do Buddhists Worship Idols?

Buddhists sometimes pay respect to images of the Buddha, not in worship, nor to ask for favours. A statue of the Buddha with hands rested gently in its lap and a compassionate smile reminds us to strive to develop peace and love within ourselves. Bowing to the statue is an expression of gratitude for the teaching.

• Why are so Many Buddhist Countries Poor?

One of the Buddhist teachings is that wealth does not guarantee happiness and also wealth is impermanent. The people of every country suffer whether rich or poor, but those who understand Buddhist teachings can find true happiness.

• Are There Different Types of Buddhism?

There are many different types of Buddhism, because the emphasis changes from country to county due to customs and culture. What does not vary is the essence of the teaching - the Dhamma or truth.

• Are Other Religions Wrong?

Buddhism is also a belief system which is tolerant of all other beliefs or religions. Buddhism agrees with the moral teachings of other religions but Buddhism goes further by providing a long term purpose within our existence, through wisdom and true understanding. Real Buddhism is very tolerant and not concerned with labels like 'Christian', 'Moslem', 'Hindu' or 'Buddhist'; that is why there have never been any wars fought in the name of Buddhism. That is why Buddhists do not preach and try to convert, only explain if an explanation is sought.

• Is Buddhism Scientific?

Science is knowledge which can be made into a system, which depends upon seeing and testing facts and stating general natural laws. The core of Buddhism fit into this definition, because the Four Noble truths (see below) can be tested and proven by anyone in fact the Buddha himself asked his followers to test the teaching rather than accept his word as true. Buddhism depends more on understanding than faith.

• What did the Buddha Teach?

The Buddha taught many things, but the basic concepts in Buddhism can be summed up by the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

• What is the First Noble Truth?

The first truth is that life is suffering i.e., life includes pain, getting old, disease, and ultimately death. We also endure psychological suffering like loneliness frustration, fear, embarrassment, disappointment and anger. This is an irrefutable fact that cannot be denied. It is realistic rather than pessimistic because pessimism is expecting things to be bad. lnstead, Buddhism explains how suffering can be avoided and how we can be truly happy.

• What is the Second Noble Truth?

The second truth is that suffering is caused by craving and aversion. We will suffer if we expect other people to conform to our expectation, if we want others to like us, if we do not get something we want,etc. In other words, getting what you want does not guarantee happiness. Rather than constantly struggling to get what you want, try to modify your wanting. Wanting deprives us of contentment and happiness. A lifetime of wanting and craving and especially the craving to continue to exist, creates a powerful energy which causes the individual to be born. So craving leads to physical suffering because it causes us to be reborn.

• What is the Third Noble Truth?

The third truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained; that true happiness and contentment are possible. lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free. We then have more time and energy to help others. This is Nirvana.

• What is the Fourth Noble Truth?

The fourth truth is that the Noble 8-fold Path is the path which leads to the end of suffering.

• What is the Noble 8-Fold Path?

In summary, the Noble 8-fold Path is being moral (through what we say, do and our livelihood), focussing the mind on being fully aware of our thoughts and actions, and developing wisdom by understanding the Four Noble Truths and by developing compassion for others.

• What are the 5 Precepts?

The moral code within Buddhism is the precepts, of which the main five are: not to take the life of anything living, not to take anything not freely given, to abstain from sexual misconduct and sensual overindulgence, to refrain from untrue speech, and to avoid intoxication, that is, losing mindfulness.

• What is Karma?

Karma is the law that every cause has an effect, i.e., our actions have results. This simple law explains a number of things: inequality in the world, why some are born handicapped and some gifted, why some live only a short life. Karma underlines the importance of all individuals being responsible for their past and present actions. How can we test the karmic effect of our actions? The answer is summed up by looking at (1) the intention behind the action, (2) effects of the action on oneself, and (3) the effects on others.

• What is Wisdom?

Buddhism teaches that wisdom should be developed with compassion. At one extreme, you could be a goodhearted fool and at the other extreme, you could attain knowledge without any emotion. Buddhism uses the middle path to develop both. The highest wisdom is seeing that in reality, all phenomena are incomplete, impermanent and do no constitute a fixed entity. True wisdom is not simply believing what we are told but instead experiencing and understanding truth and reality. Wisdom requires an open, objective, unbigoted mind. The Buddhist path requires courage, patience, flexibility and intelligence.

• What is Compassion?

Compassion includes qualities of sharing, readiness to give comfort, sympathy, concern, caring. In Buddhism, we can really understand others, when we can really understand ourselves, through wisdom.

• How do I Become a Buddhist?

Buddhist teachings can be understood and tested by anyone. Buddhism teaches that the solutions to our problems are within ourselves not outside. The Buddha asked all his followers not to take his word as true, but rather to test the teachings for themselves. ln this way, each person decides for themselves and takes responsibility for their own actions and understanding. This makes Buddhism less of a fixed package of beliefs which is to be accepted in its entirety, and more of a teaching which each person learns and uses in their own way.

 

[Red Devil]

After reading that from SAINT (thank you) It only goes to reinforce my earlier posts where I stated that the only "religion" worth anything on this planet is Buddhism - I stand by that and Saint's post puts the point across perfectly.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Jenyar

Jan,
The Bible does not imply reincarnation. Why would God shorten people's lifetimes if it makes no difference in the long run - and in fact gives them less chance to attain "enligtenment"?

I''m not sure what you mean, could you explain?

All through the Bible, attaining eternal life or being "reborn" refers to spiritual life,

That is because spiritual life is the only real life, as it is eternal. Physical material life is an illusion, in the sense that it is temporary but we think it is the be all end all and act to that end.

Bhagavad Gita;

Chapter 2, Verse 13.
As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.

Chapter 2, Verse 22.
As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.

and perfection refers to perfection of faith.

If you have faith, then that (faith) is already perfect. In the bible it is stated that faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen. Faith on its own, without philosophy, amounts to sentiment, and philosophy without faith, is but mental speculation. The perfection, is knowledge of the soul/self, and using that knowledge in the service of God, to arrive at this conclusion, we must have both faith and philosophy, especially in this day and age.

The truth is - salvation does not depend on our efforts. It is a gift purely from God.

Then if that is the case, what is the point of all the instructions given by God, if not for the faithful to attain salvation?

We will be judged according to our actions. I.e, the punishment will fit the sin.

When do you think judgement takes place?

Going to heaven does not depend on your holiness, but on God - who requires faith.

But surely, a holy person has the topmost faith?

We live and die in a body tainted by sin,

Then what happens when the body is extinguished?

Whatever you trust to God survives, and whatever you claim for yourself you lose.

Good point. The wages of sin is……….the gift of God is……….
So what happens to the soul after the disappearance of the body?

Reincarnation implies subjecting your life - all of it, past and future - to your own power of will, and not crediting God for any of it.

I’m afraid it is no such thing, it is simply a case of as you sow, so shall you reap, and nothing more, from a very simple perspective.
Personally, I think the bible was tampered with, specially to omit the transmigration of the soul, for if people understood that they are responsible for every single action they commit, it would be very hard to control them.

It's as if saying: "Thanks for creating me, but I'll take it from here. When I'm good enough, I'll come back to you."

It’s not, it is like enquiring; “why am I in this miserable, material existence, I want to be happy, I don’t want to be sick, or die. What can I do to alleviate this sickness?

If you see karma as a moral law, then showing anybody mercy or would put him at your debt, and make it even harder for him to attain moksha.

Your right, we are in debt, as you sow, so shall you reap. That is why it is said; “the WAGES of sin is death, think about it, wages mean you have to get paid, that is law.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Jenyar]

Whatever was believed before the Bible was "tampered with", has been changed anyway with the coming of Christ. He has paid for our debts of sin - the penalty of sin is death, and he paid the price in full. We have no debt left, and are considered holy through Him. We are both perfected and striving for perfection, if that makes any sense. It's like a prisoner who was freed, but now has to struggle to flee from the place where he was enslaved (I have that scene from Shawshank Redemption in mind).

We have found God but are still seeking Him. Our own efforts to attain freedom are true, but not for seeking freedom from death. That was the gift of mercy. If we could attain that freedom for ourselves, Jesus either had no purpose on earth, or was mistaken in his purpose and identity. But He was resurrected with the same body as the one he died with - with the scars to show for it.

As you say, we are trapped in our physical bodies, and we are ensnared by the trappings of sin - but death no longer has a hold on us (not once, or ever, if you believe in reincarnation).

We will be judged after our resurrection - according to our deads - whatever you have kept from Christ ("not confessed/not repented/persisted in sinning"). But whatever we have trusted to the One who conquered death will not die. We only need one life - the one given to us by God - the one we are conscious of at this moment - to realize that death has no hold on us. God preserves the eternal soul, not the sin. Sin has no power after death - how will it survive transmigration? It is carried over by life, by the birth of a new sinner every day. Maybe I should ask you how you define 'sin' first...

If physical life is only an illusion, why did God create and take part in it? In God there is no lie, and He would not be part of a lie. Or if the illusion is also real - why call it illusion? If you deny the reality of our existence, you also have to deny the reality of physical suffering and pain. Everything must be equally real to be equally valid. Or am I making some kind of philosophical mistake somewhere?

 

[atheroy]

in terms of the violence buddhism has caused (which is virtually nil i think) compared to the blood letting that christianity has caused and is still causing, yes, i reckon buddhism is superior to christianity based on those grounds.

just as a side note, christ didn't make any sacrifice to my knowledge- and why create the world if he suffered from it so much? that doesn't quite make sense to me, nor would it to an omnisicent being. so what's the deal? christianity just doesn't make sense to me. (this side note goes way back to a post on the first page).

and to jenyar above- jesus didn't pay any price. death is nothing to an immortal god.

 

[Jenyar]

Atheroy,
"in terms of violence" people in general have committed more atrocities than any specific group of people. True, more people have used some aspect of Christianity to justify their evil, than have used Buddhism. Some things just lend themselves more to providing a good excuse than others. But what people use to justify their actions, is no excuse for them. The 'religion' is almost irrelevant. The Chinese or Mongols did not have Christianity, and were no less cruel for the fact.

Your side note; If Jesus was immortal - how did he manage to suffer and die? Jesus is the visible image of God, the image we were created in. God raised Jesus, He showed Himself as servant and man - a visible initiation into God's creation and His plan for salvation. Jesus had the human properties of God and Adam, but was subjected to the injustice of the world, and died innocently. Just like an animal had to be sacrificed to provide leather for clothes (because Adam and Eve's sin made them realize their shame and nakedness), and food for sustainenace - to cover our shame Jesus had to die. All within God's will, but for our sake.

Another perspective: when a policeman or fireman dies saving someone from a criminal or a burning house, does their sacrifice (notice the word) mean any less if the victims would have died anyway from natural causes a year later? It is the sincerity and love shown at the required moment that makes the act valid. Should people be left to die because they will die someday anyway?