Can Buddhism be more reliable than Christianity?

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Jenyar

First off - thanks for taking the time and effort to discuss this. I guess we both could have given up on the subject a long time ago.

Why should we give up this subject, this is proper religous debate. How many proper religous debates are taking place on sci-forums at the moment?

but I truly feel you are reading things into the text that conform to your beliefs, rather than forming your beliefs out of what Jesus

I admit i have inferred, but my main points weren't so much out of belief of Jesus, even though i believe in the essence of Jesus, but taking what he says literally, and looking at it objectively.

I try to read every verse with the mindset you propose, to see how you might interpret it, and whether I have to adjust my own interpretation.

Interpretation is where the problems starts. There are moments when Jesus speaks in parables, we are aware of this, and whatever he says should be taken as such. When he is not speaking in parables, then we must take him at his word and what we don't understand, we seek help from someone who does.

At least, I am quite certain that my beliefs conform to what the disciples believed. Jesus is the one who keeps us blameless. There is no "karma" left to be payed off...

Karma: material activities for which one incurs subsequent reactions.
Simple, isn’t it? No mystery, no ghosts or hobgoblins, just a straight-ahead system, real and proper justice. If you act in someway which obstructs the balance of nature, then you must accept the reactions, whether good or bad.

However, you might hold that the disciples were themselves deceived, or mistaken like me (which of course creates other serious problems). I try to keep to what Jesus said himself as far as possible, but I quote other verses to show how my belief agrees with what his disciples believed.

From my low position, I do not see a problem with your faith, as I have said before it is admirable, but my debate with you is not about your faith, you have that covered, it is about knowledge of God. I believe the problem with “religion” is that we are divided instead of united. The same essence of God, which is in the Bible, is in the Qur’an, is in the Torah, is in the Vedas, they all speak of the same Person, but yet we cannot agree. Why?

The Bible makes it clear that man was made "a little lower than angels"(Ps.8.46),

Psalms; Of what importance is mankind, that you should pay attention to them,
8:5 and make them almost like the heavenly beings?"

Here you have interpreted “almost” as “lower”, Why?
It means the form of man is not quite like the form of angels, but almost.
In the Qur’an, there is a text where God (Allah), asks the angels to bow down and worship Adam, this was how Iblis (the satan) was rejected, therefore Adam is closer to God in quality.

(Heb.2:9) Just like that, man will also be placed above the angels after our death, when we have received our spiritual bodies. Please read Hebrews 2, at least.

By Qur’anic account, man, in his original state was placed above the angels but had fallen.

Here is a nice text from Matthew;

17:26 After he said, "From foreigners," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free. 17:27 But so that we don't offend them, go to the lake and throw out a hook. Take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth, you will find a four drachma coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you."

Can you see an explanation as to what the son of man means?

Matt. 24 (Jesus' words):
27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man [i.e., the Christ].

Do you understand it literally or do you understand it through interpretation.
.

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth [i.e. those who are not the Son of Man] will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

As Jesus does not say, “I will appear in the sky…….”, why should I assume that he means himself. Before Adam had fallen, he must have been great and glorious. It stands to reason right? Things started to go downhill when he fell. Either way he was a man, he was glorious, then he fell. If man can become glorious in the same way as Adam, the original man, was (son of man), then what’s to stop man being the “son of man” mentioned by Jesus.

These passages make it impossible for me to think Jesus meant "all of humanity" under the title 'Son of Man' - and therefore I conclude that it is an assumed title of some meaning, one that possibly includes your interpretation, but is definitely not exclusive to it.

“Son of Man” I believe, means son of the original Man, Adam, before he fell from grace. When God created Adam, He was perfect, so Man was perfect, and anybody who becomes like Adam, or Jesus, in quality, is automatically a son of the original, perfect man in mind, body and soul.

We are created in the image of God, and Jesus is the image of God. The difference is both subtle and profound.

If we are created in the image of God, then we have to be perfect, like the original cast. That means that what is meant by “image” is not only bodily features, but mind & intelligence as well.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Jenyar]

Thanks Jan,

Karma: material activities for which one incurs subsequent reactions. Simple, isn’t it? No mystery, no ghosts or hobgoblins, just a straight-ahead system, real and proper justice. If you act in someway which obstructs the balance of nature, then you must accept the reactions, whether good or bad.

Also see: sin.
Although the difference is in the mercy of God - He does not punish sin immediately, but gives us the chance to correct our lives (repent). Physical death could be seen as the symbolical end of this chance - the physical boundary that encloses our lives on earth. In both cases, however, I hold that in Jesus is the penultimate removal of sin/karma. God placed a spiritual boundary as well, judgement - and the "second death" is its result. Only a spiritual body, which is acceptable before God will escape this. God provided us an offering to give that cleanses us - makes us holy - for this judgement.

The same essence of God, which is in the Bible, is in the Qur’an, is in the Torah, is in the Vedas, they all speak of the same Person, but yet we cannot agree. Why?

Unless God has invested his essence (Spirit) only in those who believe, and as such - those who believe everything He wants them to believe. That is why there is no true/right religion, only a true/right God. Which leads me to Jesus, because there is no further boundary to physical existence than the physical death he died and from which God raised him with the same body made new/changed. There is no other person or religion that credibly offers hope.

But if you believe the spiritual transcends the physical naturally - for instance by transmigration, then physical death really is no boundary, and does not represent God's justice; your sin clings to your soul, unable to experience God's mercy, which is intended for your natural life.

Psalms; Of what importance is mankind, that you should pay attention to them,
8:5 and make them almost like the heavenly beings?"
Here you have interpreted “almost” as “lower”, Why?
It means the form of man is not quite like the form of angels, but almost.

The Hebrew words here are Ma'at chacer:
Ma'at (adj.): littleness, few, a little, fewness, like a little, within a little, almost,
Chacer (verb): to lack; to be lacking; to diminish, decrease; to cause to lack; to cause to be lacking.

Therefore I have reason to render it "God has (verb clause caused them to be lacking (adjective clause a little [not much, but nevertheless...]

Also, that the angels were asked to bow before Adam 1)shows him respect 2)tests the obedience/pride of the angels to God, but it does not follow that the angels were subjected to Adam's will or position - certainly they were subjected to God's will. The Bible says that "men will judge over angels". This also does not mean we were created above them, but that we were 'put in that position' by God.

17:26 After he said, "From foreigners," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free. 17:27 But so that we don't offend them, go to the lake and throw out a hook. Take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth, you will find a four drachma coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you."

(Matt.17)
"From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"
26"From others," Peter answered.
27"Then the sons are exempt,"

Certainly in this case it means their physical children - those who are born to the king. The royal families were exempt from tax (and still are, I think). You can hardly equate this with any text which mentions 'the Son of Man' explicitly in reference to a person. It is a special title, as I have shown from Matt.16 (see my previous post), as opposed to a general term 'sons'. Instead, compare the following passage:

John 18
36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me ["are my children"]."

27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man [i.e., the Christ].
Do you understand it literally or do you understand it through interpretation.

Literally, and from the context: the coming of the Son of man will be clearly visble from afar. Whether you will be able to see the person himself is not explicit, but not unreasonable to assume. It is clear that Jesus means no one will be able to doubt that the 'Son of Man' has returned.

As Jesus does not say, “I will appear in the sky…….”, why should I assume that he means himself.

Read my exposition of Matt. 24 again. The elipses might have made you think that verse 30 stands on its own. I have left out the quote from prophecy, but it does not indicate a new discussion.
Christ=Son of Man... and after two or three posts I'm sure I could show you that Jesus in fact regarded himself as the Christ, and led others to believe so.

The term is used each time with reverence and prophetic connotations. By using the term indirectly Jesus shows neither pride nor arrogance - he does not presume to lift himself above all testimony. To put this in perspective:

John 5
31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

The similarity between what Jesus said would happen to the "Son of Man", and what Jesus did and what happened to him, encouraged those who heard him to testify what we read in the gospels. Jesus trusted them to testify correctly, and so do I.

Now read what Jesus said, in perspective:

John 8
28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

If you believe the testimonies are false, then I cannot help you.

f we are created in the image of God, then we have to be perfect, like the original cast. That means that what is meant by “image” is not only bodily features, but mind as well.

By all indication, we were perfect. God created everything and said "it was good", i.e. exactly as He intended. Our bodies might be representations of everything life was intended to be.

However, unlike Jesus, Adam did not resist temptation and he sinned - becaming estranged from his Father's Will and intention. We degenerated physically and mentally. In the Bible God says at some point "my Spirit will not remain with people for so long" and He shortened our lifespans. When we learned how to contemplate evil, God distanced us from eternal life (the "trees"); our own progressive distance from God distanced us from the Source of our life.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Also, by knowing (becoming acquainted) with evil, our minds became tainted, less than perfect - because before God holiness is perfection.

The whole of the Old Testament is God teaching his people the way to holiness (Lev. 11:44). But it they would forever be trapped by sin and unable to attain perfection unless their sin could be forgiven, for "without holiness no one will see the Lord.(Heb.12:14). So Jesus came to take away our inequity and be that holiness for us (1 Peter 1:15) at judgement;
Hebrews 10:14
by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

though we still have to "take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me." (Philippians 3:13) by living a life worthy of Christ (Colossians 1:10), and worthy of God (1 Thess. 2:12).

Listen to what Moses asked his priests:
Leviticus 10:17
"Why didn't you eat the sin offering... It is most holy; it was given to you to take away the guilt of the community by making atonement for them before the LORD.

Jesus is that sin offering. That was his message. That is the Good News.