Can anyone prove the existence of God?
- Thread starter Emil
- Start date
You are inefficient. Try instead to get as much done in one post as possible.
Yosef,
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/number19.html
It seems the main claims for the miracle 19 is from Dr. Rashad Khalifa, a Muslim scholar living in the United States who wrote a book entitled "The Perpetual Miracle of Muhammad." According to his testimony he was taken up by a verse in the Quran (Sura 74:30) which reads: "Over it are nineteen."
I've copy-pasted a couple of examples from the article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His main theme is to show that exactly half (we are not quite sure what "exactly half" in this instance is supposed to prove) of the letters of the Arabic alphabet, i.e. fourteen letters, are used - some of them repeatedly - as "Mystic initials" at the beginning of 29 Suras. According to many old commentators, these initials (called "al-Mukkataat") are the initials of the scribes of the Suras concerned: ALM, ALMS, ALR, ALMR, KHYAS, TH, TSM, TS, YS, S, HM, HMASQ, Q, N. ALM, for example, stands for Amar Li Muh.
Dr. Khalifa, with the aid of his computer, discovered, however, that in certain Suras the sum of all the letters that are represented in the initials above the Sura are divisible by the mysterious 19. To give an example: Three initials (ALR) stand at the head of Sura 15. In the text of this Sura, the sum of the L's is 323 and this figure represents 17 x 19. In the case of Sura 68 which has the initial N above it, the sum of all the N's in the Sura is 133, i.e. 7 x 19. Then again if one were to add up all the letters of all Suras that have the initial A at the top, we would again have a number divisible by 19. Similarly the totals of all the letters of the initials above each individual Sura when added up are divisible by 19. In Sura 36, for instance, where the initials are Y and S, there are 48 S and 237 Y. Though neither of these sums can be divided by 19, the combined total is 15 x 19. In Dr. Khalifa's table we have, therefore, 14 vertical columns and their totals, representing the sums of each individual letter; and 29 horizontal columns where the totals are given of all letters as represented in the initials of each individual Sura.
Of the 121 figures given in toto in this table, including the 43 totals, 22 are divisible by 19, which is roughly one in six-and-a-half. Of the 78 figures that are given in the table (excluding the totals), six are divisible by 19. This is one out of every 13, which is hardly above average odds. We have to reject this as proof of divine action having been involved. Coming to the vertical totals (i.e. the sums of all letters represented by the initials of each individual Sura) we find a more spectacular result:
Eight of the twenty-nine totals are divisible by 19 which is about one in three-and-a-half. Much more convincing still are the totals of each individual letter represented in the 29 Suras: 8 of the 14 sums are divisible by 19. Do these figures constitute evidence of divine intervention? Bearing in mind the arguments contained in points 1 to 7 above, we would say impressive, yes; divine, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A rather striking statement in addition to the table we have just investigated is that the
"key to Mohammed's perpetual eternal miracle is found in the very first verse of the Quran which says: ‘In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful’ or as it reads in the Arabic: ‘Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim.’"
When we count the Arabic letters that make up this verse we find they total 19. Dr. Khalifa discovered that every word in this verse is mentioned a number of times in the Quran and these numbers are multiples of nineteen.
The first word "name" is allegedly found exactly 19 times in the entire Quran. The second word "Allah" in mentioned in the Quran 2698 times (19 x 142); the third word of the verse, "al-Rahman", is found in the Quran 57 times (3 x 19); and finally, the fourth word in the first Quranic verse, "al-Rahim", is mentioned 114 times (6 x 19) in the entire Quran. (so far Dr. Rashad Khalifa).
We are amazed at this statement, because every child in the Madressa school is aware that of the 114 Suras of the Quran, 113 begin with this verse "In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful." We do not understand how Dr. Khalifa can state that the word name is found in the whole Quran exactly 19 times or "al-Rahman" 52 times or "al-Rahim" 114 times. We suspect that the so-called "Bismillahs", i.e. the opening verses of almost all Suras have been expediently left out by Dr. Khalifa. Had he included them, his totals would no longer have been divisible by 19. We must conclude that Dr. Khalifa has purposely tried to mislead his readers when he states that the whole Quran is meant. He has left out the Bismillahs to suit his own purpose of providing divinity through deception.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I do like the example of the number 7 from the bible which seems far more impressive than the Islamic miracle of 19, but of course and I quote from the article
"It never persuaded a single Muslim, to our knowledge, to accept the challenge of receiving the Bible as the Word of God - although the evidence is more convincing than the findings of Dr. Khalifa. Why?"
Given almost any text and a computer it is not difficult to find patterns - do they have any divine meanings - doesn't really seem at all likely.
My biggest problem here is having the data that was used to derive these results and the time to check the claims. As I can see from several articles on the web deception and manipulation of the text is needed in many cases to make the claim. Assuming that this miracle 19 issue is not new I hoped to find others who have done the checking legwork: This article seems to be on eof the best -
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/number19.html
It seems the main claims for the miracle 19 is from Dr. Rashad Khalifa, a Muslim scholar living in the United States who wrote a book entitled "The Perpetual Miracle of Muhammad." According to his testimony he was taken up by a verse in the Quran (Sura 74:30) which reads: "Over it are nineteen."
I've copy-pasted a couple of examples from the article.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His main theme is to show that exactly half (we are not quite sure what "exactly half" in this instance is supposed to prove) of the letters of the Arabic alphabet, i.e. fourteen letters, are used - some of them repeatedly - as "Mystic initials" at the beginning of 29 Suras. According to many old commentators, these initials (called "al-Mukkataat") are the initials of the scribes of the Suras concerned: ALM, ALMS, ALR, ALMR, KHYAS, TH, TSM, TS, YS, S, HM, HMASQ, Q, N. ALM, for example, stands for Amar Li Muh.
Dr. Khalifa, with the aid of his computer, discovered, however, that in certain Suras the sum of all the letters that are represented in the initials above the Sura are divisible by the mysterious 19. To give an example: Three initials (ALR) stand at the head of Sura 15. In the text of this Sura, the sum of the L's is 323 and this figure represents 17 x 19. In the case of Sura 68 which has the initial N above it, the sum of all the N's in the Sura is 133, i.e. 7 x 19. Then again if one were to add up all the letters of all Suras that have the initial A at the top, we would again have a number divisible by 19. Similarly the totals of all the letters of the initials above each individual Sura when added up are divisible by 19. In Sura 36, for instance, where the initials are Y and S, there are 48 S and 237 Y. Though neither of these sums can be divided by 19, the combined total is 15 x 19. In Dr. Khalifa's table we have, therefore, 14 vertical columns and their totals, representing the sums of each individual letter; and 29 horizontal columns where the totals are given of all letters as represented in the initials of each individual Sura.
Of the 121 figures given in toto in this table, including the 43 totals, 22 are divisible by 19, which is roughly one in six-and-a-half. Of the 78 figures that are given in the table (excluding the totals), six are divisible by 19. This is one out of every 13, which is hardly above average odds. We have to reject this as proof of divine action having been involved. Coming to the vertical totals (i.e. the sums of all letters represented by the initials of each individual Sura) we find a more spectacular result:
Eight of the twenty-nine totals are divisible by 19 which is about one in three-and-a-half. Much more convincing still are the totals of each individual letter represented in the 29 Suras: 8 of the 14 sums are divisible by 19. Do these figures constitute evidence of divine intervention? Bearing in mind the arguments contained in points 1 to 7 above, we would say impressive, yes; divine, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A rather striking statement in addition to the table we have just investigated is that the
"key to Mohammed's perpetual eternal miracle is found in the very first verse of the Quran which says: ‘In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful’ or as it reads in the Arabic: ‘Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim.’"
When we count the Arabic letters that make up this verse we find they total 19. Dr. Khalifa discovered that every word in this verse is mentioned a number of times in the Quran and these numbers are multiples of nineteen.
The first word "name" is allegedly found exactly 19 times in the entire Quran. The second word "Allah" in mentioned in the Quran 2698 times (19 x 142); the third word of the verse, "al-Rahman", is found in the Quran 57 times (3 x 19); and finally, the fourth word in the first Quranic verse, "al-Rahim", is mentioned 114 times (6 x 19) in the entire Quran. (so far Dr. Rashad Khalifa).
We are amazed at this statement, because every child in the Madressa school is aware that of the 114 Suras of the Quran, 113 begin with this verse "In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful." We do not understand how Dr. Khalifa can state that the word name is found in the whole Quran exactly 19 times or "al-Rahman" 52 times or "al-Rahim" 114 times. We suspect that the so-called "Bismillahs", i.e. the opening verses of almost all Suras have been expediently left out by Dr. Khalifa. Had he included them, his totals would no longer have been divisible by 19. We must conclude that Dr. Khalifa has purposely tried to mislead his readers when he states that the whole Quran is meant. He has left out the Bismillahs to suit his own purpose of providing divinity through deception.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, I do like the example of the number 7 from the bible which seems far more impressive than the Islamic miracle of 19, but of course and I quote from the article
"It never persuaded a single Muslim, to our knowledge, to accept the challenge of receiving the Bible as the Word of God - although the evidence is more convincing than the findings of Dr. Khalifa. Why?"
Given almost any text and a computer it is not difficult to find patterns - do they have any divine meanings - doesn't really seem at all likely.
@cris
I understand that it can be difficult for a non-Arabic language speaker to verify the claims under "endless miracle of the first chapter" but I can tell you for sure that the information is correct and there is no whatsoever hidden tricks. Replacing the same letters making up the first chapter of the Holy Quran by letter values derived from the work of different independent researchers does indeed yield huge numbers that all are divisible by 19.
When it comes to Khalifa. That man made big claims. He said that he was talked to by arch angel Gabriel (ridiculous). He said he is a prophet and was assassinated in 1990 by people who found him very insulting to the Holy Quran. He said that some verses need not to be there in order for his math systems to work.
Several researchers in the Arab / Muslim world wrote about his fraud and he has done much damage to the field.
Here is the first chapter of the Holy Quran:
Here is a link for full translations with comments, so you understand it better:
http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=1&aya=1&trans=en-yusuf_ali&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00
These are not any words. They have great meanings and they summarize all the faith. At the same time incredible mathematical systems can be found in the revealed letters building this chapter.
I understand that it can be difficult for a non-Arabic language speaker to verify the claims under "endless miracle of the first chapter" but I can tell you for sure that the information is correct and there is no whatsoever hidden tricks. Replacing the same letters making up the first chapter of the Holy Quran by letter values derived from the work of different independent researchers does indeed yield huge numbers that all are divisible by 19.
When it comes to Khalifa. That man made big claims. He said that he was talked to by arch angel Gabriel (ridiculous). He said he is a prophet and was assassinated in 1990 by people who found him very insulting to the Holy Quran. He said that some verses need not to be there in order for his math systems to work.
Several researchers in the Arab / Muslim world wrote about his fraud and he has done much damage to the field.
Here is the first chapter of the Holy Quran:
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds (all creation); Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."
Here is a link for full translations with comments, so you understand it better:
http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=1&aya=1&trans=en-yusuf_ali&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00
These are not any words. They have great meanings and they summarize all the faith. At the same time incredible mathematical systems can be found in the revealed letters building this chapter.
May God guide you to His pathIt is simply the best gift one can get.
What God? Prove its (or as you claimed "His") existence, the topic of this thread is "Can anyone prove the existence of God?".
Let me guess, you can not. That's why you are trying to find numeric made up holyness for your Qur'an. And you will also claim that "God can not be proven with material things as it is above this material reality"; or you will claim that "God can only be felt by believers and no need to prove". And maybe you will show existing phenomenons and say that "everything is created by him".
All these mumbo jumbo tells only one thing to me: It doesn't exist. Nothing else.
By the way, stop telling that it's Arabic and for that non-Arabic speakers can not appreciate it: You are either talking about God's words that should be understood by everyone -as translations will not disturb the meaning-; or you are talking about an historical Arabic lullaby and it only binds those who can understand Arabic. Which one?
May God guide you to His path
There are no gods.
Yosef,
A god is no longer necessary as an explanation for anything. The god concept was devised by ancient peoples in ignorant times who did not have the advantages of scientific reasoning. It is now a redundant concept and can be safely discarded. Time to move on.
The only way one can be moving on with science is if one props it up with post dated rain cheques.
(probably warrants a thread " Can anyone prove how science renders god redundant" ....
)
Last edited:
correction
science provides a specificmethod for providing specificanswers
as for your ideas about religion, in the absence of premises or some sort of framework for an argument, you are just venting your opinions that say nothing about how science renders god redundant
:shrug:
Last edited:
That's the idea.
I, like atheist (agnostic), I want to live in peace, mutual respect and admire nature and to explore it.
I respect everyone regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion etc..
If your religion brings to you joy, happiness, understanding ,where I glad for you.
If you say that "You deserve to go to hell because you do not belong to our religion", I admit I feel offended, but I can get over it.
I do not know,( we atheists, who are ready to fight for your right to have a religious orientation and for the free expression of opinions,) what we have done wrong to you.
We've just annoy you with our skepticism.(Or you are upset because you not hold the State power and must all be equal?)
But do me explain how you arrived at interpretations of God so different, so important that you hate between you, theists, and even kill.
I can not understand: a God whose existence you can not prove, however, is so different from one religion to another, they deserved to kill for these differences.
Now try to leave my practice, logic world and argue with notions of yours religious world.
Why do you think God gave you the knowledge and the possibility of free choice?
When you doubt of morality, correctness of an action you one must be decided.
Each of you is the seed of God.You may not listen to anybody else than yourself.
Why? Because the assumption that Satan disguise in an atheist is naive and is an understatement Satan capacity.He can be in any disguise.Satan can be disguised as a priest, or a Biblical interpretation or even God Himself.Everyone says that communicate with God. But how do they know that is not Satan?Does Satan is on vacation?
I really think you can see his horns and his tail so you realize that you have in front of Satan?
Wrong.You never know,than to appeal to own trial what God gave you.
Until you sustain that in the name of God, everything is allowed, and should be treated differently the people who are your religion and who are not,for me, you will be immoral.
drawing from the knowledge basis of an atheist, what else could the answer be?
:shrug: