Both Muslim AND Christian?

[TruthSeeker]

I don't believe it was about fear. If it were about fear, why would Jesus bother to even tell His disciples what will happen?

That makes no sense. That's a total non-sequitur.

He was CLEARLY afraid. Read the scriptures when he's at the garden...

It seems to me Jesus is owning up to what the Father asked Him to do and not running away from it.

Of course! That doesn't mean he's afraid, though.

In fact, He tells Peter that Satan was a "stumbling block" to Him.

Of course. Because Satan was increasing his fear. The fear is an obstacle to his work.

Notice that it is merely a "stumbling block," nothing more. The description for fear would be something more than a "stumbling block."

Certainly not. That's precisely what fear is to him- a stumbling block.

If Peter truly loved Him, then Peter would have trusted in Him and what He said about the things to pass.

Peter was one of the disciples that most loved Him. It wasn't a matter of trust- it was a matter of love. He didn't want Jesus to go.

Instead, Peter was being selfish, thinking about himself in much the same way selfishness causes sin today.

Not necessarily selfish. I would say it was more self-centered then selfish. Fear is not a sin. A sin is when you willingly do something harmful to yourself or others. You can't totally control fear. It just happens. Of course, once you identify it, you can manage it, but fear is just a natural feeling.

In fact, Jesus rebukes His disciples by telling them not to be selfish.

He never said Peter was selfish. Where did he say that?

 

[TruthSeeker]

I think you are right about that, we must reconcile our inevitable divisions, like were you were born and what race you are. Those are inevitable divisions that must be reconciled, because are just superficial, and we must be bigger than that. Jealousy and envy you know…

Yes...

But I’m talking about man-made divisions; they make no sense to me man. If you are a Christian, it is more likely you won’t accept someone else being a Muslim, and vice versa.

Not all people are like that. I consider myself sort of Christian and I'm not divisive in any way.

When I was a kid, like 7 year old, my family was going for a political party, so I was all about their colors and stuff, because my family told me to go for them, that is the “good side”. I was so happy, because I was in the “good side”. Then it happened, one of my best friends was going for another political party, it was different than mine. He was no longer my friend for that period of time, we became like adversaries. I think is human nature and we learn it from infancy.

It is like the “dark side” and the “good side” in Star Wars, I keep thinking, they are all in the “dark side”. The "good side" is that of those who are not fighting at all.
In all the movies, the TV, everything, you see a “good side” and a “bad side”. You have to be in one of those, you can’t have both. But in my perspective, you are in the bad side just by choosing a side.

You learn this from infancy from a lot of sources, and if a kid is born in a Christian family, he will believe he is in the “good side”, and can’t mix with people in the “bad side”.

Yes, very sad...

 

[TruthSeeker]

The Quranic verse says Jesus was not God. The NT ones say he was.

Jesus himself said he was not God.

Jesus was called "teacher" by Mary...

 

[TruthSeeker]

While I do in fact believe that there are verses in the NT which refer to Jesus as God or at least divine in some way, I personally wouldn't use this verse as authoritative.

For one, it's a disputed passage and some early manuscripts do not contain it.

Yes. But most Christians don't know that because they don't study the history of their own religion.

Secondly, being "one" doesn't necessarily mean "equal in essence". In John, for instance, Jesus is portrayed as praying for his disciples to be one, and one in "us" (Jesus and "his Father"). This John passage seems to be about some kind of unity of purpose and not necessarily essence, unless someone wishes to say that Christians can be equal with God, in my opinion.

Precisely

 

[TruthSeeker]

The verse is still debatable among scholars. The whole point of this exercise is to expose your arrogance in matters of Biblical interpretation. There are certainly other verses, less under debate, that I could have use, but I used this one to expose you. I rest my case. - Christenstein

Do you ever use any logic?

 

[Tylonius]

Logic? In a Science Forum?

Why does it seem that the most fervent believers of any religion also tend to be the least informed about that religion?

First of all, what everyone is talking about is the religion –*and god – of Abraham. Islam is the progression of Christianity, which is the progression of Judaism. As Louis Farrakahn eloquently puts it, to be a Muslim is to also be a Christian and a Jew. The Qu'ran is essentially the "third testament" of a larger story, one that all centers around the same god.

The relationship is not unlike the one various sects of Christianity share. Catholics and Baptists are both considered to be Christians, despite the fact that in many ways, they are mutually exclusive of one another.

Secondly, I wish all of these so-called Christians would read their bibles. Not just the cherry-picked parts spoon-fed to them by others, but the whole thing, cover to cover (it's shorter than the new Harry Potter book). Jesus does not claim to be God, and the notion that they, along with the Holy Ghost, are one in the Trinity is not the same thing as being "one in the same."

In addition to reading the bible, most Christians could stand to read the history of their bible,so that they may understand the differences between their version and others (and yes, there are many). Perhaps then, they would understand concepts like the fact that Mary Magdalene was also called Mariam.

Finally, open your minds just a bit. You don't really think your god gave you an amazing brain just so you could think small with it, do you? Embrace the idea that maybe evolution is how creation happened.

Consider that the books were written (and edited repeatedly) by men, so maybe the whole thing in Leviticus about homosexuality being an abomination is no more valid than the parts about shaving, shrimp, working on Saturday or women leaving the house when they have their periods being equally abominable.

Instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us from one another (which thoroughly misses the point of both Christianity and Islam), embrace the similarities, of which there are clearly more than you think. Primarily: I and my father are one, as are we all, and the kingdom of heaven is inside of us.

So yes, Sandy, to get back to your question from twelve pages ago, you can be both and without contradiction; or at least no more than you'll find within your own religion.

 

[TruthSeeker]

:bravo:

Welcome

 

[sandy]

Why does it seem that the most fervent believers of any religion also tend to be the least informed about that religion?

First of all, what everyone is talking about is the religion –*and god – of Abraham. Islam is the progression of Christianity, which is the progression of Judaism. As Louis Farrakahn eloquently puts it, to be a Muslim is to also be a Christian and a Jew. The Qu'ran is essentially the "third testament" of a larger story, one that all centers around the same god.

The relationship is not unlike the one various sects of Christianity share. Catholics and Baptists are both considered to be Christians, despite the fact that in many ways, they are mutually exclusive of one another.

Secondly, I wish all of these so-called Christians would read their bibles. Not just the cherry-picked parts spoon-fed to them by others, but the whole thing, cover to cover (it's shorter than the new Harry Potter book). Jesus does not claim to be God, and the notion that they, along with the Holy Ghost, are one in the Trinity is not the same thing as being "one in the same."

In addition to reading the bible, most Christians could stand to read the history of their bible,so that they may understand the differences between their version and others (and yes, there are many). Perhaps then, they would understand concepts like the fact that Mary Magdalene was also called Mariam.

Finally, open your minds just a bit. You don't really think your god gave you an amazing brain just so you could think small with it, do you? Embrace the idea that maybe evolution is how creation happened.

Consider that the books were written (and edited repeatedly) by men, so maybe the whole thing in Leviticus about homosexuality being an abomination is no more valid than the parts about shaving, shrimp, working on Saturday or women leaving the house when they have their periods being equally abominable.

Instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us from one another (which thoroughly misses the point of both Christianity and Islam), embrace the similarities, of which there are clearly more than you think. Primarily: I and my father are one, as are we all, and the kingdom of heaven is inside of us.

So yes, Sandy, to get back to your question from twelve pages ago, you can be both and without contradiction; or at least no more than you'll find within your own religion.

No, sock puppet. Most of what you said is not true.

 

[Kadark]

sandy: Where is he wrong?

 

[sandy]

Paragraph three was the only correct one. I don't feel like dissecting the sock puppet's post. Not worth my time.

 

[Kadark]

Well, if you aren't going to take the time to say why he or she is wrong, then you might as well keep perfectly silent.

And why do you call him or her 'sock puppet'?

 

[(Q)]

Paragraph three was the only correct one. I don't feel like dissecting the sock puppet's post. Not worth my time.

Then, you are only here to preach your version of the gospel. That is certainly not worth anyones time.

 

[Orleander]

oooo, sandy got served!
EXCELLENT post Tylonius!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Will she ever listen to anyone?

Oh God! Why do You create people like sandy!?

 

[Tylonius]

As usual, when members of the radical right –*and I believe it is safe to call Sandy's perspectives radical –*find their unsupported views challenged, they respond by attacking the challenger.

It's also ironic that she chooses to call me a "sock puppet." I believe that mindlessly mouthing the views of others, with no thought of one's own, better describes her postings than mine.

However, if she would like to refute any part of my post, I welcome the discussion. I am certainly not above the notion that I may be wrong about something. She'll have to do better than just calling me names, though –*she'll have to actually prove it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why does it seem that the most fervent believers of any religion also tend to be the least informed about that religion?

First of all, what everyone is talking about is the religion –*and god – of Abraham. Islam is the progression of Christianity, which is the progression of Judaism. As Louis Farrakahn eloquently puts it, to be a Muslim is to also be a Christian and a Jew. The Qu'ran is essentially the "third testament" of a larger story, one that all centers around the same god.

The relationship is not unlike the one various sects of Christianity share. Catholics and Baptists are both considered to be Christians, despite the fact that in many ways, they are mutually exclusive of one another.

Secondly, I wish all of these so-called Christians would read their bibles. Not just the cherry-picked parts spoon-fed to them by others, but the whole thing, cover to cover (it's shorter than the new Harry Potter book). Jesus does not claim to be God, and the notion that they, along with the Holy Ghost, are one in the Trinity is not the same thing as being "one in the same."

In addition to reading the bible, most Christians could stand to read the history of their bible,so that they may understand the differences between their version and others (and yes, there are many). Perhaps then, they would understand concepts like the fact that Mary Magdalene was also called Mariam.

Finally, open your minds just a bit. You don't really think your god gave you an amazing brain just so you could think small with it, do you? Embrace the idea that maybe evolution is how creation happened.

Consider that the books were written (and edited repeatedly) by men, so maybe the whole thing in Leviticus about homosexuality being an abomination is no more valid than the parts about shaving, shrimp, working on Saturday or women leaving the house when they have their periods being equally abominable.

Instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us from one another (which thoroughly misses the point of both Christianity and Islam), embrace the similarities, of which there are clearly more than you think. Primarily: I and my father are one, as are we all, and the kingdom of heaven is inside of us.

So yes, Sandy, to get back to your question from twelve pages ago, you can be both and without contradiction; or at least no more than you'll find within your own religion.

Nice to meet you too.

 

[Tylonius]

Nice to meet you too.

Thanks!

Nice to meet everyone.

 

[TruthSeeker]

It's also ironic that she chooses to call me a "sock puppet." I believe that mindlessly mouthing the views of others, with no thought of one's own, better describes her postings than mine.

A "sock puppet" is, basically, someone that registers with two names and talks with himself to prove his point.

Just friendly letting you know the rules of this madhouse...

 

[ashura]

Thanks!

Nice to meet everyone.

I liked your post Tylonius, but I have some questions about it. For one, the idea of invalidating a part of the Bible, or the Quran. If you can invalidate one part on a whim, simply because it was written by men, what stops you from invalidating the entire thing?

 

[Tylonius]

If you can invalidate one part on a whim, simply because it was written by men, what stops you from invalidating the entire thing?

We aren't invalidating anything.

The point I was trying to make was that it was written by men, and even devout and conscientious men are fallible and make mistakes in copying and translating. Others are susceptible to temptations of power –*and what's more powerful than having some control over what a bible says?

So maybe we shouldn't try to be so literal, and instead try to glean the meaning.

Take Leviticus, for example. It is the foundation of Mosaic and Davidic law. It not only concerns ritual laws, but also establishes guidelines of health, hygiene and public welfare. At the time, these were very important rules. An outbreak of mildew or dysentery in a desert community would be devastating. Rabbis were trained to address such problems, and the people were directed to take specific steps to avoid them.

However, much of Mosaic and Davidic law has been since disregarded as "obsolete," and rightly so. Improvements in civilization, agriculture, architecture, sanitation and the like have made calling a rabbi when you have mildew in your bathtub no longer necessary. But the spirit of the law remains: It is your responsibility to show your god your appreciation by taking care of your health, home and community.

That's why reading the whole thing, not just the bumper stickers, is so important.

The people that truly invalidate the christian bible are the "cafeteria christians," of which there are many. They want to be free of 90% of the canon of Mosaic law –*from which antinomianism frees them entirely, anyway –*yet cling to the remaining 10% that they believe validates their bigotry.