BOOK DEBATE: Hitler and Christianity
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American WWII propaganda painted Nazi Germany as an atheist country. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Germany was protestant, Hitler followed the teachings of Luther and Italy's state religion under Mussolini was Catholic.
Of course organized Christianity and Fascism go hand in hand. Notice I said "organized" Christianity.
Not individual belief in Christian principals and the message of Christ, but it is organized Christianity as a world power that is fascist.
America was also a fascist nation then, and before WWII sided with the European fascist powers like Germany and Italy against communism in the Soviet Union right up until Germany attacked the U.S. in New York in June 1942.
The multi-national corporations like GM, Ford, and General Electric had interests on both sides of the Atlantic.
Germany modeled it's Eugenics program after the U.S. who had the only legal sterilization program in the world in 1907.
Hitler got some of his anti-Semitic inspiration from the teachings of Martin Luther and from the American Henry Ford who wrote a book that served as Hitler's blueprint for his actions against the Jews. Ford was the only American mentioned in "Mein Kampf".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew
The real 20th century was not quite what all the John Wayne movies and Frank Capra's war propaganda films had our parents and grandparents believing.
Documents only released 50 years later in 1994 revealed FDR provoked the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor intentionally to bend American pacifism to support for the war and gain the appearance of having the moral high ground.
In 1892 the Pledge of Allegiance was written for the 400th anniversary of Columbus day festivals.
It included teaching American school children the fascist "Nazi" military salute of the arm extended, palm forward gesture.
This was actually the Roman salute for "hail Caesar" that was adopted by the Nazi's to become "hail Hitler".
This fascist military salute continued in American schoolrooms until 1942 when Hitler made it's use in America unpopular.
Then in 1954 the words "under God" were added...The connection between organized religion and fascism is undeniable.
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm
Germany was protestant, Hitler followed the teachings of Luther and Italy's state religion under Mussolini was Catholic.
Of course organized Christianity and Fascism go hand in hand. Notice I said "organized" Christianity.
Not individual belief in Christian principals and the message of Christ, but it is organized Christianity as a world power that is fascist.
America was also a fascist nation then, and before WWII sided with the European fascist powers like Germany and Italy against communism in the Soviet Union right up until Germany attacked the U.S. in New York in June 1942.
The multi-national corporations like GM, Ford, and General Electric had interests on both sides of the Atlantic.
Germany modeled it's Eugenics program after the U.S. who had the only legal sterilization program in the world in 1907.
Hitler got some of his anti-Semitic inspiration from the teachings of Martin Luther and from the American Henry Ford who wrote a book that served as Hitler's blueprint for his actions against the Jews. Ford was the only American mentioned in "Mein Kampf".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew
The real 20th century was not quite what all the John Wayne movies and Frank Capra's war propaganda films had our parents and grandparents believing.
Documents only released 50 years later in 1994 revealed FDR provoked the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor intentionally to bend American pacifism to support for the war and gain the appearance of having the moral high ground.
In 1892 the Pledge of Allegiance was written for the 400th anniversary of Columbus day festivals.
It included teaching American school children the fascist "Nazi" military salute of the arm extended, palm forward gesture.
This was actually the Roman salute for "hail Caesar" that was adopted by the Nazi's to become "hail Hitler".
This fascist military salute continued in American schoolrooms until 1942 when Hitler made it's use in America unpopular.
Then in 1954 the words "under God" were added...The connection between organized religion and fascism is undeniable.
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm
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This book refutes it,
The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945
Analyzing the previously unexplored religious views of the Nazi elite, Richard Steigmann-Gall argues against the consensus that Nazism as a whole was either unrelated to Christianity or actively opposed to it. He demonstrates that many participants in the Nazi movement believed that the contours of their ideology were based on a Christian understanding of Germany's ills and their cure. A program usually regarded as secular in inspiration - the creation of a racialist 'people's community' embracing antisemitism, antiliberalism and anti-Marxism - was, for these Nazis, conceived in explicitly Christian terms. His examination centers on the concept of 'positive Christianity,' a religion espoused by many members of the party leadership. He also explores the struggle the 'positive Christians' waged with the party's paganists - those who rejected Christianity in toto as foreign and corrupting - and demonstrates that this was not just a conflict over religion, but over the very meaning of Nazi ideology itself.
The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945
Analyzing the previously unexplored religious views of the Nazi elite, Richard Steigmann-Gall argues against the consensus that Nazism as a whole was either unrelated to Christianity or actively opposed to it. He demonstrates that many participants in the Nazi movement believed that the contours of their ideology were based on a Christian understanding of Germany's ills and their cure. A program usually regarded as secular in inspiration - the creation of a racialist 'people's community' embracing antisemitism, antiliberalism and anti-Marxism - was, for these Nazis, conceived in explicitly Christian terms. His examination centers on the concept of 'positive Christianity,' a religion espoused by many members of the party leadership. He also explores the struggle the 'positive Christians' waged with the party's paganists - those who rejected Christianity in toto as foreign and corrupting - and demonstrates that this was not just a conflict over religion, but over the very meaning of Nazi ideology itself.
The German protestant Christian reformer Martin Luther somewhat advocated the extermination of the Jews.
It may be connected to the fact the Jews were indirectly responsible for the Roman crucifixion of Christ and they also said "let His blood be upon us".
Note he was just a reformer not a major prophet, but his was the first major move out of Catholicism.
Jesus also directly said they were of "their father the devil", but he was referring to their false religious leaders, not all Jews in general.
Some Christians, especially German Lutherans may take that statement out of context to literally be an invitation for "open season" on the Jews.
They overlook the fact the Bible also states God blinded the Jews in order to save life.
The Gentiles were included in the salvation Christ made possible because of this blinding of the Jews and God said He would not forget them and return to open their eyes after the Gentile dispensation is finished.
Again, there is a difference between what effect the actual message of Christ has upon individuals who believe in Christian principals, and the effect organized religions such as Christianity that since Nimrod in Babylon have been used as an instrument for war have upon humanity as a whole .
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From what I understand, it was believed by European Christians that the Jews were at fault because they didn't except the message of Jesus (as) or him being messiah and along with this it was believed it was the Jews whom killed him thus they were guilty of deicide. As for Martin Luther, I think initially he didn't hate the Jews but when they didn't accept the message of Jesus (as) and went on to practice their own faith he became enraged and that's when his anti-Jewish beliefs/comments started. I also agree that this anti-Jew business of the Nazis and Hitler wasn't new and was an continuation of historical European prejudice. I think it should also be pointed out also that after WWII (I believe) the Catholic church officially rejected and denounced the charge of deicide and such against the Jews and the Luthern church rejected and denounced the anti-Jewish comments/beliefs of Martin Luther.
I don't direct this to today's genuine christians and their beliefs, but we are all shakled in straight jackets and in quick sand when it comes to our inherited beleifs - to the extent we have no choice but to dismiss any antithesis - even those factually historical.
We can very simply connect Luther's writings and Mein Kamp - almost word for word and page for page, and Luther's writings are self described as representing the Gospels' teachings. One cannot say this is his own interpretation of the Gospel either - all of Europe's Christians accepted it and declared him a Saint, as was the case previously under the Catholic church with Isabela. Christianity in Europe [outside America] is a 'subject to' religion - subject to the Jews being bad guys who kill messiahs and prophets and grin with beedy eyes and long noses of a lone man's death [Mad "2000 lashes per frame" Mel] - to the extent there is no possibility to skirt around this hidous report without totally destroying the core doctrines the Gospels rests upon. Can anyone please show an example of the Gospel's claims outside of the Gospels - or from any place else they like in history - did any Christians demand such - why not, was the law for proof fullfilled away?
This story can be connected to the original formation of the religion, whereby Roman Nazis who genocided over a million in a short span of a few months, before the very eyes of the alledged Apostles - were still declared glorious - and the massacred Jews blamed for the heinous and blasphemous premise of deicide - and not a whimper in the Gospels of this Roman genocide: arguably it would soften the impact of one Jew sacrificing himself for others. This even when the Gospel says the Romans held the power and their hands crucified Jesus - and 100s of 1000s of other Jews. Can there be anything more ludicrous than surmising that Jews held under the sword of Rome - could conspire to impress Rome - is that not like saying the Jews inspired Hitler as well? How such a story as the Gospels ever got as far as a small cubit is one of the great mysteries of humanity. But if someone is telling the world's most attrocious fibs - its answer may lie more on enforced belief than factual historicity. It is equally true that Islam emulated Christianity in enforced belief and death threats to leaving the belief - yet try convincing a Muslim the Gospels is true!
Luther is the kind of saint a people deserve - they remained silent of his deeds.
Ah: you guys mean the Blood Curse. That's indeed prejudicial in its way, although it doesn't say "persecute the living fuck out of them for it". It's scriptural, but I don't think it's doctrinal as the greater message of Christianity. I guess my break with that comes at the very least with Luther; he was a great Reformationist, but the anti-Semitism was deplorable.
Germany a Christian country?
Is that why Germany in the 20s had the largest and best organized Communist party in Europe, with millions voting for Communist candidates?
I am not saying Germany was an atheist country, but it was very modern and secular.
Were Bert Brecht, Lotte Lenya, Georg Grosz, and Marlene Dietrich Christians?
Were Mao, Stalin,and Lenin Christians? Is Billy Graham a fascist?
Luther did not believe that the Aryans were the master race, that Germany should dominate the world, that Jews were a threat to Aryan racial purity.None of Hitler's main ideas about the Jewish menace are found in Luther.
Is that why Germany in the 20s had the largest and best organized Communist party in Europe, with millions voting for Communist candidates?
I am not saying Germany was an atheist country, but it was very modern and secular.
Were Bert Brecht, Lotte Lenya, Georg Grosz, and Marlene Dietrich Christians?
Were Mao, Stalin,and Lenin Christians? Is Billy Graham a fascist?
Luther did not believe that the Aryans were the master race, that Germany should dominate the world, that Jews were a threat to Aryan racial purity.None of Hitler's main ideas about the Jewish menace are found in Luther.
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Steigmann-Gall's book distorts the facts
S-G's book is a false book full of errors, misstatements of fact, and distortions. He says nothing about the many secular thinkers who openly rejected the bible and presented many ideas fundamental to National Socialism.
There are no teachings of Christ and the apostles that can be linked to Hitler's bizarre ideology, that had nothing to do with Christianity.
Show me one teaching in the Sermon on the Mount that has anything to do with Hitler.
S-G is ignorant of the fact that Hitler liked to use religious language on occasion to make people think he was respectable. In private, he despised Christianity as a religion for weaklings, and believed life was a Darwinian struggle in which people were only animals, ethics did not apply, and the strong survived and the weak died.
S-G's book is a false book full of errors, misstatements of fact, and distortions. He says nothing about the many secular thinkers who openly rejected the bible and presented many ideas fundamental to National Socialism.
There are no teachings of Christ and the apostles that can be linked to Hitler's bizarre ideology, that had nothing to do with Christianity.
Show me one teaching in the Sermon on the Mount that has anything to do with Hitler.
S-G is ignorant of the fact that Hitler liked to use religious language on occasion to make people think he was respectable. In private, he despised Christianity as a religion for weaklings, and believed life was a Darwinian struggle in which people were only animals, ethics did not apply, and the strong survived and the weak died.
There are none, except for a blind hostility to Christianity that makes people eager to believe the worst without study or reflection.
In all of his long and influential life Luther never took any actions to harm the Jews. If he hadn't lashed out in anger at the end of his life in an uncharacteristic tract it would be easy to see that all of the basic teachings of the Reformation had nothing to do with Hitler's bizarre ideology that only emerged centuries later in a totallydifferent context.
Norway, Denmark, and Holland had strong Protestant and even Lutheran traditions, and in no countires during the war were Jews given more support and help.
Also, Luther's reasons for anger at the Jews had nothing to do with the secular anti-Semitism that emerged in the 18th and 19th centuries.
You shouldlook into the modern secular anti-Semitism of Schopenhauer, Fichte, Kant, Wagner, and Nietzsche. Their reasons for hostility to Jews were vastly different.Nietzsche blamed the Jews for infecting Europe with the false values of Christianity.
The first half of the first sentence is totally false. Luther did not believe that the Jews were a threat to the purity of the Aryan race; that they were plotting to rule the world; that the blond blue-eyed Aryans were the master race; that life was a Darwinian struggle in which people were only animals.
I wonder if the poster has even read Luther and Hitler at all, but is just repeating what he heard somewhere.
Yes, that is my book referred to in the first post. My points are that biblical Christianity, as taught by Christ and the apostles, and as practiced of millions of people over the centuries, has nothing to do with the ideology of Hitler that emerged out of well over a century of German secular thought.
I thought this tidbit from that website was hilarious:
"Informed Christians..."
:roflmao:
I never said the ideological basis for Nazism and that validated it was limited to Christianity. I also think the Nazis misinterpreted Nietzsche. Have you ever read The Case of Wagner: A Musicians' Problem? In it Nietzsche rebukes Wagner and his anti-Semitism.
Humanity is in a prison of mutually exclusive belief premises, and we know as a fact all beliefs cannot be right. When push comes to shove - it points only to disaster. Only a tolerence owing to inability and self preservation stops mass murder from happening at any given time: Christians will kill all others and the others will kill all christians - if each had their way - and all will believe they are doing something good and assisting a handicaped Creator.
There is no alternative to humanity existing only via laws in the final analysis - this means all messengers will be forgotten for their messages - and their messages will remain only if they are conducive to all humanity equally - without any names. Therein is the test - therein is the meaning of what one Abraham introudced to humanity when he fleed his country's beliefs - with a 'wanted!' poster for his life hung on all sherrif's counties. But politicking was also ushered in as a testing counter balance. The rest is upto humanity - being an Abraham is a threshold leap greater than MC2 and any other premise.