Big Bang Evidence for God

[Mazulu]

The question is likely invalid. Why do you think that *nothing* (i.e. the absence of everything and anything) is a real entity? Have you ever seen any evidence that supports it's existence? The point of course is that *nothing* doesn't appear to be real and that invalidates any question that makes use of it. Nobody knows enough about how reality operates to show what happened "prior" to t=0 of our universe. The best we can do is model our understanding and see if testing those models pans out.

I have a dog in the fight (so the expression goes). I want to see a Star Trek looking future where we speed across the galaxy at muliples of c. But it doesn't look like the physics of our universe will permit that. Sure there is the Alcubierre drive, which requires that we convert Jupiter to pure energy, but it looks too awkard to be a real engineering possiblity.

I threw out the idea that maybe the big bang was an explosion in some kind of "universe nursery". A universe nursery would give birth to other universes (as well as ours) with laws of physics that might be more helpful. So we could build a spaceship, move it to another universe with a higher speed of light, zip on over to somewhere far away, and then re-enter this universe.

I wish the physics community would move in that direction. Instead, you all argue about the definition of nothingness and whether or not a nothingness can explain the big bang without being too much of anything that isn't supposed to exist. Or else you throw the question out and label the questioner as crazy.

 

[Mazulu]

Quite the little terrorist aren't you. (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!)
Wow, just wow...

Yup! I hold your feet to the fire with words and inconvenient truths and facts. Oh no!!!

 

[gmilam]

Yup! I hold your feet to the fire with words and inconvenient truths and facts. Oh no!!!

Words - maybe.
Truths & Facts - doubtful.

But you would joyfully see people burn in eternal torment.

 

[Cheezle]

I keep asking: how does a big bang come from nothing. If "God created it" is too unpalatable, then what? You posted a video that someone thinks after a Google of years, a new big bang happens. But the idea sounds contrived and awkward. Physicists want to hijack the Genesis story from the Bible, which is inspiring and beautiful, and replace it with something wacko, confusing, unbalanced, like a bad acid trip. Physicists still have nothing that explains where the physics constants came from or where all that energy came from in the first place.

Thank God most of the laypersons who read about this stuff don't notice how badly the scientific community is sputtering right now. Most people are content with some mixture of the Bible, UFO's, the really gifted psychics, and their own mystical experiences.

Stephen Hawking said that asking what was before the big bang was like asking what is north of the north pole. If you walk north and reach the north pole that is it. You are there. There is no more north. Your question is meaningless. Time=zero is like the north pole. Perhaps what causes your question to sound like a paradox is that you always include a presumptive verb; created from/by or comes from, that implies there was this nothing that somehow became something. It is something that is beyond our experience, but not understanding something does not mean it is false. If time and space were "nonexistent before the start", how could creation happen? Creation or coming into being requires time and space. Could the universe happen? Obviously yes.

I heard a comic tell a story about how his child broke a vase and then denied it. He asked her if she broke it and she said no. He asked her who did break it and she said 'a man'. He asked her where the man was and she said he ran away. He said he did not see anyone come through the door and she said he left through the window. You see Mazulu, your assigning the creation of the universe to God is like that little girl saying it was some unknown man that broke the vase and jumped out the window. It is a very unlikely story but provides a seemingly convenient alibi. But it does not really explain anything, because it causes more questions than it answers. Did God exist before the Big Bang, in a no-place and no-time kind of way? How does that work? Did God always exist or did some meta-God create him? As Rhaedas stated, are we allowed to ask these questions, and if so how are the lack of answers of any more use than just calling it the Big Bang? Your God explanation is meaningless. It only offers a proxy intermediate step in the "process".

If there was time before the Big Bang then was it infinite in extent? Then why did God wait an infinite amount of time before he created our universe? Infinite time is no more palatable than an origin (t=0) for space and time. No more palatable than time and space that wraps around in a circular fashion. A circular universe would mean that God created himself? Or that he was some how a feature of the universe. There are currently no very palatable answers, for Gods or Big Bangs. But we have only been working on the Big Bang answer for about 100 years. A single man can live longer than that. Give it some time. Maybe we have just not asked the right questions yet. Maybe a key discovery is coming. God is not really an answer, now is it? Genesis is obviously just a story. Seven days and snakes handing out apples is just not a likely explanation.

 

[Mazulu]

Words - maybe. Truths & Facts - doubtful. But you would joyfully see people burn in eternal torment.

Nobody is going to burn in the afterlife. I don't wish that on anybody. Having said that, I didn't create the universe so I don't enforce its rules. Since physicists are not willing to speculate about where a singularity (the big bang) might have come from, then we're back to Genesis where God claims to have created everything.

As far as I know, it is indeed a the truth and a fact that the physics community does not know where the big bang came from.

 

[Mazulu]

We wouldn't have to go through this game of (defaults to Christian God/Hell for atheists) battle if you would all stop and take the question seriously. You can accept the Stephen Hawking's answer, "there is nothing north of north" and dodge the question. But then I'll just throw the Biblical claim that God created it back in your face.

I have already suggested that our universe (the big bang) came from a "universe nursery" that spits out singularities. Each singularity is different (different physics constants), possibility different numbers of dimensions, maybe different in other ways.

But that explanation has gone unnoticed.

 

[arauca]

Why does anything before the beginning of the universe have to be "supernatural"?

And there is a natural scientific equivalence to the concept of a supernatural god. It is called Potential. Look it up.


I take esponsibility for my own actions. I'll never claim, god or the devil made me do it. What you see is what you get and IMO, if you are religious you have something to hide.

How do you express by taking resolvability, do you just I am responsible and go to sleep, and that it. Do you get any remorse for your wring doing ?

 

[arauca]

This belongs in the religious forum. It has nothing to do with science and doesn't rise to the level of pseudoscience. There's nothing Mazulu has posted except 'I believe in Dog and you should too".

Would you stop crying and bring some evidence how B.B. started from nothing

 

[Write4U]

We wouldn't have to go through this game of (defaults to Christian God/Hell for atheists) battle if you would all stop and take the question seriously. You can accept the Stephen Hawking's answer, "there is nothing north of north" and dodge the question. But then I'll just throw the Biblical claim that God created it back in your face.

And the bible carries a lot of Authority (mine = about 3 lbs)

I have already suggested that our universe (the big bang) came from a "universe nursery" that spits out singularities. Each singularity is different (different physics constants), possibility different numbers of dimensions, maybe different in other ways.

And where did the nursery come from, a Universal nursery nursery?

But that explanation has gone unnoticed.

What are you talking about? The world of science is abuzz with the new insights into the structure and nature of the universe and its beginning. It is the scriptures which are becoming totally irrelevant in the world of science.
And as it should be you should be free to practice your religion in a spiritual way, that is its function. Just don't mess with science, please!!

 

[Write4U]

And what do you do when you realize you have done something wrong? Resolvability? There never is, only the resolve to do better next time.
Are you implying the bible places an extra measure of "guilt" (original sin) to the reader?

 

[AlexG]

Would you stop crying and bring some evidence how B.B. started from nothing

Whenever science says 'we don't know yet', the religious zealots like you and Maz jump in and say 'if you don't know, god must have done it'.

That's a really dumb thing to say.

 

[Mazulu]

And where did the nursery come from, a Universal nursery nursery?

There is not enough information to speculate that far. As it is, all we have is this singularity-big bang explosion that happened for no apparent reason and without the existence of anything to happen in.

Well, if nobody knows and nobody is willing to speculate (or able to speculate), I guess that's it.

 

[Write4U]

There is not enough information to speculate that far. As it is, all we have is this singularity-big bang explosion that happened for no apparent reason and without the existence of anything to happen in.

Well, if nobody knows and nobody is willing to speculate (or able to speculate), I guess that's it.

That's it for you, you already have the answer, no?
But if you are truly interested, there are several models of how the universe could emerge from nothing.

You can start with the concept of Potential which is the scientific equivalent of god in all respects, except Potential does not require intelligence.

Pay attention. This statement is demonstrably true. "Before the Big Bang there was potential".

 

[pywakit]

Would you stop crying and bring some evidence how B.B. started from nothing

This thread epitomizes the pointlessness of attempting rational debate and/or discussion with the devout.

arauca, if you have some evidence that gods in general, or 'your' god exists then feel free to share it.

Christianity is (ultimately) a cosmological model. In brief, people (essentially no different than you or me) made claims about 2,000 years ago relative to the beginnings, form, structure and processes of our universe. They said a god did it. This was not all that extraordinary at the time, as most people believed in the existence of gods and other supernatural phenomena.

But knowing what we know today, these are extraordinary claims.

For example, in the Bible, God claims to make the wind blow (wherever and whenever ... at will). To make it rain ... or not rain (at will). Snow, thunder, lightening, tornadoes, tides, whatever ... In fact, anything and everything that happens (outside of human control) happens because he wants it to.

Eventually we found out that this was incorrect.

In another glaring error, the Catholic church (having an apparent monopoly on two-way communication with God) insisted on 'good' authority that the sun revolved around the earth. And these holiest of holy people didn't want to hear any arguments. The Bible made it quite clear that earth was the only corporeal 'place' in the universe, made especially for us, so everything must revolve around the earth. Certainly can't fault their logic ... if not their methods for discouraging debate ... but as we all know, they were stupidly incorrect.

Kind of silly, don't you think, that in all their conversations with God/Jesus that this didn't come up.

"By the way Clement, I couldn't help but notice that you burned Bruno at the stake last week for heresy."

"Yes, your Holiness. He was a very dangerous man. We had to protect the Faith. I'm sure you understand. Why, he even had the audacity to suggest there were other worlds in the universe! The gall! How dare he question your Word?"

"Uhh, well Clement, he was right. There are. Sorry I forgot to mention this before ..."

"It says so in the Bible" is not evidence. You think it is, of course, but it was (and remains) the indoctrination process which prevents you from looking at this rationally. "I believe it" is also not evidence. To paraphrase Carl Sagan (I think) ... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

You have none, extraordinary or otherwise.

I'm sure you won't understand this either, but it is ludicrous to expect science to have every answer ... now. It is equally ludicrous to claim if science hasn't got the answers now, then we are left with no alternative but to accept the Christian god exists and the Bible is correct.

I asked you (and Mazulu) how you came to believe in the Christian god. You chose to ignore my question. I showed you how religions (in this case, Catholics) methodically and quite thoroughly indoctrinate their children into the 'faith'. You ignored this too.

I can't fault you for believing, arauca. But I can fault you for intellectual dishonesty. For refusing to even discuss the possibility that your belief could be due entirely to a systematic and comprehensive indoctrination process.

And yes, this was also pointless.

 

[Mazulu]

Whenever science says 'we don't know yet', the religious zealots like you and Maz jump in and say 'if you don't know, god must have done it'.

That's a really dumb thing to say.

That's actually a really smart thing to say. It must be some kind of evolutionary drive that compels us "religious zealots". Or maybe it's God's will. It's hard to tell.

 

[Mazulu]

It's entirely possible that there is no point in me coming here anymore. What I hoped would be some enjoyable conversation has been anything but. At the end of the day, the scientific community has only explored a wee little bit of the universe. Yet you find it acceptable to critizize what you haven't met personally. So be it. I will look around for a friendlier more enjoyable group of people to hang around with.

Ta Ta For Now.

 

[AlexG]

That's actually a really smart thing to say. It must be some kind of evolutionary drive that compels us "religious zealots". Or maybe it's God's will. It's hard to tell.

Or maybe your simply a sick, deluded wacko who believes aliens talk to him in his head.

 

[spidergoat]

...At the end of the day, the scientific community has only explored a wee little bit of the universe....

That's ten thousand percent more than what the non-scientific community has explored.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

So what do you suggest? Should we discourage religion or make it illegal? Should we make love and hate illegal too because people kill each other over that? Should emotions be banned altogether? Your position sounds like a banal movie plot.

The fact you cannot help but go to such ridiculous extremes in your 'suggestions' shows how poorly you can handle reality. I want people to be able to deal with reality through reason and knowledge, not fear and superstition.

In other words, you are apathetic to the suffering of others. Care and concern for others is the most fundamental characteristic of a good person. By your own words, you are not a good person. You are an uncaring person. Do you dispute this? Do you agree?

I said exactly the opposite? I care about other people, I don't like to see them suffer. How you turned that around to the exact opposite I don't know. I help people because I care about them, not because some being in the sky is threatening me to do it.

Do you realize that if there is an afterlife, that things might not go so well for you?

You mean the Hindu afterlife, where you'll be punished? Oh, perhaps you meant the Norse afterlife, where you'll go to hell for not living a warriors life.

Oh, you mean that if there is an afterlife and if your particular superstition is true then I'll be in trouble. Again with the false dichotomy, it isn't a choice between "There is no god" and "Christianity", it's a choice between ANYTHING. Why Christianity and not Islam? Or Judaism? Or paganism? Or some pacific island religion? How do you know that the rules of going to hell push people like myself? I'm using the mind and senses you think your god gave me. Maybe he will reward people like me and punish people like you who ignore reality, throwing his 'gifts' away? Maybe the real god is B'aal (from the Bible) and he'll punish you for believing in a false god, the one of the Bible?

Your threat only works on people who already believe, an attempt to scare them into sticking with their religion. You're so enamoured with your faith in your particular sect/delusion that you think the opposite of atheist is it, there is no third, fourth or trillionth choice. If I decide to believe in a god why should I pick yours and not any other? Because you make the biggest threats? If I threatened you with being killed by Valkeries from Norse mythology would you take the threat seriously? No, you'd laugh at it, just like you'd laugh at every other religion save Christianity. I just laugh at one more religion than you.

I always knew you were not the sharpest or most read tool in the shed, now I see you're living on a completely different planet. Your religion has robbed you of the most basic reasoning abilities (ironic, given it says those are gifts from your deity) and makes you blind to basic things in the universe (another thing you think your god made, all for us). If your god exists and he made us in his image, giving us minds to think and eyes to see, perhaps he doesn't appreciate you squandering those gifts? Maybe he'd prefer you use them rather than just accept blindly things without evidence or reason.

 

[Balerion]

It's entirely possible that there is no point in me coming here anymore. What I hoped would be some enjoyable conversation has been anything but. At the end of the day, the scientific community has only explored a wee little bit of the universe. Yet you find it acceptable to critizize what you haven't met personally. So be it. I will look around for a friendlier more enjoyable group of people to hang around with.

Ta Ta For Now.

Right, because we're not all praising you for your baseless postulations and threats of everlasting hellfire for not believing in God?

Don't the let the door hit you where your fake god split you.