Bible contradictions

[JimHR]

Your dismissal of the opinions of others is very much a cowardly one when it presupposes that those that don't believe what you are incapable, creating a fallacy. You might find these terms and descriptions demeaning, but such is the nature of those willing to make claims of superstitious nonsense without the slightest shred of evidence. UFO nutters are offended when skeptics question their beliefs; the gullible followers of Sylvia Brown are often offended when her BS is criticized; astrologers and horoscope followers dislike their poppycock being questioned. If your beliefs were truly grounded in reality and fact, then they would survive a few questions and doubts and probably even a fair bit of ridicule?

Actually its the dismissal of your vague, negative choice words for my faith. Period. You're not ridiculing, your simply using demeaning names and I am asking you to respect my choice and use intelligent debate. (Isn't that against the forum rules btw?) Aren't you accepting of all people's choices? Sounds a bit unfair to me.

By whose authority do you make these claims? Why should I believe the authority of SkinWalker?

You see your problem is you like to go off on side trails and argue for the sake of arguing--can we just stick to the issues and debate about the issues?

That remains to be seen. But I give you the same response I give the the ESP believers: you're either lying, deluded, or telling the truth. With regard to the subject matter there's no evidence of the latter, and ample evidence in others for the former two options.

Exactly my point--Don't rule out truth until it has been validated as not true.

Again you speak of evidence--again I say the Bible, the conscience, millions of Christians around the world, and all of creation. I also ask again what evidence would convince you of the validity of the resurrection?

Which of those is the most significant in your opinion? Which is the most easily defended as a real, honest to goodness "prophecy?" If you choose not to answer, I'll understand since by committing yourself thus, I or others will only thoroughly debunk said "prophecy," which would, therefore, render all the others as bunk too.

Look, SkinWalker--I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am simply presenting you with the faith of the Bible and letting you decide.

So what would need to be fulfilled in order for it to be a valid prophecy?

 

[JimHR]

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M*W: Hi JimHR, I've been reading the exchange between you, Seti and Skin. One point comes to mind that I want to share with you. The lack of evidence is evidence, but probably not the kind you want to hear.

Here comes the word evidence again. Have you not heard about the Bible from the millions of Christians and preachers around the world? Apparently I have the honor of preaching the Gospel to you for the first time. I would be exceedingly grateful for the opportunity. What's more--your conscience and all of Creation speaks of evidence. How do you know a building has a builder? The building speaks for itself. We have life because the Creator breathed into us the breath of life.

Please remember that I was not always an adherent to the Bible.

The question is M*W--what evidence would have to be presented to you for you to be convinced the Bible was true? Remember--that evidence would have to be given to all of humanity from the dawn of creation to today, and it could not without a shadow of a doubt prove the existence of Jesus--so as to give us a free will in choosing to worship and love the Father.

I cannot speak for Skin, but I understand where he's coming from. It is not that he misunderstands the concepts of faith and religion, he understands them all too well.

Actually I believe he is making complicated that which is simple.

Being spoon-fed ideologies allows one to live in a comfortable rut intellectually. In other words, what you don't know might hurt you. It can keep you in that comfortable rut and not allow you the space to learn and grow in whatever way you feel is right for you.

Were you spoon fed your religious faith? What made you follow your religion? Sounded to me from what you said before you went against the grain of it to discover it was ludacris. Nobody fed you anything. People make choices on their own. Period. Intellectuality is not wisdom. I seek wisdom, how else will I find it?

Btw--following the moral code of God is comfortable? I think the complete opposite is comfortable. Following our own selfish desires is comfortable and takes no character.

So should I be learning and growing in my selfish desires to do as I please? This is the pilosophy of evolution--to consume and enjoy and then become nothing. Sounds great doesn't it?

I see you as someone who is content right where you are. You are comfortable with the knowledge you have about your faith and religion, and you probably make efforts to maintain your level of belief. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's something not right about it either. Maintaining your knowledge status quo will also limit you intellectually. I can tell that you are an intelligent person, and you have the capacity to acquire a greater understanding of your faith and religion. I just don't understand how you could want to remain in that comfortable rut. My guess is that you are among those of like mind who are content with their intellectual status quo. Never be afraid to seek a greater knowledge. Never fear what you might learn.

I thank you for your complements and I appreciate more than anything your heart for service as a doctor.

So are you not content with your knowledge right now, since we shouldn't be? But from your previous posts it sounded as though you think you are content. You move from one thing to the next--trying to find your purpose and meaning. Where will you find it? You appeal to standards of right and wrong--you can't appeal to them if they are nonexistent. You know M*W--when you drink of the living water, you thirst is quenched.

When God says that we will face persecution and even death for having our beliefs--you think that is comfort? Christ himself was murdered by the world for this so called "comfort." What Bible have you gotten this information from? There is comfort, yes, knowing that we will be rewarded if we "fight the good fight"--which is righteousness. The Bible says that sinners who do not repent will go to hell. That's comfort?

Again I would like to remind you that I did not make up my own faith. It is the faith of the Bible--not ritualized, traditionalized by man religion.

What greater knowledge is there than this?

Happy is the man who finds wisdom,
And the man who gains understanding;
For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,
And her gain than fine gold.
She is more precious than rubies,
And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
Length of days is in her right hand,
In her left hand riches and honor.
Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
And all her paths are peace.
She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
And happy are all who retain her. (Poverbs 3:13-18)

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Well I believe the Bible was written so men will have a deeper faith. But reading the Bible will not give a person initial faith. How did people have faith before the Bible was written? It tells us who God is--His character. Before a person can understand the Bible they must be born again with the Spirit.

I am sorry, but I still disagree with you on this one. There are many accounts, throughout history, of people who were converted to Christianity solely from reading the Bible. This is a fact as far as I am concerned. This is even how my own grandfather was converted to Christianity. We might just have to move onto something else.

Faith is simply a gift of God. We are all born with a desirous faith, but we quench it as we get older. Just like I'm sure every one in this forum has had a religious experience in an attempt to satisfy their spiritual thirst.

Are you saying that everyone is born with faith? If so, I would appreciate a scriptural reference that states this.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

In my understanding, this scripture is contradicted in many other places in the Bible.

Alright I will never condemn you to hell. God forbid if He gave me that power or authority! The Bible, however, has the authority to do so. Do you want me to be honest with you about the Bible? This is the only way you will discover the truth. The Bible has a clear path for salvation, unlike any religion. Do you want to know it?

Thanks! Upon what basis does even the Bible have the authority to condemn anyone to hell? Only God should have that authority. The Bible is not Him. It is separate from Him. I would love for you to be honest with me about the Bible! We will see what happens. The Bible teaches several different paths of salvation, which one is correct? Christians have killed each other over these different gospels for centuries, even to this present day.

Well how can you believe the Bible if you don't trust it? You either have to believe all of the Bible or none of the Bible. You can't pick and choose. May I ask you what you do trust as your source of truth or morality?

Why must a person either believe the entire Bible or none?

Every single Christian in existence picks and chooses which verses to accept as truth and apply to their lives and which ones not to. I do the best I can to understand what is right and good, by using the mind that God has given me, as do you.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 1:18-19

What do you fear if the Bible be true?

The Bible teaches fear as a way of life, but many Christians today interpret this out of the Bible and deny this, just as you may.

Thank You!

 

[SkinWalker]

Here comes the word evidence again. Have you not heard about the Bible from the millions of Christians and preachers around the world?

An appeal to popularity, eh? And this validates biblical mythology how? Millions of people believe in astrology and witchcraft. Their belief doesn't make either concept a reality.

Apparently I have the honor of preaching the Gospel to you for the first time.

This is the problem with the deluded: they wish to spread their delusion to the masses. I don't think yours is the first M*W has heard.

your conscience and all of Creation speaks of evidence. How do you know a building has a builder? The building speaks for itself. We have life because the Creator breathed into us the breath of life.

An argument from design leads to an infinite regress since any "god" complex enough to create a universe would then need an equally complex creator itself, and so on to infinity. Or, the alternative is the gradual and slow evolution of a god capable of creating. The deluded masses of the worlds religions assume there are gods capable of creating the universe for the sole reason that they are unable to think of a way it could have occurred, making the argument from design become an argument from ignorance.

Rather than simply accept you don't know, its far more comforting to make an assumption that a god did it. I can actually understand this fallacy and wouldn't fault anyone for it except that most assume that their own mythology describes the god they imagine. If such a god existed, its far more likely that not a single human has the slightest knowledge about it, least of all the Bronze and Iron age cult leaders and priests that invented myths to describe the world around them.

Please remember that I was not always an adherent to the Bible.

Religion is a delusion that spreads best from one credulous person to the next. Not a single person was "always an adherent to the bible," since such a person can't exist. Biblical mythology has to be taught and learned. The most effective way is through the child abuse they call "Sunday school."

The question is M*W--what evidence would have to be presented to you for you to be convinced the Bible was true?

The kind that is meaningful in that it is testable and at least potentially falsifiable.

Remember--that evidence would have to be given to all of humanity from the dawn of creation to today,

Why? Not that it would be possible to give any evidence to a human at the "dawn of creation," since humanity is but a single, brief point of existence in the timeline of existence. If the age of the Earth were made into a bar graph the size of the Empire State building, the amount of time humanity has been here would occupy the width of a dime at the very top. There simply is no good reason to believe the silliness that the deluded masses buy into when it comes to accepting biblical mythology as inerrant fact. And I *do* mean deluded. There simply is no other word to describe the nutbars that think biblical mythology is literal truth when completely fabricated stories of stopping the Earth's rotation for a day; flooding the entire planet; creating the world in 6 days just a few thousand years ago; turning a woman into a pillar of salt (the wife of the very same asshole that was willing to let a mob rape his daughter); zombieism; cannibalism; human slavery; etc; etc...

Btw--following the moral code of God is comfortable?

The "moral code" given by biblical mythology (and believed by the deluded to have come from a "god") is anything but comfortable. If we are to accept the moral code your bible gives, then we should stone to death those that commit adultery or work on the sabbath. We should have slaves as long as they aren't Jewish. We should put to death those that don't think like us. We shouldn't bother with environmental conservation since the asshole that gave us the "code" is coming back one day to take the delude "home." Genocide is an acceptable practice according to your bible. And so on and so on.

Fortunately, morality doesn't come from the gods of christianity or any other religious delusion. It comes from people and religions adopt them. This much is clear to anyone who's ever studied anthropology or ethnological subjects at even a rudimentary level.

So should I be learning and growing in my selfish desires to do as I please?

Why not? This is what the religious are best at. They do as they please as long as it can be justified or reconcile through their gods. They fly planes into skyscrapers; assassinate doctors; blow up federal buildings with Ryder trucks; bash and murder gays and blacks; picket the funerals of service members killed in action; ignore the environment; rape, molest, kill, sodomize, shoot up, steal, rob, extort, bribe, cheat, lie, etc., etc., etc....

If religious people had the market cornered on morality, none of these immoral acts would be so prevalent among them. Of course, the expected response is "these aren't real christians," as if this is really a meaningful statement. But if we were to take the apologist making such a pathetic statement at his word, we are then left to conclude that christianity is a failed experiment. Religious proponents will, on the same page, claim that christianity is the biggest, fastest growing, most successful cult on the planet, then claim that those that commit the acts mentioned above "aren't real christians." No kidding. Either there are "millions upon millions" of christians or there aren't. If the paragraph above doesn't describe christians, then at best there are only a few hundred!

Don't misunderstand me, I have several friends and members of my family whom I love deeply and would do anything for and they are just as deluded as any of them. But they're good people not because of their religion, but because they're good people. I have just as many non-religious friends and family who are equally good. Obviously morality is a human characteristic. If it weren't, we would expect to see the immorality more prevalent among the non-religious than the religious when probably the opposite is true.

This is the pilosophy of evolution--to consume and enjoy and then become nothing. Sounds great doesn't it?

Anyone with even a rudimentary education in one of the sciences concerned with evolution understands that evolution doesn't have a philosophy. Evolution is a comprehensive and growing set of explanations that describes life as we know it. What continues to amaze me is the number of religious people that think evolution is some sort of entity or philosophy. Their ignorance is truly amazing. Perhaps they're so used to anthropomorphizing the world around them, relying on invented and mythical explanations, that they can't begin to understand, much less accept, that there might exist an explanation for life on Earth that *isn't* the Bronze Age myth they've come to believe. Its as if accepting the fact of evolution means they must also accept that their bible is fiction and therefore meaningless. Ironically, this is far from the truth. The christian bible and its related texts are among the most beautiful works of literature man has ever created. The poetry and wisdom contained are unparalleled when their origins are considered.

If I were one that believed in a god, I often wonder how I would be willing to commit the level of blasphemy that anti-evolution nutbars stoop to. After all, is their god so impotent he couldn't create the universe through the process of evolution? Or is their god so deceptive and evil that he created the universe in 6 days one week a few thousand years ago and then seeded the universe with evidence that it took billions of years, the last few million appearing gradual and incremental in the steps life took to reach the current era?

 

[geeser]

Uh--does David Copperfield claim to be performing the miracles of God? No. Do the authors of these fantasies claim to have written the Word of God? No.
What was your point?

duh! there all fantasy, illusion.

Unless it is existent.

The existence of a thing can be conclusively proved by producing one single instance of the thing.
care to try.

What proof would you need right now to know that God and the Bible is true?

the bible is just a group of fairy stories put together by ancient mystics.
and as for a god see the above reply, To put that another way, When the existence of a thing is denied, This can be proven wrong by producing one single instance of the thing said not to exist.

You have creation, your conscience, millions of Christians around the world and the Bible itself. Tell me in what way God could reveal himself that would not force us to believe?

all are fallacies,(appeals to authority etc...) the only way would be for a god to produce evidence of it's existence which it has'nt done, and is never likely too.

He gave us a freewill to have faith so we wouldn't be robots.

[ so you became a sheeple, it beggers belief.

Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

[/quote]jesus never said anything he's a fictional character, it's all a fantasy.

 

[Saquist]

Why should I ever think I could correctly translate the Bible, even after a lifetime of effort?

And how does thinking that I am probably incapable of doing something, make me arrogant?

I have made simple attempts at Bible translation and what I found was even more frustrating. Very often, a single word can be translated 2, 3, 6, 10 different ways, with the result that comprehension can actually get worse not better. You just end up picking the meaning you like! But, is it the right meaning?

Who knows!

I don't know as much about Greek as I do of Hebrew. Hebrew is a very specific language I've only encountered so many different ways to render many words.

It was a verbal language and a language that was used for memory purposes. It's very specific. The good news is most of the work has been done for you...you just have to look for it.

Then you have to realise that people have agenda as translators, not all but some do. To know the bible factually you have to do resarch verse the other translations....look for the common translation of words vs the definition and context of what grammar clues to...It's not an impossible task.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I don't know as much about Greek as I do of Hebrew. Hebrew is a very specific language I've only encountered so many different ways to render many words.

It was a verbal language and a language that was used for memory purposes. It's very specific. The good news is most of the work has been done for you...you just have to look for it.

Then you have to realise that people have agenda as translators, not all but some do. To know the bible factually you have to do resarch verse the other translations....look for the common translation of words vs the definition and context of what grammar clues to...It's not an impossible task.

Would you please be so kind as to translate Deuteronomy 13:6-10 for me so I can see if it makes any difference?

Thank You!

 

[Saquist]

I can cross-refrence all known renderings. I only translate when I find inconsistences in words and text meaning. I'll be back tomorrow with a rendering.

"In case your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or your cherished wife or your companion who is like your own soul should try to allure you into secrecy, saying. 'Let us go and serve other gods,' whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers, some of the gods of the peoples who are all around YOU, the ones near you or those far away from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land, you must not accede to his wish or listen to him, nor should your eye feel sorry for him, nor must you feel compassion, nor cover him [protectively]: but you should kill him without fail. Your hand first of all should ocme upon him to put him to death and the hand of all the people afterward. And you must stone him with stones, and he must die, because he has sought to turn you away from (Jehovah, YHWH or JHVH) your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves." De 13:6-10

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I can cross-refrence all known renderings. I only translate when I find inconsistences in words and text meaning. I'll be back tomorrow with a rendering.

"In case your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or your cherished wife or your companion who is like your own soul should try to allure you into secrecy, saying. 'Let us go and serve other gods,' whom you have not known, neither you nor your forefathers, some of the gods of the peoples who are all around YOU, the ones near you or those far away from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land, you must not accede to his wish or listen to him, nor should your eye feel sorry for him, nor must you feel compassion, nor cover him [protectively]: but you should kill him without fail. Your hand first of all should come upon him to put him to death and the hand of all the people afterward. And you must stone him with stones, and he must die, because he has sought to turn you away from (Jehovah, YHWH or JHVH) your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves." De 13:6-10

Thank You!

So far, I can see no major differences. It still says the same immoral wicked thing that the other translations do.

Why do I need to learn Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic myself when I could just about stick almost any translation of this particular passage to my refrigerator for my three children to memorize?

Thanks!

 

[Saquist]

You're welcome...
My reserached did not reveal a measurable amount of distinction between differnt translations aside from the removal of God's devine name.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Here comes the word evidence again. Have you not heard about the Bible from the millions of Christians and preachers around the world?

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M*W: I shall attempt to answer your specific questions.

Yes, I have heard about the bible from the sources you cited, but I've also read the bible for myself.

Apparently I have the honor of preaching the Gospel to you for the first time. I would be exceedingly grateful for the opportunity. What's more--your conscience and all of Creation speaks of evidence.

*************
M*W: The gospel has been preached to me many times before I came to sciforums. So, no, you would not be the first to preach it to me.

Preaching, as you've heard, is not allowed on sciforums, so take care with your words and quoting scripture. We all have access to the different variations of the bible in our personal libraries and on the Internet.

What is in my "conscience" does not represent credible evidence. What is also in your "conscience" does not represent credible evidence. That is simply the way we process information.

How do you know a building has a builder? The building speaks for itself. We have life because the Creator breathed into us the breath of life.

*************
M*W: I know a "building has a builder," because the building just didn't appear one day out of thin air. That is "evidence." A building does not "speak for itself." The building speaks for the architect, designer, construction engineer, city code permits, and its occupants and the work they do.

The question is M*W--what evidence would have to be presented to you for you to be convinced the Bible was true?

*************
M*W: There is no new evidence, and even though some opportunists try to dupe the gullible public with fakes, there will never be any new evidence that could convince me otherwise. I've already reached the point where I am no longer comfortable with what the bible has to say. It has an entirely new meaning to me, and that is why I continue to research the bible and christianity from an atheistic viewpoint. Now, the bible and its religion entirely makes sense to me for what they were meant to represent.

Remember--that evidence would have to be given to all of humanity from the dawn of creation to today, and it could not without a shadow of a doubt prove the existence of Jesus--so as to give us a free will in choosing to worship and love the Father.

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M*W: Again, there is no evidence to be found--now or ever so. Realistically, there are no shreds of evidence that could lead us to believe in or to worship any deity of choice.

Were you spoon fed your religious faith?

*************
M*W: It was through my own personal endeavor to seek out catholicism, pursue adult catechism for a year, receive the sacraments of my religion, and live my life in the faith. I did reach a point where I was very comfortable in my faith and made it the center of my life and family. So, there, I sat somewhat comfortably while allowing myself to be spoon-fed by my faith for a time. But I am one who wants interactive participation. I was not content to be spoon-fed only, so I continued to read everything I could about christianity. The more I read, the more I started becoming uncomfortable, and the more I made an effort to visit those holy sites to reinforce my former level of comfort. Unfortunately, I was never able to return to the comfortable place that I had known before. Everything took on a new and more understandable meaning. In other words, it all became clear to me. There's no going back from that, so if you're comfortable with your faith as it is and as you have always believed it to be, then stop right there. Don't move. Don't learn anything new. Hide in your mental cave, and you'll be okay. You won't be able to fit into the world outside your cave, but then "ignorance is bliss."

What made you follow your religion?

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M*W: Basically, I felt that I was not a complete person without faith in my life. I had a young family, and I wanted to teach them to embrace what I thought was my ideal.

Sounded to me from what you said before you went against the grain of it to discover it was ludacris. Nobody fed you anything. People make choices on their own. Period.

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M*W: No, I didn't "go against the grain" of my faith. I pursued it to a higher level. I wanted to learn about the history of christianity, the whys and wherefores. I wanted to be able to communicate and discuss dogma with priests and other men/women of faith. The priests I knew didn't take a liking to my own "inquisition!"They told me "not to question." That made me all the more thirsty for answers!

Intellectuality is not wisdom. I seek wisdom, how else will I find it?

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M*W: I agree. One becomes intellectual by pursuing knowledge. One becomes wise by processing that knowledge and applying it to life.

Btw--following the moral code of God is comfortable? I think the complete opposite is comfortable. Following our own selfish desires is comfortable and takes no character.

*************
M*W: At that time, I was comfortable following "god's code." Following one's own selfish desires is not necessarily a comfortable place.

So should I be learning and growing in my selfish desires to do as I please? This is the pilosophy of evolution--to consume and enjoy and then become nothing. Sounds great doesn't it?

*************
M*W: I don't recommend taking up selfish desires as a passtime. But, again, that really depends on what those "selfish desires" are. I had a selfish desire to learn. I still have that selfish desire. I don't let it interfere in my life or family, and as far as I know, there are no 12-step programs to recover from it.

So are you not content with your knowledge right now, since we shouldn't be? But from your previous posts it sounded as though you think you are content.

*************
M*W: No, I'm still not content with my fund of knowledge, and I never will be, so I just pursue my passion as I am able to. I don't take advantage of anyone else in my pursuit. I have not become obsessed with it. I just enjoy the endeavor.

Let me say this, I am content where my knowledge has led me. I am not saying that I am unhappy with atheism. I have become by far more unhappy with christianity to the point that I want to make everyone in the world aware of its evils. Sciforums allows me the platform to do that.

I am content in what I have learned about christianity, and I know there is so much more that I haven't learned yet. As a christian, the door to knowledge was tightly sealed. Now the door is open, and I really don't have any fear of going in. I'm not afraid of what I might find... you know, it just might be the truth... not as you see the truth, but as I see the truth, and I want to spread that truth to others. I think when we become "content" with anything, we close that door to knowledge of whatevewr may lie beyond that door.

You move from one thing to the next--trying to find your purpose and meaning. Where will you find it?

*************
M*W: Well, I may not be a very good writer, and my posts very well may be choppy, but I have found meaning and purpose in my life. I love my family. I love my work. I enjoy my pursuit of knowledge. I am content in those things. I am not content with what christianity has done to humankind and to this world, and I will never be content with that. Fortunately, christianity is dying worldwide. That is a statistically significant fact. Of course, when I was a christian some 35 years ago, I believed that christianity was the only true religion and the greatest religion the world had ever known. I was deluded.

You appeal to standards of right and wrong--you can't appeal to them if they are nonexistent. You know M*W--when you drink of the living water, you thirst is quenched.

*************
M*W: Nowhere have I said that there are no standards of right and wrong. We all still have a human conscience. We know what is innately right or wrong. Being a christian, however, does not make you right just as being an atheist does not make me wrong. That's beside the point. There is by far more evils in religion than there could ever be in atheism! Christians do not automatically stand for everything that is good nor do atheists stand for everything that is bad. We are law abiding citizens who love our friends and families and our place in the universe. Perhaps you should read-up on atheism.

When God says that we will face persecution and even death for having our beliefs--you think that is comfort?

*************
M*W: First, there is no god who said anything, much less commented on persecution/death for what we believe. This is the very case you would have to prove there is a god. Until you do, I cannot understand how persecution and death would have anykind of influence on my belief or behavior. Please try to understand here that just because I am atheist, I'm not going to go out and shoot-up my neighborhood! I'm not even going to drive wrecklessly. I am not going to covet my neighbor's lawnmower. I am perfectly comfortable with those standards of right and wrong.

Christ himself was murdered by the world for this so called "comfort."

*************
M*W: Let me just say this. I am comfortable knowing there is no god, no hell, no heaven, no afterlife, no eternity, etc.

What Bible have you gotten this information from?

*************
M*W: I believe the bible is man-made, therefore, corrupt as far as it's modern interpretation. Bible interpretation means something entirely different to me than it does to you or other christians. It is not a book about one god or one dying demigod savior. It is not a book about angels, miracles and mystery. It will not save your soul. The bible is a book about the "logos" or the word of the stars, planets and constellations that are represented by lambs, rams lions, water-bearers, virgins, fishers of men, and the movements of the 'apostles.' The bible is also a book about one orb brushing the rim of another orb in its path that is related to, translated by, transcribed from, and interpreted for the masses as a "kiss." The kiss of Peter to Jesus (Jupiter passed by the Sun); Judas kissed Jesus (Scorpio passed by the Sun); and Mary Magdalen brushed past the Jesus (Virgo passed by the Sun). Then there's Veronica who kissed the hem of Jesus' garment. This is just one little example that I now believe in as the correct and rightful interpretation of the bible. However, I DO NOT ACCEPT THIS TO BE IN ANY WAY BELIEVABLE EXCEPT AS THE ORIGINAL MYTHOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION IN WHICH IT WAS WRITTEN. I am not an astrologer. I do not believe in astrology as anything but a myth.

Again I would like to remind you that I did not make up my own faith. It is the faith of the Bible--not ritualized, traditionalized by man religion.

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M*W: Well, you sort of did. No, it's not the faith of the bible as I have stated in the previous reply. What you believe is what was created by men and is corrupt.

What greater knowledge is there than this?

*************
M*W: The greater wisdom is finding the truth.

 

[JimHR]

I am sorry, but I still disagree with you on this one. There are many accounts, throughout history, of people who were converted to Christianity solely from reading the Bible. This is a fact as far as I am concerned. This is even how my own grandfather was converted to Christianity. We might just have to move onto something else.

Are you saying that everyone is born with faith? If so, I would appreciate a scriptural reference that states this.

But the question is--what drew your grandfather or the others to read the Bible in the first place? I'm saying they had a desire for faith. A desirous faith. We were all created to accept the "gift" of faith from God. And this is why many people use religion in an attempt to find Him--but they don't. Many get frustrated and give up. Then they put their trust in themselves.

But the true faith can only be discovered in the Bible. The Bible does deepen the true faith and it convicts and convinces. It is the most influential book in all the world and it is no accident. No one can say they don't have access to the Bible. It has been translated into hundreds of languages and withstood many attempts at being destroyed.

Consider the following:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

You make me so happy SetiAlpha6!! This is exactly what I am trying to encourage. You have told me to provide Scripture references to back up what I am saying. You see? You have appealed to the authority of Scripture. The Bible is the only authority in matters of faith and church. My purpose is not to get my viewpoints out, but the Bible's.

In my understanding, this scripture is contradicted in many other places in the Bible.

Thanks! Upon what basis does even the Bible have the authority to condemn anyone to hell? Only God should have that authority. The Bible is not Him. It is separate from Him. I would love for you to be honest with me about the Bible! We will see what happens. The Bible teaches several different paths of salvation, which one is correct? Christians have killed each other over these different gospels for centuries, even to this present day.

Oh yes the Bible is God's Word. It is His very communication with us. We can only learn about God's character from the Bible.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

The Bible teaches one path:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me." John 16:2-3

Jesus told his followers to love his enemies--so if a man puts a knife in your back in the name of Christianity--something is not right. Now that doesn't mean that you have to be defenseless. I could explain this more if it seems unclear.

"I know that the Lord is always on the side of right. But it is my constant
anxiety and prayer that I—and this nation—should be on the Lord’s side."--Abraham Lincoln

Why must a person either believe the entire Bible or none?

Every single Christian in existence picks and chooses which verses to accept as truth and apply to their lives and which ones not to. I do the best I can to understand what is right and good, by using the mind that God has given me, as do you.

If you apply some to your life--why not all of them? The question would be then how do you determine which are true and which are not? You are creating a faith based on your own interests.

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

The Bible teaches fear as a way of life, but many Christians today interpret this out of the Bible and deny this, just as you may.

Thank You!

I didn't understand this, sorry. Please clarify.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

We were all created to accept the "gift" of faith from God.

*************
M*W: Hi, Jim. I have some questions and comments I'd like to address to your post to Seti. First, please explain your statement, "We were all created to accept the "gift" of faith from God." Specifically, how do you know this? Please don't answer, "the bible tells me so." If this were true, there would be extra-biblical documentation or evidence of this. The bible in itself is not evidence. The bible is literature. You may be content to view the bible as evidence, but in reality, the bible is not evidence.

Have you ever heard anyone say that all babies are born atheists? This is true. Babies are born with no preconceived notions of a creator (not even their parents).

If faith were a gift for everyone in creation, then everyone would have the same faith and the same abilities and capacities to understand and receive that faith. I believed this when I was a christian, before I started learning the truth.

But the true faith can only be discovered in the Bible. The Bible does deepen the true faith and it convicts and convinces. It is the most influential book in all the world and it is no accident.

*************
M*W: I would say that if a person truly understands the bible, it would make sense to him. I understand the bible, and now it makes sense to me whereas it didn't when I was a christian. I THOUGHT I knew what the bible meant then, but I was so wrong!

You have told me to provide Scripture references to back up what I am saying. You see? You have appealed to the authority of Scripture. The Bible is the only authority in matters of faith and church. My purpose is not to get my viewpoints out, but the Bible's.

*************
M*W: You're treading on thin ice, Jim. This is considered preaching, so be careful. Are you sure Seti asked you to provide scripture references? Make sure of his request before you get yourself banned for preaching.

Oh yes the Bible is God's Word. It is His very communication with us. We can only learn about God's character from the Bible.

*************
M*W: You assume the bible is "god's word," because you have been spoon-fed to believe that. Have you ever searched outside the bible to find the truth? Does that scare you?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

*************
M*W: Let me just paraphrase this statement: "In the beginning of our recorded history, the "word" or "logos" was the study of the creator and the creation of the universe. Further, the creator of the universe was the sun. It dried the oceans that covered the entire world. The sun created vegetation and an ecosystem with plants and animals to complement creation. Ancient humans feared and awed the sun. They thought of the sun as god who gave us all life. I can provide you with many references to back-up this statement, but I have already posted them in this forum. When you get a chance, you might want to go back to my previous posts on this subject, to save us both time.

The Bible teaches one path:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

*************
M*W: Another reference to the sun-of-god about the creator=sun. They are one and the same, just different interpretations of the monotheistic god=the sun.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Don't you think it a bit naive to think that all the ancient people didn't realize that it's impossible for the Creator to be a created entity (the Sun)?

 

[JimHR]

An appeal to popularity, eh? And this validates biblical mythology how? Millions of people believe in astrology and witchcraft. Their belief doesn't make either concept a reality.

Yeah but they don't have the Bible.

This is the problem with the deluded: they wish to spread their delusion to the masses. I don't think yours is the first M*W has heard.
The deluded masses of the worlds religions assume there are gods capable of creating the universe for the sole reason that they are unable to think of a way it could have occurred, making the argument from design become an argument from ignorance.

Actually we are telling you how it occurred--Who is really making up a way it could have occurred? And that is the main difference--Bible Christians know. Atheists guess. I'd much rather know. Your argument for evolution is an argument from ignorance.

You see my point SkinWalker? You need to have an authority to back you up.

Yes I agree--religions delude the masses for social control. But truth is truth not belief in rituals and traditions.

Rather than simply accept you don't know, its far more comforting to make an assumption that a god did it. I can actually understand this fallacy and wouldn't fault anyone for it except that most assume that their own mythology describes the god they imagine. If such a god existed, its far more likely that not a single human has the slightest knowledge about it, least of all the Bronze and Iron age cult leaders and priests that invented myths to describe the world around them.

Why should I accept what I don't know--when I do know? What's wrong with having perfect peace? It's far more comforting to live in sin than to face reality. I don't understand why atheists identify Christianity with "comfort." Do you not have comfort? Please explain.

You know, you said in an earlier post that you put your trust in men's findings. I have found the Bible to be true. Why don't you consider my findings? It sounds like you are picking and choosing and not considering all the facts.

If such a God exists--it is far more likely that millions of people around the world can verify the identity of Him. Why do you believe the reverse?[/QUOTE]

ok look SkinWalker--you have a lot of questions! as people do and I have answers to them--just give me time because I can't just sit here all day answering, though I wish I could. Its seems like your experience with Christianity was a bad one. I am sorry to hear that and am happy to tell you the truth about. I am a real-life Christian and here to let you know all about it.

btw Are you a scientist of some sort or what do you do for a living?

 

[JimHR]

Okay M*W and SkinWalker--what do you mean that I am preaching? Is this not a discussion labeled "Biblical contradictions?" How can I explain anything if I don't use any Bible refereneces?

It's like saying you can't look into the White House to prove that the President lives there. It is only by looking into the White House you will find his existence.

The Bible is the same scenario. It is only by looking into the Bible will you discover the character of God and that it is of supernatural origin.

What's interesting is how you appeal to the authority of the forum rules. I am merely appealing to the authority of Scripture.

Please define preaching.

 

[JimHR]

I'll be back tomorrow. Thanks.

 

[Prince_James]

JimHR:

When you come back tomorrow, see my Apology for Catholicism here in this thread. I'd be interested in your rebuttal.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Okay M*W and SkinWalker--what do you mean that I am preaching? Is this not a discussion labeled "Biblical contradictions?" How can I explain anything if I don't use any Bible refereneces?

It's like saying you can't look into the White House to prove that the President lives there. It is only by looking into the White House you will find his existence.

The Bible is the same scenario. It is only by looking into the Bible will you discover the character of God and that it is of supernatural origin.

What's interesting is how you appeal to the authority of the forum rules. I am merely appealing to the authority of Scripture.

Please define preaching.

They mean, JimHR, that they can preach anything they want to you but you cannot preach to them! I completely disagree with them on this, in the strongest terms! It kind of makes it look like they are afraid of truth or something! Of course they will never admit this.

The only way you really have to discuss these things is to use the Bible. I understand that and so should they. M*W, would you prefer that JimHR responded more like IceAge does? Sorry man!

Please back off just a bit, M*W, for the sake of our discussion. I appreciate your concern but I think that perhaps I can take care of myself. If you do not like the form of this discussion you are free to leave it. But I hope you will stay instead. If you dislike preaching so much you might want to consider quitting it yourself.

Huggggggs and Kisssses! I still love you anyway!

I mean, as a friend of course!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Okay M*W and SkinWalker--what do you mean that I am preaching? Is this not a discussion labeled "Biblical contradictions?"

*************
M*W: It sounds like preaching to me. Personally, I don't like it, but I'm not a moderator. I mentioned it, because it can be construed as preaching.

Yes, this thread is about bible contradictions, but I would rather read your own words than for you to cut-and-paste scripture.

How can I explain anything if I don't use any Bible refereneces?

*************
M*W: We all know the bible references, so there is no need to repeat them. You are a member here. It is your words that are important to learn and not what the bible cites.

It's like saying you can't look into the White House to prove that the President lives there. It is only by looking into the White House you will find his existence.

*************
M*W: Not a good analogy. History teaches that the President lives in the White House. I don't need to go in there to find him for myself. The bible doesn't teach any verifiable history. What you read in the bible must be relied on by "faith." A truly historical document will withstand the span of time. The bible hasn't held-up through the ages. Believing it has held-up through the ages is simply lying to oneself.

The Bible is the same scenario. It is only by looking into the Bible will you discover the character of God and that it is of supernatural origin.

*************
M*W: Believing the bible is a "supernatural" document is a deluded belief. It is a humanly written document and, therefore, certainly not "supernatural." Man is "natural." Man cannot create the "supernatural." Belief in a deity is a myth. Believing in myth as reality is a delusion.

What's interesting is how you appeal to the authority of the forum rules. I am merely appealing to the authority of Scripture.

*************
M*W: I appeal to the forum rules, because I don't want to get banned. I would suggest that if you feel you must appeal to the authority of scripture over logic, reason and sanity, you might be more comfortable on a christian forum.

Please define preaching.

*************
M*W: Taken from the forum rules:

"Whilst it is acceptable to post perceived failings and strengths of various belief systems, where this is done with the main aim of preaching the virtues of one's own religion (perhaps with a desire to convert others), or of disparaging those who hold to a different belief system, posts may be edited or deleted."

There have been many christians before you that have come to sciforums and couldn't understand the concept of preaching. I understand it is a natural occurrence among christians to laud one's belief in the bible and to "witness" to others. Sciforums is not the place to "witness" to anyone. As far as I know, christian forums allow it.

There is nothing so annoying than trying to have a person to person conversation with a christian and every other word he says is "praise god." I always wonder if he has anything scholarly to say.