Actually M*W Pope John Paul II was fluent in TWELVE (12) languages by the time he became pope.
Bible contradictions
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Actually M*W Pope John Paul II was fluent in TWELVE (12) languages by the time he became pope.
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M*W: I can believe that, but he only spoke in six at his first audience. He was brilliant. I especially love him because of his asking for forgiveness for the sins of the RCC.
JimHR:
You dismiss M*W's testimony very easily. It sounds like she was more devout than you are, probably. It sounds like she "knew the Lord" about as well as anybody could expect.
Why do so many Christians jump at any chance to vehemently attack anybody who decides to leave the fold? Sounds like insecurity to me.
What a muddle.
The Bible is only a semi-historical document. Scholars spend years trying to sort out historical truth in the bible from political and religious propaganda.
Prophecy is a vague thing indeed, and later parts of the bible were written specifically to fit certain earlier "prophecies". As far as I can tell, the bible hasn't predicted any major world events of modern times.
The bible is about as far from being a scientific document as you can get. It doesn't even purport to be one, by the way, so you are holding it up to an unfair standard. It is utterly useless in matters of astronomy, mathematics, biology, chemistry and most other scientific subjects. You can't blame the writers - there has been 2000 years of science since the Bible was written. But it's laughable to view the Bible as a scientific text.
I notice you take the opportunity to claim that evolution is not a scientific theory. Obviously, you know nothing about it, so there's little point in having further discussion with you on that topic, unless you're willing to learn.
This God of yours is obviously quite mean and intollerant. He is willing to send all unbelievers to hell for all eternity, I suppose.
The 10 commandments are a poor guide to morality. About half of them are concerned with God's jealousy of other gods. The other ones are obvious and are included in virtually every other, more complete, moral system (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, respect your parents - all common sense, aren't they?)
What's the "worm" theory?
So, the pentecostals are not really communing with God, then? Are they deluding themselves?
Does anybody speak in tongues these days, according to you?
You dismiss M*W's testimony very easily. It sounds like she was more devout than you are, probably. It sounds like she "knew the Lord" about as well as anybody could expect.
Why do so many Christians jump at any chance to vehemently attack anybody who decides to leave the fold? Sounds like insecurity to me.
What a muddle.
The Bible is only a semi-historical document. Scholars spend years trying to sort out historical truth in the bible from political and religious propaganda.
Prophecy is a vague thing indeed, and later parts of the bible were written specifically to fit certain earlier "prophecies". As far as I can tell, the bible hasn't predicted any major world events of modern times.
The bible is about as far from being a scientific document as you can get. It doesn't even purport to be one, by the way, so you are holding it up to an unfair standard. It is utterly useless in matters of astronomy, mathematics, biology, chemistry and most other scientific subjects. You can't blame the writers - there has been 2000 years of science since the Bible was written. But it's laughable to view the Bible as a scientific text.
I notice you take the opportunity to claim that evolution is not a scientific theory. Obviously, you know nothing about it, so there's little point in having further discussion with you on that topic, unless you're willing to learn.
This God of yours is obviously quite mean and intollerant. He is willing to send all unbelievers to hell for all eternity, I suppose.
The 10 commandments are a poor guide to morality. About half of them are concerned with God's jealousy of other gods. The other ones are obvious and are included in virtually every other, more complete, moral system (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, respect your parents - all common sense, aren't they?)
What's the "worm" theory?
So, the pentecostals are not really communing with God, then? Are they deluding themselves?
Does anybody speak in tongues these days, according to you?
It's true, actually he spoke ten languages before becoming Pope and the other two thereafter.
Fluency in 12 languages is incredible. He must have known alot of things.
Hey man what's your story? I just started this forum and thought I needed to share my experiences and find out about others.
No No No. I claim to be part of the first New Testament church based on the Bible--Catholicism and Protestantism are based on that--where do you think they came from?
And if we cannot find it in the Bible it is not truth. The Bible is the only truth. I will not put my trust in traditions and rituals invented by man--as did M*W. Its sad that there are people out there that have deceived the truth--and the Bible clearly talks about that. That is not the faith of the living.
The Pope is just a man as you and I and has no spiritual authority over me--the Pope isn't written about anywhere in the Bible (tradition). Same with Mary.
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus." 1 Tim 2:5
What Bible you read supports baby baptism and the big huge adorned churches? Christ of the Bible preached believer's baptism and God dwelling in the heart--not a rich building. Catholicism is a "Christian" religion--not a Bible faith. In fact the Catholic church has added many a word to the Bible which clearly violates Scripture. And God will add to the decievers many a plague.
I like this illustration--I'll admit its not original:
Our faith isn’t intellectual; it is experiential. We don’t know about God, we know Him. At the University of Chicago Divinity School, each year they have what is called “Baptist Day.” It is a day when the school invites all the Baptists in the area to the school because they want the Baptist dollars to keep coming in.
On this day each one is to bring a lunch to be eaten outdoors in a grassy picnic area. Every “Baptist Day” the school would invite one of the greatest minds to lecture in the theological education center. One year they invited Dr. Paul Tillich. Dr. Tillich spoke for two-and-a-half hours proving that the resurrection of Jesus was false. He quoted scholar after scholar and book after book. He concluded that since there was no such thing as the historical resurrection, the religious tradition of the Church was groundless, emotional mumbo-jumbo, because it was based on a relationship with a risen Jesus, who, in fact, never rose from the dead in any literal sense. He then asked if there were any questions.
After about 30 seconds, an old preacher with a head of short-cropped, woolly white hair stood up in the back of the auditorium. “Docta Tillich, I got one question,” he said as all eyes turned toward him. He reached into his lunch sack and pulled out an apple and began eating it. “Docta Tillich (crunch, munch), my question is a simple one (crunch, munch). Now, I ain’t never read them books you read (crunch, munch), and I can’t recite the Scriptures in the original Greek (crunch, munch). I don’t know nothin’ about Niebuhr and Heidegger (crunch, munch).” He finished the apple. “All I wanna know is: This apple I just ate—was it bitter or sweet?”
Dr. Tillich paused for a moment and answered in exemplary scholarly fashion: “I cannot possibly answer that question, for I haven’t tasted your apple.” The white-haired preacher dropped the apple core into his crumpled paper bag, looked up at Dr. Tillich and said calmly, “Neither have you tasted my Jesus.”
The 1,000-plus in attendance could not contain themselves. The auditorium erupted with applause and cheers. Dr. Tillich thanked his audience and promptly left the platform. “Taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusts in him” (Psalm 34:8). It has been well said, “The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.”
How can you say I know nothing about something--when in reality you know clearly nothing about me. Sounds like you automatically rule out Christianity. Are you even interested in what its about? What do you accept as truth?
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JimHR:
You must be referring to my comment on evolution.
Ok, please explain the fundamentals of evolution to me in one brief paragraph, as you understand it.
Rule it out for what purpose? Christianity is a complicated belief system, with many off-shoots, some positive and some negative features. I may rule it out for some of its errors, while praising it for other positive features.
I know what it's about, believe me. I was brought up as a Christian.
Many things. However, I do not believe that any one, single source has a monopoly on all that is True and Good.
You must be referring to my comment on evolution.
Ok, please explain the fundamentals of evolution to me in one brief paragraph, as you understand it.
Rule it out for what purpose? Christianity is a complicated belief system, with many off-shoots, some positive and some negative features. I may rule it out for some of its errors, while praising it for other positive features.
I know what it's about, believe me. I was brought up as a Christian.
Many things. However, I do not believe that any one, single source has a monopoly on all that is True and Good.
Okay and thus we have the idea that the monks misinterpreted the Bible for social control and the forming of the Catholic church--thanks for that.
Yeah no wonder so many of the Catholic rituals and traditions have been corrupt--it is really sad.
This is why I follow the Septuagint translation of the Bible--I get to cut out those monks interpretation.
I recommend the KJV, but the NKJV and NASB are okay too.
I am so sorry that you discovered the deceitfulness and persecution of the Catholic church. And it is no accident that the Catholic church has "evolved" over time--they were never founded on the real truths of Scripture.
I really did just learn something M*W--thanks.
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What were you raised?--please don't tell me Catholic or Lutheran. I know some might think that I am bold in making this statement but--the Catholic and Luthern churches add a lot of rituals and traditions--thus beliefs, that are not fond in the Bible. So what is truth?
Actually Christianity is quite simple: Faith in the resurrection of Jesus.
Christ knew that faith would be the stronghold of the entire world--that is why it is the means of salvation. Wisdom is something that is gained only from the Bible.
P.S. Fundamentals--do you mean V.I.S.T? I attended schools that only taught evolution.
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[Moderator Message]
JimHR, please don't quote a whole post complete with all the line spaces. Try quoting only the relevant parts and generally less than you type. If you type 5 lines, you should only quote about 3, maybe 4 lines.
Thank you.
[/Moderator Message]
JimHR, please don't quote a whole post complete with all the line spaces. Try quoting only the relevant parts and generally less than you type. If you type 5 lines, you should only quote about 3, maybe 4 lines.
Thank you.
[/Moderator Message]
Bible Contradiction in Time – False Prophecy
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
All of these people died without His return occurring in their lifetime.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
All of these people died without His return occurring in their lifetime.
That's easy...
I've looked a few time into the thread...One thing i noticed as I observed is the differences in translating that may occur from popular bibles instead of litteral bibles.
Sometimes, translation is an issue as I told Wiz4rd before. It's intresting to see Medincine woman post two sciptures that are back to back as contradictions.
My bible says something a bit more clear. at proverbs 26: 4,5. I suspected this was the case...things get lost in translations that are either translated from another translation or translated too litteraly without regard to grammar and the sentence structure in another language.
I'll tell you this Ceti Alpha6...prophecies frequently have two fold fullfillments. I do know this the word that is rendered generation doesn't necessarily mean a human life time. It does and can refer in the bible a condition or state of affairs in the world.
I've looked a few time into the thread...One thing i noticed as I observed is the differences in translating that may occur from popular bibles instead of litteral bibles.
Sometimes, translation is an issue as I told Wiz4rd before. It's intresting to see Medincine woman post two sciptures that are back to back as contradictions.
My bible says something a bit more clear. at proverbs 26: 4,5. I suspected this was the case...things get lost in translations that are either translated from another translation or translated too litteraly without regard to grammar and the sentence structure in another language.
I'll tell you this Ceti Alpha6...prophecies frequently have two fold fullfillments. I do know this the word that is rendered generation doesn't necessarily mean a human life time. It does and can refer in the bible a condition or state of affairs in the world.
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M*W: No, I was not saying that monks specifically "misinterpreted the Bible for social control." Although that may have occurred, no doubt, the scribal copies were not Xerox copies, if you understand what I'm saying. There was a lot of room during the copying and recopying of the original documents for human error to totally misrepresent what the original texts actually said. Remember, there are no original texts that have been found... only copies and recopies, ad finitum, to those "original" copies. So, we really don't know what the originals might have stated. The possibility of the Church influencing some of the reproducers in order to control the masses is certain. So we really don't know today what the true words of the bible are.
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M*W: I agree. Corrupt in that those rituals were created to show the crowd visuals of what their interpretation of the bible was, since the masses couldn't read nor didn't have a copy of the bible when it all 'began' (no, evolved). As I understand it, the sacraments were milestones that the Church wanted it's members to partake in... like a ritual cult. Get people to go through the motions, and that in itself, is a form of 'control.' Today we would call it 'interactive play', like standing for the National Anthem, hand over heart for the Pledge of Allegience, lighting cigarette lighters at rock concerts, etc.. Human nature likes those repetitive actions. It makes us feel wanted and accepted, like we are a part of something greater than ourselves. Since these ritual sacraments were invented by men, they are corruptible. Where in the NT does it say to kneel, stand, sit, shake hands, close your eyes, bow your head, put your palms together? These area all man-made rituals that have no basis even in the corrupted versions of the bible.
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M*W: The Septuagint is still a reproduction and is just as corrupt.
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M*W: The KJV, et al., is one of the most corrupt reproductions with some 3000+ errors.
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M*W: Please don't feel sorry for me. I am grateful to the RCC for leading me where I am today. I had such a thirst for knowledge for the most important area of my life that the Church led me where it did so I could finally see the truth for myself! Like I stated earlier, I wasn't content to be just a peon of the masses. I wanted more. I wanted to be as close to Jesus as humanly possible. That's why I searched for ways to get there, and that's when I found the truth. Staying in one's 'comfort zone' doesn't allow for personal or spiritual progression.
I have heard this argument many times before.
All you have to do is look at how all of the apostles themselves interpreted the words of Jesus. What did they think it meant? They knew and understood that the words "this generation" meant "this generation" or in other words, those who are alive now, or those I am speaking to right now.
And really, if the translators are so poor at translating truth then why should we trust them at all?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 shows clearly what Paul thought Jesus meant.
But, I will be happy to dig up some more clear examples for you if you wish. There are many to choose from!
Ask and you shall receive!
then you don't understand what to fold fulfullment really means then.
But I don't belive the return of christ had an eariler fulfilment unless you count his return from the dead...which is not the return they were speaking of. They were refering to his arrival as King over god's kingdom.
It doesn't really matter what the apostle meant or thought at that time...they could have been wrong. They're not privy to EVERY thing God has purposed...but the frequently have the right understanding about his direction but as for timing..that a domain of God completely. We already know that no one knows but God...likely not even Jesus knows.
The first Propehcy: Gen 3:15
Eve was elated when she had her first child...she thought he was the seed that would save us...(she was wrong)
yes there are many areas of bible characters getting the prophesy wrong. Not all the characters were intouch with God's holly spirit but mostly prophesy has to do with timing.
That's fair...but you don't have to trust them you can see the scrolls for yourself. The orignal scrolls have been destroyed by time but the consistency of all the original copies that began immediately after are more than verifiable...they did after all counted every letter.
So if you have a doubt about todays translators...translate yourself. It's a good way of finding the truth.
But I don't belive the return of christ had an eariler fulfilment unless you count his return from the dead...which is not the return they were speaking of. They were refering to his arrival as King over god's kingdom.
It doesn't really matter what the apostle meant or thought at that time...they could have been wrong. They're not privy to EVERY thing God has purposed...but the frequently have the right understanding about his direction but as for timing..that a domain of God completely. We already know that no one knows but God...likely not even Jesus knows.
The first Propehcy: Gen 3:15
Eve was elated when she had her first child...she thought he was the seed that would save us...(she was wrong)
yes there are many areas of bible characters getting the prophesy wrong. Not all the characters were intouch with God's holly spirit but mostly prophesy has to do with timing.
That's fair...but you don't have to trust them you can see the scrolls for yourself. The orignal scrolls have been destroyed by time but the consistency of all the original copies that began immediately after are more than verifiable...they did after all counted every letter.
So if you have a doubt about todays translators...translate yourself. It's a good way of finding the truth.
Your answer severely undermines the authority of the Bible and its ability to teach truth. If Jesus and His apostles all taught false information regarding this event, an event that impacts every single person who has ever existed, then why should anyone assume that anything else they taught was true either?
And also, are you really saying that if I were to translate my own personal Bible I could do a better job than all of the current experts in the field?
no I don't think it does you just misunderstand my answer.
The question is do you think you're competent enough to learn something new?
How much responsibility for you own fate are you willing to put on "expert" advise? To think you need an "expert" to read and translate the bible is not true. God didn't leave the book on Earth for only for experts to understand. He left it for everyone...
That's a scientific arrogance, that I can't learn and comprehend on an "expert" level. It's an opinion that I don't share.
The question is do you think you're competent enough to learn something new?
How much responsibility for you own fate are you willing to put on "expert" advise? To think you need an "expert" to read and translate the bible is not true. God didn't leave the book on Earth for only for experts to understand. He left it for everyone...
That's a scientific arrogance, that I can't learn and comprehend on an "expert" level. It's an opinion that I don't share.
Why should I ever think I could correctly translate the Bible, even after a lifetime of effort?
And how does thinking that I am probably incapable of doing something, make me arrogant?
I have made simple attempts at Bible translation and what I found was even more frustrating. Very often, a single word can be translated 2, 3, 6, 10 different ways, with the result that comprehension can actually get worse not better. You just end up picking the meaning you like! But, is it the right meaning?
Who knows!
No, that wasn't my question at all. James?