Beware of Greeks

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thefountainhed said:
I suppose I should post a lengthy irrational piece of shit. Kinda like "Beware of greeks", "The American", etc. Better yet, I should've have written the crap 7 years ago, and posted it on 6 forums.

You are silly
I thought the 'Beware of Greeks' one was inspirational. at least many others have told me they liked it. It isn't racistor nationalstic. If you have half a brain you'll see what is meant by Hellenism.
As for the 'American' and 'What about Bob?' they're used to make a point and to insight anger and passion.
The day you have anything to teach me about Frank is the day I chop off my dick and become, what the idiots call me, dickless.
 
thefountainhed said:
I have both knowledge and intelligence. Far more than you.

I’ll take your word on it even if there’s little proof of it. Very un-scientific of me.
Why would I post serious responses towards people that dismiss me and insult me?
I adapt to the level of the person talking to me.
When an idiot attacks me with childish penis remarks I respond in kind or ignore him/her.
I respond seriously to only those that actually got what I said.
You my friend did not get this thread.
You took it as nationalism and racism.
Too bad for you.
Hellenism is a state of mind a state of being not a racial type.
Wake up!!
 
Lol. As I said, you are silly.

Only a moron will call such a disjointed piece of crap inspirational. Do you understand what a non sequitur is?
Probably not. It is your favorite mistake when attempting to think. No, "beware of greeks" was not insightful. It was based on a constricted viewpoint. You lack knowledge.
 
And who said hellenism was a racial type? Hellenism is OVER! It is merely insecure people seeking the "glory" of ancient Attica who still dwell on it. I did not like your post because you displayed that you knew nothing outside western thought. And what's worse, you were not even well versed in greek history!
 
thefountainhed said:
Lol. As I said, you are silly.

Only a moron will call such a disjointed piece of crap inspirational. Do you understand what a non sequitur is?
Probably not. It is your favorite mistake when attempting to think. No, "beware of greeks" was not insightful. It was based on a constricted viewpoint. You lack knowledge.

And you are now dismissed as an imbecile.
This was a last chance to redeem yourself; too bad.
You are more interested in posturing and image building, as all of your kind is; more concerned with your bullshit.
All exterior and facade, all rumor and myth.
You drop little details to tell me you are worthy, like that you are in a lab or whatever, and you tell me that you’ve posted many threads as if only this is enough for you.
I looked moron, nothing but questions and one paragraph nonsense about nothing.
You say nothing. You belong here insulting and pretending and prancing with your chest puffed out.
You are a worker ant, a mindless automaton.
Good luck stupid.
Ignore List for you too.
I love this thing.

Just that last : "Hellenism is over" was enough to display your real understanding of Nietzsche.
Anyone who knows Frank is laughing right now.
What nuances did you grasp imbecile?
Proof that just reading books doesn't ensure depth of perception.
This guy thinks Hellenism is dead when helives in a mutated form of it, this guy mistakes knowledge and math for intelligence and wisdom, this guy is about surfaces. He reads but he doesn't really get it.
Teach me about Greece idiot and then maybe you can teach me Greek as well.
Oga buga,buga uga, suba, uga muga.
This will be my last response to you.
Go on working for the man. We need slaves still only today they have been convinced that they are free.
One more sheeple.
Bahhhhhhhh!
 
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he he he. Do you know how you sound? You cannot accuse me of posturing. You are the quintessential posturer, Wanderer. I also do not want you calling me a "friend". You are a moron who insults an entire continent.

You also speak of image building in reference to me. It is pathetic scum who actually care about such nonsense that actually mention it. And no my threads, with the exception of a few direct questions are not questions at all.

Also, when I was insulting, I had a set of rules that governed a particular set. Yor are lost wanderer.
 
LOL! Yes hellenism is over. There is no superman or superwoman. There is no universe ideal, and the quest for knowledge is not the ultimate ideal. Perhaps you'd like me to tell you about Nietzche and his link with Attica-- shaped his thinking?
 
Hear ye, hear ye!!!!
The Head declares there is no ‘superman’ or ‘superwoman’ he declares the end of knowledge and evolution. He has given up on humanity.
The Head is suffering from depression and pessimistic nihilism.
He’s read excerpts from ‘Nietzsche for Twits’ and he thinks he understands him now.
Listen! The Head now says knowledge is not an ideal and there is no universal ideal either. Well thank you fountain-of-head your enlightening comments were helpful.
Now tell me about this new machine they call the computer.
He now declares the end of Hellenism yet he lives in a western world, he speaks a western tongue he lives a western lifestyle, he believes in western ideals, he learns science, he believes in freedom, he has left behind religion and he often uses Hellenic terms.
He can’t even see the roots or the spirit behind western civilization, he doesn’t understand how paganism is what made science possible at all, he can’t comprehend that this modern spirit of exploration and contemplation was birthed in Attica and is now in danger but still alive.
He doesn’t comprehend that everything I’ve posted and written was in the attempt to rescue it from degradation so that mankind doesn’t revert back to the dark-ages and superstitious idolatry.
But, I guess, the Head now thinks it’s the time of the African tribes, those great enlighteners of human thought. He hopes a new dawn will come based on the knowledge and philosophy of African ‘civilizations’.
But what knowledge and philosophy?
 
Lord have mercy. Where do I declare the end of knowledge and evolution?

I suffer from depression and pessimistic nihilism? Do you even know what the latter connotes? How do you reach this conclusion?

Yes hellenism is over. What is, might be based heavily on hellenistic thought, but the two are clearly different.

Oh by the way, I understand everything you have ever written. Some are insightful, but most are nonsensical conclusions based on premises that are clearly constricted. The original post of this thread is the quintessence.

"thinks it’s the time of the African tribes"
I think this?

Whatever happened to this, "This will be my last response to you. ", maggot?

And no, I had to suffer through most of Nietzche's crap. The best western mind, in terms of philosphy was clearly Kant. Catch up, and we might have something to discuss.
 
Yes hellenism is over. What is, might be based heavily on hellenistic thought, but the two are clearly different.
The masses may have fogotten it but we few free-spirits still exist in it.
You can choose the materialsitc superficial world of consumerism if you wish.
I could care less.

Whatever happened to this, "This will be my last response to you. ", maggot?
My dear retard I'm using you to keep this Thread in front so that more can get to read it before it vanishes in the depths.
You are merely my tool.

And no, I had to suffer through most of Nietzche's crap. The best western mind, in terms of philosphy was clearly Kant. Catch up, and we might have something to discuss.
You’re still on Kant?
Jeez no wonder you are so retarded.
Over moralistic for me and quit boring as a writer and a thinker, but he did get the ball rolling.

Now since you’ve served your purpose and I grow bored here’s another laconic answer:
Get lost.
 
More of the pathetic from you, our resident conceited moron. I'm glad that this thread still remains in the forefront so others can see how moronic you truly are. So if that's the reason why yor responded, no complaints.

But see, being the insecure fool that you are, you seek an affirmation of your delusion intelligence. In order words, you will respond again to a post I make. Whether it will be in response to this post or not, is irrelevant, but you shall. What is pitiful is that you know it to be true too. This reaffirmation and the subsequent build up of an image that is quite frankly non existent within this context, but you obviously do not grasp, considering your accusation, is what prompted you to respond, and what will prompt you to do so again.
 
Oh, and lets not forget that "another laconic answer" was in response to my assertion in a different thread that, that laconic response was one of your more truthful posts. No, Wanderer, just like you will read this response, shall you read every other one I make. In the mold of Marquis, you are a weakling that hopes that acting otherwise will make him believe otherwise. Nothing but pretense...
 
I have a few questions Wanderer:

How is Christianity nihilistic?
What is Jewish morality? (I ask this because I don't think jewish and christian morality are one)
How was Socrates the first sign of degradation?

How does Eastern history display a passive-aggression? A passive-aggressive is someone who cannot openly confront (passive pose) but then displays aggressive action in response to what they cannot confront. For example a husband forgets his wifes wedding anniversary. She is angry but says nothing. Next day instead of reminding him she goes shopping and charges $500 on the credit card.

Would you agree that judaism itself encourages and fosters philosophical debate within its religion?

Fountainhead:

What do the Chinese have to do with the threads analysis of Hellenistic influence?
What aspect of Wanderer's essay made you bring it up?
Wouldn't you agree that everyone receiving a western education is influenced by the greek tradition wanderer expounded on, yourself included?
 
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I have a few questions Wanderer:

How is Christianity nihilistic?
What is Jewish morality? (I ask this because I don't think jewish and christian morality are one)
How was Socrates the first sign of degradation?

How does Eastern history display a passive-aggression? A passive-aggressive is someone who cannot openly confront (passive pose) but then displays aggressive action in response to what they cannot confront. For example a husband forgets his wifes wedding anniversary. She is angry but says nothing. Next day instead of reminding him she goes shopping and charges $500 on the credit card.

Would you agree that judaism itself encourages and fosters philosophical
debate within its religion?
Now see those are interesting and thoughtful quesntions.
I begin:
How is Christianity nihilistic?
Christianity is a part of a group of religions, Christianity/Islam/Judaism, that were birthed around a common geographical area and share a common ancestry and a common thread of thought.
I believe all three are referred to as the religions of Abraham.
They share the same singular creative entity they call ‘God’ and they all urge total and complete obedience to a series of tenets passed down to them directly from God.
They also share a claim to a direct communication line to the almighty that their preachers and spiritualists often use to ensure personal privileges, status and power.
All of these religions, also, have been power centers and co-operators with the status quo to ensure their own growth and prosperity and have created a clerical ultra-class of individuals.
Now why are all three of them plus a series of other religions {In fact all major religions in the world today are nihilistic] nihilistic?
The direct answer is that they all aspire to nothingness at the expense of life.
They all preach an extreme ascetic ideal which denies corporeal pleasures and rejects the world of the here and now for some utopian after-life or ultra-existence referred to as, Heaven or Nirvana or whatever.
But what is this hypothetical state of after-life being in reality?
To be perfect or to live in perfection, never mind if this is even possible or just a mythological construct, is to want nothing, to need nothing, to aspire to nothing, to struggle for nothing, to suffer nothing, to change into nothing-in other words another definition for death- it is to seek out an escape or a state of being that is the antithesis of what life is.
Life is wanting, needing, struggling, suffering, hoping, changing and so on.
So to aspire to a theoretical after-existence or ultra-existence, which usually also demands the sacrificing of life and all its pleasures and pains, is to deny becoming for a state of non-becoming.
But let us see what is required for the achievement of this promised nihilistic state of being without becoming.
-Total obedience to a single authority.
-Total subjugation to God or authority or nature.
-A dependence on prayer [grovelling] rather than action.
-Unquestioning loyalty and undoubting faith.
-A denial of instinctive drives and inclinations; dubbing them sinful of dirty or evil. In other words a denial of a part of the human condition.
-Selflessness. The sacrifice of self to a whole in search for transcendence.

In other words everything that denies human nature and life.
What can be more nihilistic than this?


What is Jewish morality? (I ask this because I don't think Jewish and Christian morality are one)
Christianity is a religion that has taken Hebrew morality coupled it with Socratic thought and added a few Buddhist wisdoms to create a childish faith for the weak and overwhelmed.

Jewish morality is the morality of self-hatred. It believes in the inherit vileness of the human condition [Sin] and preaches the payment for this sin through total self-denial and self-flagellation. God becomes the unreachable, the incomprehensible the unfathomable and so a total subjugation to this hypothetical entity is necessary.
Man must suffer for being man and shame is created to keep the strong from expressing and enjoying their superiority.
This is the morality of vengeance and hatred for all that is noble and strong. It is a moral system created in a people that has suffered greatly at the hands of greater nations and is a sort of retribution against past indiscretions; a moral system that levels man so no high or low peaks exist within the human family.
This is a moral system that makes pride into a sin and attempts to sublimate the human instincts that seek to dominate and overcome.
It is a moral system by the weak for the weak and this is why it is so popular and attractive. Most people are unfortunately weak and it is natural that they would be attracted to a morality that protects them, makes their inferiority into a virtue, the meek shall inherit the earth, and that exacts revenge on all that remind them of this weakness or attempt to use it.

How was Socrates the first sign of degradation?

Because he preached doubt and scepticism and left in the minds of the young nothing in its place. He preached the loss of faith but replaced it with nothing but self-doubt and nihilism.
Because he destroyed the notion of ‘Truth’ not realizing that this would lead to a human loss of dignity and meaning.

Because he surrendered to the will of lesser men when he had a chance to escape, in the name of some loyalty to a greater whole, making the self nothing but an impotent participant, in other words he sacrificed the self for the undeserving many. A Christian act before Christianity existed. With this act he stated that the power derived through quantity was superior to the authority derived through quality, laying the groundwork for the spread of Democratic idealism and Christian servitude.

Because he advocated the existence of a single transcending authority that forced mankind to later subjugate themselves and their minds to It. Where in past pagan beliefs the gods were approachable and fallible and one could use one against the other, making science possible and the search for truth possible, in this new mindset the only choice left was complete surrender.

Socrates was the first sign of Hellenic decline, he was a messenger of degradation.

Would you agree that judaism itself encourages and fosters philosophical debate within its religion?
No all religions and ideologies encourage and foster debate if the debate remains within the confines of its most important premises.
For instance, a debate on what God said is encouraged but that God exists or doubting or alternative creation explanations, is not or is restricted.
Science does the same thing. In science one can hypothesize and debate issues but the original a priori prejudices of time/space are never questioned because that would make any debate moot.
Philosophy is the only discipline that includes all and everything. If it is practiced correctly, honestly and with courage.

How does Eastern history display a passive-aggression?
If we look at India and China we see huge countries with large population but little influence other than a regional one.
Why?
Because their religious traditions are ones that preach non-resistance and non-aggression.
Whereas in the west due to the influence of Hellenic thought man become aggressive, an explorer and a challenger of nature, in the east progress is slowed by fatalism and this overdependence on conforming to social and natural norms and this glorification of humility.
China becomes influential only through bulk and nature being something one must harmonize with is rarely challenged.
We can witness eastern psychology not only in how Orientals behave and discipline themselves to the prevailing cultural norm but even in the martial arts.
The martial arts preach non-aggression and the usage of the opponent’s strength against him.
See how the arts are mostly show and screaming and acrobatics and myth meant to deter through intimidation and the avoidance of battle through a threat.
It is mostly psychology.
I’ve seen so called Karate experts revert to swinging and primitive methods in fights forgetting their training and if we watch Ultimate Fighting there is never a martial artist that wins. In fact very few even participate.
These martial arts subsist through movie mythology and staged manoeuvres, exhibitions of form, a spiritualism teaching asceticism and self-discipline and a macho myth that attracts males and females with low self-esteem and high gullibility who seek empowerment.
 
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Quote:they all aspire to nothingness at the expense of life...To be perfect or to live in perfection, never mind if this is even possible or just a mythological construct, is to want nothing, to need nothing, to aspire to nothing, to struggle for nothing, to suffer nothing, to change into nothing-in other words another definition for death- it is to seek out an escape or a state of being that is the antithesis of what life is.


I agree with your assessment of occidental religions, I just never would have used the word nihilistic to describe them. I have always seen them as aspiring to wishful thinking and immersing the believer in fantasy. But yes I guess it is nihilistic. But I have discovered two links that I would like you to read when you have the time and would really like to know what you think of them. The first is about hellenism and its influence on the Jews. Here is an excerpt:

"As evidenced by the Maccabean revolt, Judaism was an ancient and sacred institution which the Jews protected with their lives. To have altered their hallowed religion in favor of Greek characteristics shows increasingly positive reception of Hellenistic culture, though explicitly it seems otherwise. While the Jews were expressly writing against the oppressive actions of the Hellenistic people, they exhibited Greek characteristics within their own belief system, such as, immortality of the soul, stellar immortality and eternal salvation. Though the Israelites were undoubtedly afraid the Hellenistic people who threatened Jewish political and religious autonomy, they found parts of Hellenistic culture appealing enough to adopt into Judaism. As a result of the Jewish-Hellenistic contact, three ideas emerged that are paramount to not only Judaism, but to Christianity and Islam as well. It is amazing to imagine that Judaism fostered no concept of Heaven and Hell, two ideas that seem so central to the religion today, prior to the Hellenistic period. Since Christianity and Islam both have a Judaic base, their development was greatly effected by the concepts of eternal salvation and damnation. The history and belief systems of the three major western religions could have been very different today, if Hellenistic culture had not effected Judaism in the ways that it did."

http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/...s301-001/hellenistic_effects_on_judaic_li.htm

The second is about alexander and the cross-influence between jews and greeks during hellenism:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/...d.com/~Kekrops/Hellenistic_Files/Judaism.html

If the links don't work when I post them you can find them at

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/hellenisticjudaism/

And they are the first two articles (Hellenism and The Jewish Afterlife. Hellenism and Judaism The Encounter)

Quote:Because he preached doubt and scepticism and left in the minds of the young nothing in its place. He preached the loss of faith but replaced it with nothing but self-doubt and nihilism.Because he destroyed the notion of ‘Truth’ not realizing that this would lead to a human loss of dignity and meaning.

But wasn't his reasoning based on each individual re-considering all they think they know so that they just don't blindly follow ideas that were given to them as truth? I mean I think that the truth for an individual and reality are not the same because of point of view. As humans we filter reality and shape truth through our beliefs, as someone once wrote "truth is related to identity. What you believe to be true depends, in some measure, on who you believe yourself to be. And who you believe yourself to be is mostly defined in terms of who you are not."

Quote:Because their religious traditions are ones that preach non-resistance and non-aggression

Well how do you explain their resistance to foreign elements (referring to your position of non-resistance and non-aggression)? Where in africa colonialism extended all over the continent through Islam and then the Europeans did the same, changing language, religion and creating new nations, Asia resists outside change and did a good job of resisting christianity. The Philippines was successfully converted to christianity and Islam did find a great following but that was still mostly in the south. Thailand was never colonized and neither Japan to my knowledge though they did colonize the korean peninsula. India religiously colonized the region through the spread of buddhism. The chinese were never successfully revolutionized by outsiders or outside belief except through buddhism and communism which mao then personalized. Though there was cultural exchange among nations in the area none of them were dramatically changed by outsiders who attempted to do so. China certainly affected other countries in the area. Is it that they did not feel the need to conquer the entire world that you say they had no influence? I don't think China felt the need to do so, afterall their area of influence was large as it was. I guess what I am getting at is that they resisted being 'hellenized', they had their equivalents to great philosophers and movements but they extended themselves within the region as you say, but didn't hellenism also extended itself within the confines of a specific region?

When it comes to the sciences the franklin institute in philadelphia had an exhibit of ancient chinese technology and offered this description:

"The sciences of astronomy, physics, chemistry, meteorology, seismology, technology, engineering, and mathematics can trace their early origins to China. From 600 AD until 1500 AD, China was the world's most technologically advanced society. Scholars routinely discovered scientific principles, invented new technologies, and influenced the development of human civilizations around the world. China: Ancient Arts and Sciences tells the story of four of these revolutionary Chinese technologies: printing, papermaking, gunpowder, and the magnetic compass. Printing and papermaking impacted record-keeping and learning for Chinese society. The invention of gunpowder gave the Chinese a distinct advantage over their enemies, changing the nature of warfare. The compass enabled trade and exploration in whole new ways".

The chinese through their own system of logic and philosophy also extended themselves to science and they did so without having been influenced by Hellenism.
 
I agree with your assessment of occidental religions, I just never would have used the word nihilistic to describe them. I have always seen them as aspiring to wishful thinking and immersing the believer in fantasy. But yes I guess it is nihilistic. But I have discovered two links that I would like you to read when you have the time and would really like to know what you think of them. The first is about hellenism and its influence on the Jews.
I acknowledge the influence of Hellenism throughout the Mediterranean and the Greeks being a seafaring people undoubtedly were influenced by others, bringing not only wares and products back to Greece with their ships but also ideas.
But in order to comprehend what is Hellenism you must leave aside the specific ideas or disciplines that sprung from it, like science and philosophy and art, and see these as products of a particular way of facing the world. Hellenism is a spirit of being more than anything else.
It’s a spirit that denies the impossibility of ‘truth’, that denies the idolization of nature and reality or the deification of the universe. It was the Greeks that first fully comprehended the duality of human existence and the inherit tragedy/comedy of it.
It was them that saw the contradiction in man.
The gifts of Hellenism weren’t only the different scientific disciplines that they birthed or the philosophy that came from them or just the artistic expressions the gave us, these are only the products of the original gift. The gift of courage in challenging our limitations and the freeing of the human mind from the stifling effects of superstition, doubt and fear. The gift of acceptance of our own humanity, our complete humanity both physical and mental in harmony even if sometimes in opposition to each other.
They gave us the love of the unbridled spirit, the Dionysian in us but also the love of the contemplative more ordering spirit, the Apollonian in us.
The Greeks enabled man to accept himself despite his imperfections or because of them and be proud be truly proud and not grovelling for forgiveness and begging for leniency as other cultures have done.
They said man is dominator, man is creator, man is the measure of all things and not some blind follower that must surrender to fate and get inline with reality as mere participants as in the eastern philosophies but urged us to become masters of our own destiny.
Because otherwise all this is meaningless.
Can you see now why the west dominates in the world scene while larger more older culture are relegated to supporting entities?

But wasn't his reasoning based on each individual re-considering all they think they know so that they just don't blindly follow ideas that were given to them as truth? I mean I think that the truth for an individual and reality are not the same because of point of view. As humans we filter reality and shape truth through our beliefs, as someone once wrote "truth is related to identity. What you believe to be true depends, in some measure, on who you believe yourself to be. And who you believe yourself to be is mostly defined in terms of who you are not."
Yes healthy scepticism is essential but Socrates left emptiness behind.
He placed doubt and insecurity in the minds of men and then offered nothing to fill the gap.
Extreme scepticism can lead to nihilism, as it did for Schopenhauer, lethargy and disillusionment as it does for many on this very Forum.
If nothing can be known for certain then why bother, why live at all? That’s the consequence of extreme scepticism from which western thought is contaminated today.
The human mind is frightened by this and so it turns to mythologies that offer absolutes and promised certainties, as Christianity and Islam.
It was Nietzsche who offered us an alternative to this disease. Who challenged us to look back once more to the Hellenes and see how they dealt with this very issue.

China certainly affected other countries in the area. Is it that they did not feel the need to conquer the entire world that you say they had no influence? I don't think China felt the need to do so, afterall their area of influence was large as it was. I guess what I am getting at is that they resisted being 'hellenized', they had their equivalents to great philosophers and movements but they extended themselves within the region as you say, but didn't hellenism also extended itself within the confines of a specific region?
Exactly they influence through their passivity and inner strength to resist all outside influences.
Hellenism was confined to a specific region because of technological constrains Chinese influence is limited by an inherit passivity that forces Orientals to harmonize rather than challenge and to affect from within rather than from without.
If oriental philosophies were all we had there would be no drive to explore and to conquer new frontiers. The Chinese would see no purpose in going off world when all that is needed is within us already.
Don’t point to the recent Chinese space program that’s more the result of western influence on mainstream China.

The chinese through their own system of logic and philosophy also extended themselves to science and they did so without having been influenced by Hellenism.
I never said that Chinese culture wasn’t a good counterbalance to Hellenism or that it was without merit. I only speak of what I know.
Those that can expand on the virtues of Oriental thought can do so themselves.
So far all talk.
Do they know eastern thought or do they just hear that it’s good?
 
"Those that can expand on the virtues of Oriental thought can do so themselves. "
Can you not see the stupidity in advancing a stance as the only without knowing the other side.

Lucy,
"What do the Chinese have to do with the threads analysis of Hellenistic influence?"

What he credits to hellenism is too much. As the west was influenced by hellenistic principles were the ancient Greeks influenced. The civilization that also grew in western Europe is very different from that of old attica in philosphies, etc. Certainly a formalized set of principles were inherited, but these were known and used elsewhere and also developed elsewhere. The Arabs for instance were not mere catalogers.


"What aspect of Wanderer's essay made you bring it up?"
[This simple breaching of the minds ramparts, using intellect where brute force failed, is what the Greeks offered mankind as their lasting legacy through time and has made them immortals in the memories of all those that have come since.
In the fertile soils of critical thought watered by honest scepticism, they planted for us philosophy, science, mathematics, geometry, astronomy, gymnastics, history, theatre, aesthetics and many other seedlings of the human imagination; but much more than this they grew acceptance of mans true nature and awareness of mans promise and possibility.]

[Christianity, in its true spirit, as with Buddhism, teaches a full withdrawal from the temptations of existence and an extreme ascetic subsistence devoid of all pleasures and pains as a penitence for mans nature and a payment for mans consciousness. ]

...

The essay is an example of generalizations galore. Simple stances get morphed into reaching statements that are simply untrue. What is attributed Christianity for instance in the essay is quite simply incorrect. The dynamics started with the Greeks and Romans.

"Wouldn't you agree that everyone receiving a western education is influenced by the greek tradition wanderer expounded on, yourself included?"
Where did I say otherwise?
 
Quote:Hellenism is a spirit of being more than anything else.
It’s a spirit that denies the impossibility of ‘truth’, that denies the idolization of nature and reality or the deification of the universe.

I understand what you mean now. That spirit is sorely needed now, its almost as if there is a mad drive towards enslavement in a variety of ways and forms.

Quote: It was the Greeks that first fully comprehended the duality of human existence and the inherit tragedy/comedy of it.
It was them that saw the contradiction in man.

Would you please expound further on this contradiction? Is it the dionysian vs. the apollonian you are referring to? How does Hellenism harmonize or reconcile those two positions? How to achieve this acceptance of self? Or rather I should ask if you can give an example of how this balance is achieved.

Quote:...urged us to become masters of our own destiny.

Isn't the Eastern idea of karma or action/consequence important in understanding how one is the creator of ones reality? In the sense that we are individually responsible for the consequences manifested through action.

Quote:Can you see now why the west dominates in the world scene while larger more older culture are relegated to supporting entities?

Well I see the West dominating but I'm not sure if I see how it relates to Hellenism per se. I mean I see the West dominating but only through the U.S and in a aggressive manner to the detriment of itself and others (you know militarily and economically). Or through consumerism, the production of junk lacking in quality and passive reliance on media. But the spirit of Hellenism as you describe it seems missing in the world, even in the West. I men and women being turned into unengaged creatures of a mediocre comfort in the West. There is a pervasive passivity. Please outline how you see this influence.

Quote:Extreme scepticism can lead to nihilism, as it did for Schopenhauer, lethargy and disillusionment as it does for many on this very Forum.

You're right. I discovered this for myself when after a series of disappointments left me struggling to gain control over my vision, hopes and dreams. This struggle isn't easy because disillusionment does lead to lethargy and a diminished spirit. How to replenish the spirit after it has lost its dreams or lost grip of its principles (the spirits fuel and engine)? What to feed the spirit when it is left hungry or emptied? Cynacism easily sets in and its the cynacism that can easily lead to nihilism. When the spirit is healthy and enthused obstacles do not matter, the sweat and discipline doesn't seem arduous. One can be alive and enjoy it in freedom and dignity, the freedom of course comes from not lugging around a heavy spirit or languishing over an empty one.

Quote:It was Nietzsche who offered us an alternative to this disease.

And Nietzsche's alternative was what?

Quote:Exactly they influence through their passivity and inner strength to resist all outside influences...Chinese influence is limited by an inherit passivity that forces Orientals to harmonize rather than challenge and to affect from within rather than from without. If oriental philosophies were all we had there would be no drive to explore and to conquer new frontiers. The Chinese would see no purpose in going off world when all that is needed is within us already. Don’t point to the recent Chinese space program that’s more the result of western influence on mainstream China.


I agree China is just trying to keep its position as a power in the East to be rekoned with, keeping on a level playing field with the West. I agree with how you describe the oriental disposition. Do you think this dispositon is a negative or just as something self-evident?

Quote:never said that Chinese culture wasn’t a good counterbalance to Hellenism or that it was without merit. I only speak of what I know.
Those that can expand on the virtues of Oriental thought can do so themselves.
So far all talk.Do they know eastern thought or do they just hear that it’s good?

I think many don't really delve too deeply or invest greatly into oriental thought because its massive and complex and heavily tempered by the cultural/socio environment that produced it, and people spend more time focusing on the philosophy and not the culture/society from where it sprang. Most I know only skimp the surface and its usually some watered-down version of orientalism . I mean think about the time and effort it takes to read and ponder the various elements within our own civilization nevermind that of another. I don't think that the purpose or nature of orientalism is sparked by hellenism so I don't see it as a counterbalance. To assume counterbalance is to assume that hellenism or orientalism lacks balance, and that is a whole new thread in itself. No, I understand that your essay is a look at Hellenism and not hellenism vs. Orientalism. The chinese were brought up in the thread before hellenism was even properly discussed and then of course the discussion degraded into something else. I just wanted a clarification on your position which no one attempted to do.

The essay from the site I posted, the one concerning jewish afterlife beliefs, they indicate that the belief in an afterlife is attributed to hellenism and did not exist in judaism. Even many religious jews do not believe in heaven or hell but believe everything is here on earth. But you accuse the jews as well as the christians of believing in nothingness myth. The hope of a fantasy future after death were rewards await, etc. Wasn't hellenism part of this problem? This belief in fantasy and myth?
 
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Fountainhead

Quote: What he credits to hellenism is too much...The civilization that also grew in western Europe is very different from that of old attica in philosphies, etc. Certainly a formalized set of principles were inherited,

Arent these inherited principles exactly what the essay is speaking of?

Quote:...these (principles) were known and used elsewhere and also developed elsewhere. The Arabs for instance were not mere catalogers

What do you mean the arabs were not mere catalogers? Can you elaborate. Also the principles you speak of what are they and where else were they developed independent of hellenism?

Quote:[Christianity, in its true spirit, as with Buddhism, teaches a full withdrawal from the temptations of existence and an extreme ascetic subsistence devoid of all pleasures and pains as a penitence for mans nature and a payment for mans consciousness.

This quote ascribed to Wanderer. Then you wrote: "What is attributed Christianity for instance in the essay is quite simply incorrect." How or why is it false?
 
Would you please expound further on this contradiction? Is it the dionysian vs. the apollonian you are referring to? How does Hellenism harmonize or reconcile those two positions? How to achieve this acceptance of self? Or rather I should ask if you can give an example of how this balance is achieved.
Democritus said that everything contains its own contradiction within it and the expression of either side is determined by the direction you are headed or the perspective you currently have.
In order for harmony between the two contradicting facets of the human condition to be achieved the notion of shame and sin must be forgotten and given back to the Judeo-Christian God is was taken from.
One side must not be sacrificed on behalf of the other and both sides of the human condition must be understood, through introspection, and accepted through self-love and pride.
Apollinian: order, lawfulness, perfected form, clarity, precision, self-control, and individuation.
Dionysian: change, creation and destruction, movement, rhythm, ecstasy, and oneness.
In our ‘modern’ western culture we have sacrificed our Dionysian sides for the Apollinian or Apollonian and we often deny that it is there.
We focus on intellect and forget intuition, we focus on reason and forget instinct, we focus on mind and forget body.
This disharmony is evident throughout western civilization and the primary reason why there is so much insecurity, self-hate and psychosis and it is caused by the culture we live in and the way we have been told we must behave and think.
We often like to promote love and compassion but we forget that hate and indifference are also parts of who and what we are.
The two sides of human nature cannot be reconciled they can only be balanced.
Life is both tragic and funny.
The Greeks harmonized the two sides through the notion of balance or meter. Neither side must be allowed to dominate at the expense of the other.
How many professionals do you know that have devoted all their time to their chosen field and have neglected everything else?
Modern life often requires our full attention and succeeding forces us to devote all out attentions into one field or one aspect of our becoming. We then forget or neglect our other sides.
For example we become professionals and we dedicate all our efforts towards our careers and we forget about our physicality, our spirit and our instincts.

Isn't the Eastern idea of karma or action/consequence important in understanding how one is the creator of ones reality? In the sense that we are individually responsible for the consequences manifested through action.
Yes.

Well I see the West dominating but I'm not sure if I see how it relates to Hellenism per se. I mean I see the West dominating but only through the U.S and in a aggressive manner to the detriment of itself and others (you know militarily and economically). Or through consumerism, the production of junk lacking in quality and passive reliance on media. But the spirit of Hellenism as you describe it seems missing in the world, even in the West. I men and women being turned into unengaged creatures of a mediocre comfort in the West. There is a pervasive passivity. Please outline how you see this influence.
Many consider the US as the modern representative of Hellenism, I think it is a mutation that contains Hellenic thought but also contaminating ideas derived through a long exposure to Judeo-Christian ethics.
This in itself is a subject worth discussing all its own.
Far too long to get into here.
I see Hellenism, what is left of it, being threatened by this over-Democratization and Christianization of western thought.
The Jews could not deal with Rome directly so they dealt with it by speaking to its weakest and most numerous members, the masses, that founding its vengefulness and servile subjugation the honour and dignity they lacked in person.
Through this Hebrew spirit even the vilest and most pathetic man could find glory by proxy, what they lacked as individuals they gained through an omnipotent, omnipresent, perfectly good god that would exact revenge on their behalf and give meaning to their injustices and sufferings.
Can you not see this attitude present here on this forum and in western civilization in general?
This apathetic lethargy you describe is also an issue that needs expanding in a separate thread and is much too complicated and fascinating on its own to get into here
You're right. I discovered this for myself when after a series of disappointments left me struggling to gain control over my vision, hopes and dreams. This struggle isn't easy because disillusionment does lead to lethargy and a diminished spirit. How to replenish the spirit after it has lost its dreams or lost grip of its principles (the spirits fuel and engine)? What to feed the spirit when it is left hungry or emptied? Cynacism easily sets in and its the cynacism that can easily lead to nihilism. When the spirit is healthy and enthused obstacles do not matter, the sweat and discipline doesn't seem arduous. One can be alive and enjoy it in freedom and dignity, the freedom of course comes from not lugging around a heavy spirit or languishing over an empty one.
Perhaps you may find my essay called ‘Asceticism’ helpful in this area.
I can only speak for myself on this and for me the things I sought were never out there, but they were all found in me.
It’s this ability to be self-sufficient and able to tolerate solitude and distinction that gives rise to pride and inner strength that others will perceive in you and eventually come to respect and be attracted to.
This mental discipline derived through Hellenic measured or balanced asceticism and not the extremes Christian and Buddhist traditions teach us, is what leads to the attainment of the highest personal potential. Isn’t life about just that?
It isn’t about measuring up to some external ideal or some comparison to some external entity it is the achievement of personal potential.
The only way to do this is to continuously challenge and push yourself in the areas you choose to focus in. Pain and suffering is the answer to achievement. It is the hardest things I’ve had to come to terms with but the most glorious revelation I’ve made.
It is this perception of suffering from a new angle and the acknowledgment that it is suffering and war and pain that is mans greatest benefactor.
What is referred to and mentioned in one of my essays as the ‘Lucifer principle’.
But this has only been my experience.

And Nietzsche's alternative was what?
The return to pre-Socratic Hellenism.
Pagansim.

I agree China is just trying to keep its position as a power in the East to be rekoned with, keeping on a level playing field with the West. I agree with how you describe the oriental disposition. Do you think this dispositon is a negative or just as something self-evident?
It's just different.
In my opinion inferior because it looks upon individual man as just a part of a whole that must be assimilated and integrated into the norm.
The ‘Feminization of Man’ as I put it.
Orientals are non-distinct their power is derived through mass, through numbers and a participation in a union.
Hellenism also contains this wholeness but it emphasizes the one, the distinct, the noble, the special, the different and the worthy. Odysseus in search for Ithaca.

The essay from the site I posted, the one concerning jewish afterlife beliefs, they indicate that the belief in an afterlife is attributed to hellenism and did not exist in judaism. Even many religious jews do not believe in heaven or hell but believe everything is here on earth. But you accuse the jews as well as the christians of believing in nothingness myth. The hope of a fantasy future after death were rewards await, etc. Wasn't hellenism part of this problem? This belief in fantasy and myth?
I accuse the Jews of the servile vengeful morality they gave us and the Christians for their belief that death is a reward for life and I accuse both of believing that groveling in the face of nature or reality or fate or God is a dignified and honorable way to live.
Reality must be faced and the end met with pride and courage.
The Greeks valued life in the here and now as it was and saw death and Hades as an inevitable destination for all man. But they did not relish the voyage there.
Only Socrates saw life as a disease that only death could cure and willingly went to his end.

But it is late now and I just got back from work so I’m a little tired.
Perhaps I can get into these subjects further when I’m more clearheaded and rested.
Later.
 
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