What does that last phrase mean?
best arguments against religion (no theists)
- Thread starter cato
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@lightgigantic --
Okay, you proved that a tape measure isn't an "accurate" way to measure temperature due to your exclusive and semantic use of definitions. So what? It still doesn't deflect the argument back on to us because it's a faulty analogy.
You're saying that science isn't the proper tool to "measure" spirituality, however you give us absolutely no verification of this. We have no reason to take it seriously because it's solely your assertion. I assert that you're wrong, there we go. My assertion overrules your assertion because I say it does.
Damn, this is easy, I should have done this ages ago, it seems the only way to stop your meaningless drivel.
Okay, you proved that a tape measure isn't an "accurate" way to measure temperature due to your exclusive and semantic use of definitions. So what? It still doesn't deflect the argument back on to us because it's a faulty analogy.
You're saying that science isn't the proper tool to "measure" spirituality, however you give us absolutely no verification of this. We have no reason to take it seriously because it's solely your assertion. I assert that you're wrong, there we go. My assertion overrules your assertion because I say it does.
Damn, this is easy, I should have done this ages ago, it seems the only way to stop your meaningless drivel.
All argumentation is essentially about selective observation. Humans are not omniscient or objective, so they have to be selective. And in order to select one line of argumentation over another, they need some reason to do so.
You're not giving them any positive reason to select for your line of argumentation, so they are left in a motivational void while feeling a push to accept what you say.
This kind of dynamics doesn't work, and if it does, it doesn't work for long.
Now's the point where you are supposed to love us, show us that we're safe with you, give us fancy foods and such.
But instead, you're like a tease, a temptress, you lead us on, and then leave us hanging and hungry.
This is not fair.
Surely you are aware of the teaching that says one is in fact cheating people if one gives them just a partial experience of the Dharma, while expecting them to embrace the whole of the Dharma?
If all you give people is dry philosophy, but not the prasadam and the friendship - then you're not giving them much. And they are rightfully resentful.
@Signal --
He's not even giving us dry philosophy, he's giving us nothing at all. All he's done is assert by fiat that science is the wrong tool to use, he hasn't shown us why it's the wrong tool or why his tool is the right one. Without that there's absolutely no reason for us to take a single thing he says seriously.
He's not even giving us dry philosophy, he's giving us nothing at all. All he's done is assert by fiat that science is the wrong tool to use, he hasn't shown us why it's the wrong tool or why his tool is the right one. Without that there's absolutely no reason for us to take a single thing he says seriously.
Flawed analogy - but then you know that, and use what seems to be your normal tactic of "as long as the analogy sounds good, hopefully they won't notice it's flawed!".
In one you have the tool being the actual tool to do the measuring... and in your analogy... nope.
I have seriously never seen such deflection or argument against triviality in order to avoid having to address other criticisms raised against a position. It borders on the childish. And is utterly disrespectful, LG.Let us know when you are ready to discuss how one can calibrate a tape measure to read microkelvins - bet you can't (unless you bring other tools into the discussion) ... looks like you are trying to over ride the word "exclusive" much like you have tried to over ride the word "accurate"
The deaths of individualism, an endless cycle of conformity, a tenacious alteration of your vision, are you unique in any way?
The hunger, greed and desire to reach a new level higher, musing of an existence prior what have you lost along the way?
Your mind a place of confusion, reckless and non hesitant with your life, are your goals just delusions or dreams
This psychotic devastation now claimed for self preservation, this endless march towards a mirage of salvation, will you see the truth in time?
Surreptitious in your desire, the heart of your flame grows higher with the conversion of thoughts whom are not “inspired”
Those against your causes are undesired, their thoughts you burn with fire, exile them from your wishful paradise
What cost is taken for your bliss from others? In history you fought against the “others”, bloodshed, and persecution in the name of the son of the holy mother?
Are you in a pacified mind, for a force beyond your world will save you from yourself? Your doubts and questions are not allowed.
Are you unique, are you free? Or are you just another one of “his” little lost sheep, he gives you comfort and a pretense purpose, but soon he will end you.
The pulpit his tool, the humans his voice and existence, are you still sure of his presence? March to his word, think not of the absurd, and only listen to “his” words
Think not of the doubt that resonates within your mind; blindly trust the man who says you are blind, thus the cycle continues again
Questions, doubt, will leave you despised and victimized, never interject “him” never question “him” always follow the cause, and clap happily with the applause.
The endless masses plea and prey, they’ll deify anyone for the hope of grace, the mindless dichotomy will temper their peaceful place
God Almighty, Yahweh or Allah there all the same, each just with a different name, the message they preach the lifestyle they convey are each twisted and serpentine in their unique ways.
The hunger, greed and desire to reach a new level higher, musing of an existence prior what have you lost along the way?
Your mind a place of confusion, reckless and non hesitant with your life, are your goals just delusions or dreams
This psychotic devastation now claimed for self preservation, this endless march towards a mirage of salvation, will you see the truth in time?
Surreptitious in your desire, the heart of your flame grows higher with the conversion of thoughts whom are not “inspired”
Those against your causes are undesired, their thoughts you burn with fire, exile them from your wishful paradise
What cost is taken for your bliss from others? In history you fought against the “others”, bloodshed, and persecution in the name of the son of the holy mother?
Are you in a pacified mind, for a force beyond your world will save you from yourself? Your doubts and questions are not allowed.
Are you unique, are you free? Or are you just another one of “his” little lost sheep, he gives you comfort and a pretense purpose, but soon he will end you.
The pulpit his tool, the humans his voice and existence, are you still sure of his presence? March to his word, think not of the absurd, and only listen to “his” words
Think not of the doubt that resonates within your mind; blindly trust the man who says you are blind, thus the cycle continues again
Questions, doubt, will leave you despised and victimized, never interject “him” never question “him” always follow the cause, and clap happily with the applause.
The endless masses plea and prey, they’ll deify anyone for the hope of grace, the mindless dichotomy will temper their peaceful place
God Almighty, Yahweh or Allah there all the same, each just with a different name, the message they preach the lifestyle they convey are each twisted and serpentine in their unique ways.
So you can calibrate a tape measure to read microkelvins without some other tool?
A simple Yes or No will be suffice.
Yes.
So you can show how religion is not only the right tool, but that there is indeed something to actually "measure", that it has been calibrated, and that it is more than just "believe to believe" (e.g. "In order to believe that God exists you must first believe that God exists!")?
If your answer is "Yes" - then please expand upon it and actually explain how.
So you can show how religion is not only the right tool, but that there is indeed something to actually "measure", that it has been calibrated, and that it is more than just "believe to believe" (e.g. "In order to believe that God exists you must first believe that God exists!")?
If your answer is "Yes" - then please expand upon it and actually explain how.
No more deflection, LG.
I answered your question now please have the decency to respond to those asked of you. :shrug:
I'm afraid I missed the part where you answered how one can calibrate a tape measure to measure microkelvins without calling upon another tool.
That it's behavior can be modeled without resorting to anything that is not material.
Seconded.
A model is not material.
I too think that (ordinary Western) science is the wrong tool to assess religious claims.
One way to conceptualize the basic difference between science and religion is that science is a verificationist process (ie. setting up hypotheses and seeing if they hold up to testing), while religion is not.
The religious task is not to prove that a particular claim is true.
What kind of process religion is, may differ from one religion to another, but generally, I think we can say that religion is a process of realization, ie. a process of realizing, bringing about a certain quality or phenomenon, attaining a particular goal.
@Signal --
I would actually agree with this too if it weren't for the fact that many(one is tempted to say most) religious claims are physical in nature(prayer cured my cancer, or god spoke to me in my mind) and thus well within the realm of scientific inquiry. If religion would just drop those claims, as Stephen Gould implied that they should, then there would be much less conflict between science and religion.
As things stand now religions not only make physical claims, but then assert by fiat that science can not investigate them properly when science comes to the conclusion that these claims are a load of bullshit and chips. Either science is a tool that can be used to investigate religious claims(such as when neurologists confirmed that when buddhist monks meditate their brain activity is actually changed in the way that they experience) or it's not(such as when people say that science can't investigate the power of prayer). You can't flit randomly between the two stances just because one doesn't agree with your conclusion, which is exactly what the religious are doing these days.
I would actually agree with this too if it weren't for the fact that many(one is tempted to say most) religious claims are physical in nature(prayer cured my cancer, or god spoke to me in my mind) and thus well within the realm of scientific inquiry. If religion would just drop those claims, as Stephen Gould implied that they should, then there would be much less conflict between science and religion.
As things stand now religions not only make physical claims, but then assert by fiat that science can not investigate them properly when science comes to the conclusion that these claims are a load of bullshit and chips. Either science is a tool that can be used to investigate religious claims(such as when neurologists confirmed that when buddhist monks meditate their brain activity is actually changed in the way that they experience) or it's not(such as when people say that science can't investigate the power of prayer). You can't flit randomly between the two stances just because one doesn't agree with your conclusion, which is exactly what the religious are doing these days.
If you believe science is the wrong tool, why are you on a science forum?