Before Jesus

Lawdog said:
many theologians have sruggled with this question. Do you have any answer?
No, I have another question. Didn't Jesus take all our sins with us when he died on the cross? How can we still be born in sin when Jesus wiped out the debt?


Lawdog said:
Since the male is designed to be the moral leader
And another question: justification for this? Do you - Lawdog the person - think men are inherently morally superior?
 
redarmy11 said:
No, I have another question. Didn't Jesus take all our sins with us when he died on the cross? How can we still be born in sin when Jesus wiped out the debt?
Sin is not an autonomous entity that can be taken away on its own accord. It's people who sin, and people who need to be forgiven.

This also addresses the original post: Just like people before Jesus looked forward to their salvation, we have to look back to it. That's faith.
 
DO I think men are morally superior? Of course not. Just because they have the ability to hold the position of moral authority does not mean that in each case, or even in most cases, that they are actually morally superior. One must make the distinction between an office and the actual state.

There are many holy women, housewives, that are morally superior to priests. They do not hold the authoritative position however that a priest would, but only in their own family. This of couse means nothing. Power is not the same as authority. Many who have authority such as priests are powerless to effect change, whereas a holy housewife can influence many more people. I know, Ive seen it.
 
There seems to be an awful lot of muddle in the posts here.

The word 'hell' in English translates two entirely different words and concepts. 'Hades' from the Greek is simply the place of the dead. Note 'place' may be metaphorical. In other words it refers to simply being physically dead.
'Gehenna' is a Hebrew word and referred in its literal meaning to a rubbish dump outside the city in Jerusalem. It constantly burned. This is where the metaphor has different intepretations. Cults like 'Jehovah''s Witnesses' etc. say that as things are burnt away to nothing, this implies ultimate destruction but clearly the fire carried on and on. Other scripture beyond just the word 'gehenna' itself suggests something eternal (such as the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man). Clearly the concept of 'fire', 'lake of fire' and 'gehenna' itself are very florid language and may or may not be meant to be taken literally.

In so far as people before Jesus are concerned. We have to distinguish between the physically existing Jesus Christ on earth who appeared in a specific timeframe and was killed as an atoning sacrifice once at a specific time from the eternal existing person of God, The Son, completely outside of time.

Jesus is recorded as saying "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." in John 14. It is clear in this passage that Jesus is not just talking about his physical self on earth at this time but is referring to his eternal existence with God, the Father. In this sense people could have known and acknowledged God the Son long before the physical appearance of Jesus Christ, in fact right back to Adam.

Note that 'paradise' as used by Jesus to one of the crucified thieves is simply the anglicised version of the Greek for 'garden' - no more - no less.

Also worth noting that after physical death of his physical body, Christ was able to be his true Godself and could therefore be omnipresent and could therefore visit 'spirits in the world of the dead' (whatever that precisely means) and be with the thief in 'Paradise' at the same time. Note that after his resurrection he could simply appear at any place by will, but not before (he had to walk across the lake).

So what can we deduce without placing what may be unreasonable reliance on the literalness of the words used.

First it is likely that there is consciousness immediately after physical death (although there are counter arguments and there are many christians who believe in 'soul-sleep'). Either way during this time no on who has died has any sort of body.

It is likely that those who have placed their faith and hope in God (Father/Son effectively the same according to John 14) will have an existence within His presence.

It is worth noting here that Jesus did not mention religion. He did not say you had to be a Jew or act in accordance with any specific religious codes, but rather, 'If you love me (God), you will obey what I command'. We know the encapsulation of this command from other scripture, it is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself. So throughout human history, this has been what has been required. This is not subscribe to a specific religion and get your 'passport to paradise' rubber stamped. Only God will decide who has carried out these commandments.


The existence within his presence we know little about it but it will be as pleasant in some way as being in a 'garden'. Those who have cut themselves off from God of their own valition and action will get in death what they chose in life, no access to Him, although without the earthly material and transient pleasures of Earth. ('Hell is a prison locked from the inside', - C.S. Lewis). Ultimately at the end of time, people will be judged for eternity and new forms of spiritual bodies issued. Again we do not have enough details to be hard and fast as to what occurs thereafter in any literal sense but again those who chose an existence separate from God will now certainly have that for eternity. Maybe this will produce in them a form of regret and spiritual torture which earthly captives confirm is often worse than the physical torture they have had to endure. This is just conjecture on my part.

Note that It is not God who is punishing people for not following 'His chosen religion'. People do have a natural bent towards believing in an almighy being. Atheism as a mass belief is relatively new (and is still not a majority viewpoint across the entire world even now). This basic belief in God can be blamed on primitivism or backwardness or superstition or whatever atheists may choose to call it but basically people make thier own choice of atheism over theism. They also choose their own actions in this life in regard to their fellow people. For whatever (what they may consider good reason) they may choose to not have anything to do with God. That is a choice made in life which seems to follow into death.

If God is all that is good, then a total absence of God in a future existence would be 'hell' by any definition as it would imply no love, no fellowship, no joy etc.. By contrast there would be total mistrust, hatred, and general nastiness. In fact it would be like a whole world inhabited by some people we can all recognise who base their whole lives on their own personal materialistic power and wealth and become miserable lonely misanthropists, as a consequence. Some atheists would I am sure say that there are some like that who call themselves 'christians' and I would not disagree.

Only God decides a person's eternal destiny and He is just. Non of us mortals down here on earth have the knowledge or right to make that judgment.


kind regards,



Gordon.
 
redarmy11 said:
No, I have another question. Didn't Jesus take all our sins with us when he died on the cross? How can we still be born in sin when Jesus wiped out the debt?

No, Jesus redeemed all our sins, that is, he payed the price. The sins are still sins, but they are forgiven sins, and forgotten. Jesus does not justify us through all his own effort, but he requires some of our own effort as well. Its not just a one-sided thing.

Our goal is not to have a "relationship with Jesus Christ." Our goal is much more profound: to have union with Christ, to be crucified with him. We are transformed interiorily.
 
It is worth noting here that Jesus did not mention religion. He did not say you had to be a Jew or act in accordance with any specific religious codes, but rather, 'If you love me (God), you will obey what I command'. We know the encapsulation of this command from other scripture, it is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself. So throughout human history, this has been what has been required. This is not subscribe to a specific religion and get your 'passport to paradise' rubber stamped. Only God will decide who has carried out these commandments.
"On this rock I shall build my Church (ekklesia-assembly)" This is a religious statement. Christ established a eucharistic covenant with his people "Do this in memory of me" another religious statement that initiates a ritual.
 
Gordon said:
If God is all that is good, then a total absence of God in a future existence would be 'hell' by any definition as it would imply no love, no fellowship, no joy etc..
Are atheists not capable of love, fellowship or joy? An absence of God would be 'hell' only if you equate God with love. Many do not - I'm sure you can accept that many hundreds of millions of people are capable of getting along fine without him, going about their everyday lives, ducking and dodging the bullets and bombs of religious wars.
 
just the way it is. one has to have the office of leader.
I think it's most likely because traditionally, women are expected to get married and raise families, so women having the chastity that comes along with being a priest would be viewed as undesirable.
 
redarmy11 said:
Are atheists not capable of love, fellowship or joy? An absence of God would be 'hell' only if you equate God with love. Many do not - I'm sure you can accept that many hundreds of millions of people are capable of getting along fine without him, going about their everyday lives, ducking and dodging the bullets and bombs of religious wars.

the love, fellowship, and joy of atheists is ephemeral and worthless, not being born of God, it is not worth talking about. Do not judge the Truth by what the many people suppose about God, but search for yourself by reading the writings of great philosophers and saints: Plato, St Augustine, John Paul II, etc.
 
redarmy11 said:
Are atheists not capable of love, fellowship or joy? An absence of God would be 'hell' only if you equate God with love. Many do not - I'm sure you can accept that many hundreds of millions of people are capable of getting along fine without him, going about their everyday lives, ducking and dodging the bullets and bombs of religious wars.

Atheists along with any other unsaved person would not be capable of unconditional good or unconditional love or unconditional joy. They are not capable of it.

You must look at the motives of man. Motives show the truth of the heart.
 
Atheists along with any other unsaved person would not be capable of unconditional good or unconditional love or unconditional joy. They are not capable of it.
That's what is technically called talking out of your arse. Correction: blinkered arse.
 
Jenyar,

Where do you get the idea that she did not know the consequences of her actions? She had information on the knowledge of good and evil, meta-knowledge that God gave them.
That cannot be true; otherwise what is the point of the tree that gave that knowledge.

If they could doubt that, they could doubt anything.
Yes precisely, without the knowledge to distinguish between good and evil all our decisions would be strange. We take it for granted but A&E didn’t have that knowledge BEFORE that ate from the tree.

Especially if you consider that we have inherited the knowledge they gained, and still have the problem with sin and temptation.
Right, so now we do have the knowledge and we should be held responsible for our actions, but A&E didn’t have that knowledge BEFORE they ate and thus cannot be held responsible for disobeying since they would not have known it was wrong.
 
Quigly,

Atheists along with any other unsaved person would not be capable of unconditional good or unconditional love or unconditional joy. They are not capable of it.
In which case Christians would be equally incapable of unconditional love since the implication is that a supernatural influence is creating the love and not the person.

But clearly you are wrong since I have no trouble with these emotions and have been an atheist for decades.
 
Cris said:
DJ,

Well no I am afraid not. The action you take is not contingent on whether God knows or not. To claim as you do is a modal error.


Cris,

What is a modal error? I've heard the terminology before, and know that its some kind of error in logic, but could you let me know in detail what excatly that error is?

Also, can you present me with a time that you come to this fork in the road, God knows your will go right, but you go left? So where are you making a choice to go right?
 
Lawdog said:
Now just hold on there Cris. Adam and Eve were strong enough to resist temptation. They must take the greater weight of the responsibility. The mysterious question that you should be asking is this: Why does Original Sin get passed on to us, after all, what did we do wrong?

Why would Adam and Eve, if made perfect or good or whatever, be in any position to question anything if they were made such and lived in Eden, in which no sin should have existed? Their ignorance of temptation should not be a reason to forever punish mankind. That is certainly not the act of a loving god who clearly misplaced his wrath.
 
Lawdog said:
All Christians agree on the point of original sin.

So what? There are so many things Christians don't agree, as has been shown.
 
Sin is a most horrible offense to God and results in Eternal Death. Even a seemingly minor disobedience to God is incomprehensible in its evil. It is only that we have become numb to reality that we do not immediately recognize this. The sin of Adam and Eve was surely by default, since it was not entirely their fault. nevertheless the penalties attatched to it remained. God had said that it was death to eat of the tree. There was no way for him to go back or unsay an eternal decree. The Word, the law, is eternal and cannot be unsaid.
This is why Christ had to die, to pay the penalty as a Man for all men. whereas Adam lost the entire race of humans by his sin, Christ redeemed the entire race.
 
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