Before Jesus

[Quigly]

That's what is technically called talking out of your arse. Correction: blinkered arse.

Man is capable of conditional good and conditional love and conditional joy, but not unconditional. When you look to the motives of man, you will always find flaw. Whether you as an individual will admit flaw or not is a seperate issue. Humanity is always self seeking. Within that you will find times that humanity capable of conditional good like giving money to the poor or sponsoring a kid in a third world country. You will find those capable of conditionally loving others. I'll love you if I get something in return...

It's not math, but deals with the emotional psyche(sp?) of man.

Christians aren't capable of unconditional acts either apart from Christ/God.

 

[(Q)]

Sin is a most horrible offense to God and results in Eternal Death. Even a seemingly minor disobedience to God is incomprehensible in its evil. It is only that we have become numb to reality that we do not immediately recognize this. The sin of Adam and Eve was surely by default, since it was not entirely their fault. nevertheless the penalties attatched to it remained. God had said that it was death to eat of the tree. There was no way for him to go back or unsay an eternal decree. The Word, the law, is eternal and cannot be unsaid.
This is why Christ had to die, to pay the penalty as a Man for all men. whereas Adam lost the entire race of humans by his sin, Christ redeemed the entire race.

Sounds like mankind was set-up from the get-go and didn't stand a chance. Why would god create Eden with delicious food to eat (apples) and then decree eating that food would be death? It makes no sense other than god wanted mankind to sin.

 

[Lawdog]

Man was allowed to eat of any other of the many fruits of the garden.

 

[(Q)]

Man was allowed to eat of any other of the many fruits of the garden.

So, why not the apples? A set-up.

 

[Oli]

Man is capable of conditional good and conditional love and conditional joy, but not unconditional.

That's your view.

When you look to the motives of man, you will always find flaw.

What jaundiced view of humanity you have.

Humanity is always self seeking. Within that you will find times that humanity capable of conditional good like giving money to the poor or sponsoring a kid in a third world country. You will find those capable of conditionally loving others.

The mother who dies to save her children, the friend who donates a kidney knowing it could shorten his own life... what's conditional about giving money to the poor? What is asked in return?

I'll love you if I get something in return...

And when I've loved it's been because that person was who she was. In one case nothing was given to me... but it didn't stop me loving her.

Christians aren't capable of unconditional acts either apart from Christ/God.

If that is true for all christians then you've achieved something: I will no longer argue with christians since they appear to deserve only pity. And it wouldn't be fair to point that they're delusional as well as cheated about love.

 

[Lawdog]

So, why not the apples? A set-up.

You are asking why did God forbid the fruit of that tree, it seems like he was tempting Man.

God was giving Man the chance to demonstrate his goodness and love of the divine law. By not eating of the forbidden fruit, Man could know that he himself was a good and wondrous creation (God of course already knew this), and he could know for sure that he was loyal and obedient and loved his father. By NOT eating of the tree, Adam could come to the enlightenment of self knowledge, and a deeper knowledge of God.

This is the opposite of the gnostic doctrine.

 

[(Q)]

God was giving Man the chance to demonstrate his goodness and love of the divine law. By not eating of the forbidden fruit, Man could know that he himself was a good and wondrous creation (God of course already knew this), and he could know for sure that he was loyal and obedient and loved his father.

That makes no sense. Why would god want man to demonstrate that which he already knew?

God was therefore wrong in his knowledge since mankind did the opposite of what he thought he knew.

God therefore was flawed and so was his creation, by YOUR logic.

 

[Lawdog]

That makes no sense. Why would god want man to demonstrate that which he already knew?

Man did not know for sure if he was good or pleasing to his Eternal Father. God knows everthing, so he did not need to test Adam. Adam was tested that he might discover himself.

 

[Lawdog]

How does this not satisfy your conundrum?

 

[Quigly]

That's your view..

That is correct

What jaundiced view of humanity you have..

It would be haughty to think there is any good and righteous action in man other than that which Christ brings when we allow him in our lives.

The mother who dies to save her children, the friend who donates a kidney knowing it could shorten his own life... what's conditional about giving money to the poor? What is asked in return?.

When money is given to the poor, it fulfills some emotional piece of that person who gave. It isn't bad that conditional things exist, it is just that though...conditional. Many times things are done as what would seem righteous acts, when really they are only self-righteous at the core and fodder when compared to the righteousness of God. Actions are done many times to try to subconsciencely(sp?) atone oneself from past or present mistakes.

And when I've loved it's been because that person was who she was. In one case nothing was given to me... but it didn't stop me loving her..

Something is always transferred, even if it is to emotionally fill your void. Void isn't a bad thing though, so don't think I am being critical. Void in my mind just means incomplete or lacking of something... My person at its core feels that I fear people truelly knowing me because if they did they would leave me. This is one of my voids. Think about my crutch when it comes to conditional love.

If that is true for all christians then you've achieved something: I will no longer argue with christians since they appear to deserve only pity. And it wouldn't be fair to point that they're delusional as well as cheated about love.

It is true for all humanity. God help us. Without Christs atonement, we would be in trouble.

 

[Lawdog]

"My person at its core feels that I fear people truelly knowing me because if they did they would leave me. This is one of my voids. Think about my crutch when it comes to conditional love."

Use the sacraments and Christ will fill this void.

 

[Quigly]

"My person at its core feels that I fear people truelly knowing me because if they did they would leave me. This is one of my voids. Think about my crutch when it comes to conditional love."

Use the sacraments and Christ will fill this void.

I am not catholic, but I do rely on Christ to fill or balance me. At the core of everyone is something that will affect negatively their view of themselves or the world around them..that is the void I speak of that truelly holds mankind back from the capacity of unconditional good or love.

 

[Lawdog]

That is good, and you are a great pain to our opponents.
If you ever wish to become Catholic, the Church will celebrate you.
There are many advantages to our faith.

 

[Oli]

It would be haughty to think there is any good and righteous.. etc.

So no one who hasn't "accepted christ" is capable of doing good? You're a sad individual.

When money is given to the poor, it fulfills some emotional piece of that person who gave

What utter crap. How about "Oh there's someone in need of help and I'm in a postion to provide it"?.

Actions are done many times to try to subconsciencely(sp?) atone oneself from past or present mistakes.

What, like helping someone worse off me than because I know from personal experience what it's like to be poor hungry and homeless? Oh yeah. It was guilt that I'd been in that position that made me do it.

Something is always transferred, even if it is to emotionally fill your void

When I said I got nothing in return I meant that nothing was treturned. How hard is that to understand?

My person at its core feels that I fear people truelly knowing me because if they did they would leave me.

Which means you're insecure. Get over it.

Think about my crutch when it comes to conditional love.

Your crutch is the last thing thing I want to think of when it comes to love...

It is true for all humanity. God help us. Without Christs atonement, we would be in trouble.

And if we had more people doing something and fewer looking to god for answers then we wouldn't be in trouble.

 

[Quigly]

So no one who hasn't "accepted christ" is capable of doing good? You're a sad individual.

conditional good--yes (you listening or not?)

What utter crap. How about "Oh there's someone in need of help and I'm in a postion to provide it"?.
What, like helping someone worse off me than because I know from personal experience what it's like to be poor hungry and homeless? Oh yeah. It was guilt that I'd been in that position that made me do it.

I never said there was anything wrong with conditional good, but I won't buy an argument that it was done with 100% pure motives. Again, my belief is that without Christ, man is in a fallen state of being. Incapable of producing unconditional good as I've put forth.

When I said I got nothing in return I meant that nothing was treturned. How hard is that to understand?

I am hard pressed to believe you.Relationships are co-dependant.

Which means you're insecure. Get over it.

We all have our flaws. I have at least recognized my internal struggle

Your crutch is the last thing thing I want to think of when it comes to love...

Well, if not mine, look to your own or those you care about, because truelly man is a creature that needs fileo type of love.

And if we had more people doing something and fewer looking to god for answers then we wouldn't be in trouble.

I believe it requires both faith and action, but I wouldn't expect you to buy that.

 

[Oli]

conditional good--yes (you listening or not?

Depends. You're the one that said

It would be haughty to think there is any good and righteous action in man

you tagged on the "except from christ" but christ is an unproven speculation. And I showing you below that you're wrong.

but I won't buy an argument that it was done with 100% pure motives.

So don't buy it. That's your personal belief. It's incorrect. I told you why I did it. I was in aposition to help, he needed the help. Oh wait. I'm a secret believer...?

I am hard pressed to believe you.Relationships are co-dependant.

It wasn't a relationship. I loved her. She wasn't interested.

I believe it requires both faith and action, but I wouldn't expect you to buy that.

Nope. Concern for others and action. A realisation that we're all in this together and action...

 

[(Q)]

Man did not know for sure if he was good or pleasing to his Eternal Father. God knows everthing, so he did not need to test Adam. Adam was tested that he might discover himself.

Then, god DID setup man for failure.

 

[Quigly]

Depends. You're the one that said you tagged on the "except from christ"

Sorry, I should have said "It would be haughty to think there is any unconditional good and unconditional righteous action in man

but christ is an unproven speculation. And I showing you below that you're wrong.

To some it is as yourself, to others, it is proven reality that the live and breath.

So don't buy it. That's your personal belief. It's incorrect. I told you why I did it. I was in aposition to help, he needed the help. Oh wait. I'm a secret believer...?

How can you presume to be correct and others incorrect on a subject that you know so little about?

It wasn't a relationship. I loved her. She wasn't interested.

I am sure it is personal, but my question would be, "What caused you to love her? Beauty? Skills? Gentleness? Sweetness? Affection? The fact that she wasn't interested? (The uncatchable chase?)"

Nope. Concern for others and action. A realisation that we're all in this together and action...

Relying on our ownselves is to say that us finite limited beings with our finite limited concern and our finite limited reality and our finite limited unity and our finite limited action will be able to have a greater effect and affect than a most perfect and infinite God. To what end of arrogance?

 

[Oli]

How can you presume to be correct and others incorrect on a subject that you know so little about?

Read my words and then read yours. I stated what I did, and why. And you assume to tell ME why I did it? Get real.

"What caused you to love her?

What causes anyone to love someone? Certainly not the unatainability - I didn't know she wasn't interested until too late.

Relying on our ownselves is to say that us finite limited beings with our finite limited concern and our finite limited reality and our finite limited unity and our finite limited action will be able to have a greater effect and affect than a most perfect and infinite God. To what end of arrogance?

Always assuming of course that perfect and infinte god exists... Where's his help? I said if we all actually did something then we could sort things out. A bit at a time maybe. But I'd rather do that than rely on a nebulous "god".
Arrogance? Nope. Concern for others? Certainly.

 

[Quigly]

Read my words and then read yours. I stated what I did, and why. And you assume to tell ME why I did it? Get real.

I was speculating as there is plenty I don't know of your situation, but plenty I do know about humanity and the psychological makeup of humans.

What causes anyone to love someone? Certainly not the unatainability - I didn't know she wasn't interested until too late.

Generally, when you love someone, they are picked on a number of qualities, but those qualities are ones that we as individuals adhere to be best suited to ourselves. How is that not selfish. Take my wife for an example..or I will...I love her because she cares for people, we communicate well, she is smart, beautiful, fun to be around, ect.. ect.. So I have found somebody that appeases what I see as fitting to myself. If she was ugly, mean, and stupid, I would have never started a friendship and relationship with her because those aren't qualities that fit me. Doesn't that sound selfish...It is. All conditional love is.

Always assuming of course that perfect and infinte god exists... Where's his help? I said if we all actually did something then we could sort things out. A bit at a time maybe. But I'd rather do that than rely on a nebulous "god".
Arrogance? Nope. Concern for others? Certainly.

Who says that he hasn't already set in place procedures to guide humanity? The ignorance of man or the ignoring of truth and what is right is no fault of his own. Why would it be. If he wanted robots, he would have made them.