Before Jesus

[Cris]

quigly,

it will be too late because they lived by sight and not faith

LOL. So all the rational people go to hell and all the idiots go to heaven.

I totally understand that - it is so religious.

 

[Provita]

well, if all the smart guys go to hell, im sure they have already racked their brains together to somewhat form a fire extinguisher out of a toothpick, a pack of gum, and a stick, and put out the lake of fire... or they made some type of boat and got out of the lake to whatever is on the shores... lakes cant be endless, cauise by definition, lakes are a small body of water (and yet they r on fire ) ... so... considering einstein is probably down there... we r already 'saved' from eternal flames

perhaps hitler already devised a plan to overthrow the devil, after all, hitler doesnt take orders, he takes over and gives them... ofcaorse then... hopefully he doesnt become the devil and rule us... rather we just invade heaven and ill diguise myself as an angel

 

[Cris]

But wait - Hitler was inherrently irrational so he must be in heaven. Remember he did kill several million jews who murdered God's son and I'm sure God would recognize the biblical parallels betwen that and some of his own past mass exterminations. I'm sure they are great pals.

 

[Quigly]

Way to miss the point of my post.

 

[redarmy11]

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

So Jesus and the holy angels will watch the torture? Do they get off on suffering?

Are you asking a question or making a judgement as to the character of God?

If you think God is wrong then just say so.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Clearly, I'm making a judgement about the character of God. It's clear from your original quote that the 'lamb' of God is a bit of a sadist - is it not? I've answered your question. Now read the quote and answer mine - honestly (God is watching).

 

[DJ Erock]

God is perfect which means his motives are always 100% pure. God is good, which means every action or inaction he takes is of 100% pure motive.
Because God knows what you are going to do, doesn't eliminate your responsibility to do what you must to be saved. Because he knows what you are going to do, doesn't eliminate your will. The reason free will doesn't exist is because every fiber of humanity and this earth is ingrained with a sinful nature. Sin drives man to make decisions. To follow Christ is to die to this sin nature and be reborn into a christlike nature or a nature that has both 100% perfection and 100% pure motive. By being reborn, you don't remove yourself from mistakes as there is always a battle between doing what you are engrained to do and putting that aside for Christ's nature, but you remove yourself from the bondage of those mistakes, because now you have one that will restore your position before God. A mediator that is Jesus.

To blame God is a cop out and removes your personal responsibility for your actions or inactions. If you want to blame him, tell him its all his fault and you can't trust him, but at least tell him you will be open enough for him to reveal truth of himself to you.

So given the situation I presented before, where I come to a fork in the road and can go right or left, and God knows I will go right, where is the choice in my will? If it were within my will, I could go left, but since God knows I will go right, then it is impossible for me to go left. You say, "Because he knows what you are going to do, doesn't eliminate your will." Yet it cannot be possible for my will to go against what God knows. There is only one possible course for your life time, the one which God knows of, and so there can be no free will, as you are never able to choose a path that God doesn't know about. At least this is the logical progression that should follow from the Christian idea of God.

 

[Novacane]

At least in this thread, most of the responses (intelligent or otherwise) are from those who have either met God once or know him personally.

 

[redarmy11]

At least in this thread, most of the responses (intelligent or otherwise) are from those who have either met God once or know him personally.

Really!?? Do tell more! What's He like? Does He really have a big, grey beard? Is He really the sadistic dictator that the Bible would have us believe He is? So many questions!

 

[Provita]

But wait - Hitler was inherrently irrational so he must be in heaven. Remember he did kill several million jews who murdered God's son and I'm sure God would recognize the biblical parallels betwen that and some of his own past mass exterminations. I'm sure they are great pals.

ah, your right, the Vatican DID support Hitler during WW2 anyway

---

Conversations like these make me want to hit myself for once being Roman Catholic...

 

[Novacane]

Really!?? Do tell more! What's He like? Does He really have a big, grey beard? Is He really the sadistic dictator that the Bible would have us believe He is? So many questions!

I imagine he's probably an easy going little old man with glasses who likes to smoke cigars, wears a hair piece with a little bonner cap sometimes and likes John Denver songs. Oh God, could I be correct?

 

[KennyJC]

The Church teaches the tradition that Jesus entered into the underworld and rescued those who had no benefit of redemption before the crucifixion. This is why Jesus could say to the theif on the cross "you will be with me in paradise this very evening" But how could that be if the theif was not babtized and died before Jesus did?

Jesus went to the underworld and released the souls of the just.

Just like the theif on the cross, those who trusted God would not perish forever, but could enter paradise.

I can't believe I belong to the same species as you.

Let's go over our diagram again: Draw a picture of your head, and write "FANTASY" inside your skull. Outside of your head just write "REALITY". Stare at the diagram for 10 minutes in the morning, then start your day.

 

[Cris]

DJ,

So given the situation I presented before, where I come to a fork in the road and can go right or left, and God knows I will go right, where is the choice in my will? If it were within my will, I could go left, but since God knows I will go right, then it is impossible for me to go left. You say, "Because he knows what you are going to do, doesn't eliminate your will." Yet it cannot be possible for my will to go against what God knows. There is only one possible course for your life time, the one which God knows of, and so there can be no free will, as you are never able to choose a path that God doesn't know about. At least this is the logical progression that should follow from the Christian idea of God.

Well no I am afraid not. The action you take is not contingent on whether God knows or not. To claim as you do is a modal error.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

So the term "hell" is somewhat ambiguous. If Hades is hell and is destroyed in the lake then what people usually think of hell is really the lake of fire, right?

Most of the false views of Hell comes from the catholic twist on scripture. But that is the norm with catholicism adding pagan concepts of hell to the Biblical concepts of Hell and coming up with a mongrel hell.

Concepts of Hell vary a lot between people who believe in a hell. Some people look upon hell as the kingdom of satan where satan sits on his thrown and directs the toucher of the naughty people. This view of hell has nothing to do with the Biblical Hell. satan has not been to hell and will never go to hell satan will go directly into the lake of fire.

Several years ago we had a long debate here over these issues and discovered that Hades, hell, and the lake of fire were not as clear-cut as your references suggest. I need to find those threads. I believe what we found was that the eternal torture is contardicted elsewhere and that the lake of fire is the destruction of the bad souls - i.e. infinite extinction and that there is no eternal torture as is commonly perceived.

Hell or hades was then shown to simply mean the grave - the first death - the physical death of the body, where everybody goes initially before judegement. And that somewhat fits with your passages.

Yes i vaguely remember a discussion on this issue before, suffice to say that conclusions reached by some do not align with what Jesus had to say about hell and therefore are incorrect views. Some supposed "christians"??? also believe that Hell is a momentary experience for the damned and that they will be destroyed. This is a false view based more on what people want desperately to believe rather than the truth that is more confronting.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

How is it fair for God to send anyone to hell? God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good. God knows everything, and whether you like it or not, that means that you don't have free will. If you come to a fork in the road where you can go right or left, and God knows you will go left, that means you have no possiblity of going right, and no free will. Seeing as this is true, and as God is all-good, then it would be wrong of God (not all-good) to send anyone to Hell for actions that they had no control over.

So if you people believe that your God is really who the church says he is, then no one could have gone to Hell, pre or post Jesus.

Your view is flawed. You do have free will and that is the reason why God is justified in judging you. God indeed knows beforehand what road you will choose but you are the one whom chooses it and you are the one whom will be justified or condemned for your choice.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

well, if all the smart guys go to hell, im sure they have already racked their brains together to somewhat form a fire extinguisher out of a toothpick, a pack of gum, and a stick, and put out the lake of fire... or they made some type of boat and got out of the lake to whatever is on the shores... lakes cant be endless, cauise by definition, lakes are a small body of water (and yet they r on fire ) ... so... considering einstein is probably down there... we r already 'saved' from eternal flames

perhaps hitler already devised a plan to overthrow the devil, after all, hitler doesnt take orders, he takes over and gives them... ofcaorse then... hopefully he doesnt become the devil and rule us... rather we just invade heaven and ill diguise myself as an angel

See what i mean Cris about false view of what hell is. This post is a classic example of it. "overthrow the devil" ? "hopefully he doesnt become the devil and rule us" ?

The devil rules no one in hell. satan rules people on earth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

lol i just read this in the post from Provita

"Conversations like these make me want to hit myself for once being Roman Catholic... "

Thank you Provita you make it clear where your twisted views of hell come from.

Need i say more.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

Your view is flawed. You do have free will and that is the reason why God is justified in judging you.

No that is not valid. The view is flawed because of an error in logic. But a God who intentionally designed and created people with flaws has no right to judge them for his atrocious design error. With omnipotence he could have easily created everyone without a flaw, that he chose not to means he deliberately wanted many people to be tortured in hell. That is not the sign of a loving god but an evil monster.

God indeed knows beforehand what road you will choose but you are the one whom chooses it and you are the one whom will be justified or condemned for your choice.

But if such a god had provided more appropriate guidance and education and a clear view of his objectives then no one would have had a problem making the correct choices.

 

[Cris]

So does anyone know whether Islam and Judaism have Hell concepts. I ought to know this but I can't remember, and am too tired to do the research. But I seem to recall that the bloodthirsty hell concept was introduced by the all-loving Christian religion.

 

[Adstar]

Clearly, I'm making a judgement about the character of God. It's clear from your original quote that the 'lamb' of God is a bit of a sadist - is it not? I've answered your question. Now read the quote and answer mine - honestly (God is watching).

God is perfect. All who hate God hate perfection therefore all who hate perfection are evil and they deserve whatever eternal outcome Perfection deems appropriate.

Accept it or reject it? It's your free will choice to love truth or love unrighteousness. Its your free will to embrace the will of God or rebel against the will of God, It is your free will to show yourself as loving good or evil. And it is Gods power and will to do with you as He deems fit.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

God is perfect.

No, that is not possible. His omnipotence means he has the capability to create people that were also perfect. That he chose to create something imperfect and then choose to murder billions of them through no fault of their own means, by any reasonable standard, that he is far from perfect, unless you call such murders a perfect scenario.