Baron Max banned again?

In this case he actually is/was a bitter, old bad faith troll, hence his nonstop of usage of exclamations and "LOL!"

Huh? Bitter? Bad faith? I have "fought" with Baron more than anyone else here and I've never seen him as either. He's irascible, if thats the right word for it [no its not, I want a word for appears irritable], and in his own words:

Fraggle, it might be difficult for you to believe, but ...I've seldom been truly angry in my whole life. Yes, some little ones, for a short time, etc.

And wanna' know something else interesting? I've seldom been angry at this site, even some of my most "angry" posts were typed up while I was laughing and having fun ....mostly prodding the liberals about their silly dreams of u-fuckin'-topia!

What I find interesting is that number of people that seem to think I'm angry when I post contrary opinions or thoughts. If you say cold beer is good, as much as I like cold beer, I'm most likely to say that cold beer sucks.

I hope, sincerely, that my contrary posts have made a few people think. I hope it's also made some people less willing to make snap, quick judgements about issues. Members here are horrible about making snap judgements.

Okay, now that I've posted it, and realize how little it has to do with the topic of sarcasm, you're welcome to delete at your earliest convenience.

Baron Max

Seriously, how hard is it to simply not respond to someone who irritates you?
 
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If he posts purely to be contrary, then it means that either:

(1) he is, in many cases, posting ideas that he himself believes to be falsehoods.

(2) he operates on the basis of eliciting as much attention from others as possible rather than on the basis of being as logical as possible.

(3) one of his main purposes here is to annoy.

None of those are good things. Truth be told, all of them are bad things.

He may state he does not get angry, but he reacts very badly and requests others' posts to be deleted when you make fun of him using ageism, as I have done. It embarrasses him. :cool:
 
He is actually way more uptight than most people here, but he hides it. He doesn't hesitate to report posts that offend his ideals or at least the ideals he pretends to have.

I'd need to see evidence of that, and also hear an explaination from Baron. Since Baron is so fond of pointing out hypocrisy in others, I suspect that he may report posts simply to see if the moderation is as zealous in applying the rules to posters other than him. From what I have seen, once you're on the shit list, you are targeted. It's essentially a downward spiral.

I know of at least two occasions where he reported my replies for ageist statements that I made against him. Fortunately, none of the moderators cared. :cool:

Yes, I've seen several posters attack Max on the basis of his age. Do you think that is acceptable?

I believe most do. Most people on the board are open-minded enough that they can be persuaded to alter their beliefs even a little based upon the statements of others, especially when those statements originate from others who already hold similar ideals as they do.

I recently made a poll which suggests that a significant proportion of the membership (40+%) have NEVER persuaded people to alter their beliefs on sciforums.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=98816

As such, I'd argue that it's more than just Baron Max and S.A.M who are being inflexible. Indeed, I'd have to conclude that the very environment of a public debate forum is not conducive to productive discussion. So when people complain about 'trolls' refusing to concede a point or engaging in posturing, all I can think is 'what do you expect?'

I've also noticed a trend where those who complain about the inflexibility of posters have a tendency to attack those who have the audacity to disagree with them. So it shouldn't come as any surprise to them that the poster won't be bullied, harassed and belittled into conceding a point, even if they are in the wrong.

As James R has shown, baron is not interested in critical thinking or opposing views.

Of course Baron is interested in opposing views. He's always putting them forward!

He will simply reiterate debunked points over and over and over in order to maintain his image.

You're describing a fair proportion of people on sci.

And worse: baron trolls with no agenda of logical argumentation.

I don't agree. Sometimes Baron offers up sound logic. Sometimes he offers up shit logic. Sometimes he engages in hyperbole and conflates another poster's views. Sometimes he's right on the money and catches them being inconsistent. Some of his posts are crap. Some of them ain't.

The other agenda pushers that you are talking about are actually trying to make a point.

As is Baron. Sometimes his points are utter crock and based on fallicious logic and hyperbole, but he's still trying to make a point.

Max on the other hand is a persona non grata who never posts anything scientific

From memory, Baron has posted in the science subforums. And even if he does not post anything scientific, why should he? Can't he simply express his opinions and criticise the views of others without being censured?

I imagine that if you visit Max's real life house, you will find nobody living there except for an old and probably overweight slob sitting at his computer nude and surrounded by an absurd number of cats.

No wonder he reported you.
 
If he posts purely to be contrary, then it means that either:

(1) he is, in many cases, posting ideas that he himself believes to be falsehoods.

(2) he operates on the basis of eliciting as much attention from others as possible rather than on the basis of being as logical as possible.

(3) one of his main purposes here is to annoy.

None of those are good things. Truth be told, all of them are bad things.

He may state he does not get angry, but he reacts very badly and requests others' posts to be deleted when you make fun of him using ageism, as I have done. It embarrasses him. :cool:



Its a discussion forum, he posts anything as long as its relevant to the topic rather than attacking the person [as you do, quite often], its not trolling. Simply because you cannot control yourself its not his problem. The Baron is rarely off topic or rarely makes personal attacks [I was one of the rare ones and he never attacked me directly].

I have a bigger issue with personal attacks and mods/admin going around calling people names and verbal abuse by atheists on this forum than I have with Barons jesting
 
....and in his own words:

Originally Posted by Baron Max said:
....If you say cold beer is good, as much as I like cold beer, I'm most likely to say that cold beer sucks.


In other words, he's deliberately trolling. It's nice of him to admit it. Thus, he deserves to be banned as per Sciforums rules.

Q.E.D.
 
hercules said:
In other words, he's deliberately trolling. It's nice of him to admit it. Thus, he deserves to be banned as per Sciforums rules.

He admitted to no such thing.
 
Mordea: that poll isn't useful. A more meaningful poll would have asked the persuadee, not persuader, "Have you ever altered your beliefs based on the statements of another at sciforums?" Probably most would state yes. You need to frame the question correctly.

SAM: I rarely use personal attacks but when I do, they are reserved purely for retards, goons, douchebags, and brats who need a good smackdown. In every other case, the other 99% of my posts on this forum, I am extremely civil to anyone else who is civil.

Baron Max's method of argumentation is not civil. For example, a couple months ago he made a habit of calling a group of very calm, very respectful users on this forum bigots because they themselves were intolerant of racism and such. His argument amounted to (paraphrasing) "you are bigoted against bigots" and "you have to tolerate us intolerant people, or else you aren't tolerant" and so forth. To put it another way, he was making excuses for saying harmful things about others and was making frivolous accusations of bigotry against users here. Now, if I belonged to one of the groups he was bigoted against, such as muslims, then I would be insulted by that. Probably many people would because (1) he is using a troll rationale and (2) it demeans the acts of true bigotry that take place against board members. Is that a good thing? I don't think it is.
 
Originally Posted by WillNever
If he posts purely to be contrary, then it means that either:

(1) he is, in many cases, posting ideas that he himself believes to be falsehoods.

Ideas that he may *perceive* to be falsehoods. There's nothing wrong with playing Devil's advocate for ideas you don't personally accept. Didn't Aristotle say something along the lines of 'it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain an idea without accepting it'. If anything, it shows flexibility on Baron's behalf.
 
Huh? Since when is it "trolling" to take a position you don't personally support?
Posting things that you don't really believe in order to provoke reactions from people is the definition of trolling. (Although I'll admit I'm old enough to remember the days of Usenet when it meant pretending to be ignorant of things so that people would attempt to explain them to you, with the goal of seeing exactly how stupid you could convince the other person you were).

It's fine to "play devil's advocate," but not if you goal is merely to provoke people and bog down threads by making people spend a lot of time explaining in painful detail why your reasoning is faulty. That's usually what he's doing with his constant faulty "reductio ad absurdum" arguments, in which is posits an extreme position that doesn't actually follow logically from the premises of whoever he's arguing against.

He also seems to have a thing for repeating the same simplistic arguments over and over again in different threads on different topics, such as his "why can't a community of like-minded people make their own rules?" argument, which I think has been thoroughly debunked by just about everyone here at one time or another over the years. No mater how many times he has his ass handed to him trying to defend it, he keeps whipping it out at every opportunity. Again, that's classic troll behavior; trotting out the same simplistic argument over and over again, even though you've failed to defend it numerous times in the past.

It's all those behaviors taken together - the stupidly bad attempts at reductio ad absurdum, the constantly posting already-refuted arguments, the being contrary for the sake of being contrary - that makes me label him as a troll. Unlike some other people here, I don't think he's an angry guy; in fact, I believe him when he says he never gets upset about what people say about him, etc. Trolls never get upset about what people call them; they're just trying to sew discord and deliberately provoking people into posting long replies to stupid arguments. If anything, it probably amuses him greatly that his trolling can provoke others into such personal attacks.
 
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Why do people post long replies and stupid arguments to him?
I presume it's because most people haven't realized that he's trolling, and mistake his inanity for a good-faith attempt at engaging in discussion, rather than a mere attempt to get people worked up and create arguments. In other words, because he's a successful troll.

I don't generally bother posting more than a few sentences in reply to him any more, if that.
 
I presume it's because most people haven't realized that he's trolling, and mistake his inanity for a good-faith attempt at engaging in discussion, rather than a mere attempt to get people worked up and create arguments. In other words, because he's a successful troll.

I don't generally bother posting more than a few sentences in reply to him any more, if that.

Not really, most of the people who respond to him have been on the forums for quite a while. WillInever, for example used to have a different name in a previous life.

So why do they respond to his posts?
 
ISimply because you cannot control yourself its not his problem.

I have never been moderated for any statements I made against baronmax. baronmax however, has reported and complained about my replies to him over the past few months to at least two moderators. He has even requested some of my statements against him be stricken from public view after a thread was already locked. That qualifies as being image-conscious, and that isn't a positive quality. :cool:

As for him always being on topic, nay. One of his troll methods is undermine the topic of the thread and berate people for actually being on topic. Check this post out...
 
In other words, he's deliberately trolling. It's nice of him to admit it. Thus, he deserves to be banned as per Sciforums rules.

Q.E.D.
1) he definitely uses hyperbole and I think this is a self-referential example of it 2) playing devil's advocate should not be an offense in discussions. People should be allowed to take any position they want in a discussion for whatever their own reasons are. BM seems to like challenging people who he sees as having easy answers. So his contrariness can be aimed at what he perceives as smugness, naivtee or fantasy. He does not need to necessarily be arguing for a position he actually has in his 'real life'.

I agree with very few of BM's opinions - if my sense of them is correct - but he should be free to pretend he has any position he wants to.
 
One of the most fascinating aspects of posting on sciforums is how some people have to be responsible for how other people read, comprehend and respond to posts.

Whats wrong with controlling yourself?

You don't like what the Baron says? Use the ignore button. Its as easy as that, something which we cannot do in real life. And then [here is a thought] only people who want to respond to him, will do so.
 
That's true nasor, they seem to not want to address his practice of taking people's statements to enormous and not logically parellel extremes, and then arguing against those extremes instead.
 
One of the most fascinating aspects of posting on forums is how some people have to be responsible for how other people read, comprehend and respond to posts.

Whats wrong with controlling yourself?

Not sure, why don't you ask him? Surely if he were in control of his emotions, he would not care which of my insults against him remain in public view. :cool:
 
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