Atheists what is your proof?

[SolusCado]

you sure do leave yourself a lot of comfortable room by playing both sides of the fence, dontcha? it has been answered why many times. slavery violates others, is inhumane and uses them for unfair gain. those damaging and ill consequences are not just subjective but real which you continously ignore.

Ah, so you thought those were answers to the question? What makes such violation and inhumanity "evil"? You haven't even BEGUN to answer the question. You've merely taken the first step down the rabbit hole.

why do you not condone slavery? you have not given any reasons except because you follow christ.

That is correct. As I have said numerous times, my view of morality is DEFINED by Biblical teachings.

yet, you want to argue that slavery is just based on subjective feelings so not really about morality.

I have argued that the reasons being provided by the atheists on the forum is just based on subjective feelings, and as such meaningless beyond the self. Following Biblical teachings means I ascribe to doctrine shared by other Christians. This means that what we believe to be right and wrong is not necessarily relevant to what YOU think is right and wrong. Look up the definition of morality (I have posted the definition, but it appears to have been ignored). Morality is meaningless without a shared doctrine. If you aren't going to accept a theological one, then another must be provided.

that way, one can employ slavery when it suits them and not when it doesn't.

A red herring that doesn't actually apply to anything anyone on this thread has said.

and you have the nerve to say i'm the one who would be waffling.

I have said nothing about anyone waffling.

you're a good example of why many find religionists like you corrupt.

Empty insults do nothing to further the conversation.

 

[SolusCado]

Did you forget?
Inquisition, missionaries, holy wars, jihad ... etc.

Yes, as I said - both sides. Your point?

 

[SolusCado]

Gday,




A few posts up, birch said :

"slavery violates others, is inhumane and uses them for unfair gain."

A reasonable short answer.
Many other posts have given similar reasons.
But you ignore them and insists no answers have been given.
Why?


K.

That was posted while I was typing the last post, and I have since responded to it. I can only type so fast man.

 

[birch]

Ah, so you thought those were answers to the question? What makes such violation and inhumanity "evil"?

it damages and hurts people, unless you feel that is not important such as your witty feelings when christians aren't respected as you've made clear in your complaints on numerous threads.

do you not like the word "evil?" would you like to label it something else?

oh, didn't you even state that you believe that god created evil? my, my, you are all over the place randomly covering any bases you can, even if you are totally inconsistent.

That is correct. As I have said numerous times, my view of morality is DEFINED by Biblical teachings.

why? why do you follow these teachings? what is motivating you to do so?

why do these values or teachings appeal to you? would you not consider these based on morals?

eureka!

 

[SolusCado]

it damages and hurts people, unless you feel that is not important such as your witty feelings when christians aren't respected as you've made clear in your complaints on numerous threads.

do you not like the word "evil?" would you like to label it something else?

oh, didn't you even state that you believe that god created evil? my, my, you are all over the place randomly covering any bases you can, even if you are totally inconsistent.

If I have been insulting, I do very much apologize. I suppose that question was condescending. I am sorry. But what I am trying to say still stands - that the very concepts of good/evil or moral/immoral REQUIRE some defined standard. It is not good enough to go around calling thing "good" or "bad" if we cannot even agree on a standard of conduct. Since my standard is defined by something you don't believe in, I am just asking for a suitable alternative with which we can continue the conversation. For example, you may say that the goal is to never hurt anyone's feelings. In that case, we can obviously call slavery wrong.

And I didn't say God created evil. The Bible did. How does that put me "all over the place"? That God created evil doesn't somehow justify US committing evil (if that's what you are suggesting). Again, I compare it to a parent and children. Just because my parents could drive a car when I was 10 doesn't mean I can.

why? why do you follow these teachings? what is motivating you to do so?

why do these values or teachings appeal to you? would you not consider these based on morals?

eureka!

No, you have it reversed. Morals are based on the teachings, on the "doctrines" if you will. (Again, I am just using the definition of morality.) If you are suggesting that I follow those teaching because I inherently know them to be "good", I wouldn't argue with that, and I would further say that because that inherent knowledge is in fact part of the teachings of the Bible, my personal feelings provide added conviction to my beliefs.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Just point me to a post number if you like. As I've said over and over again, I haven't seen a post yet that addresses these points/questions.

You haven't seen them ?!
Have you had your eyes closed ?

Here is a quick list after a brief search :

birch:
"slavery is considered "wrong" as in unethical or immoral because it violates the rights of others life and they value their life as much as ours. "
Post #907

Mr MacGillivray
"All humans have equal rights."
Post #908

birch:
"how about slavery is wrong because it hurts others?"
Post #934

birch:
"slavery is disrespectful of another's life for your own"
Post #991

gmilam (speaking generally) :
"Was Jesus being subjective when he said,"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? "
Post #1006

birch:
"slavery is based on exploitation and disregard of another's life, so therefore it's immoral. why it's immoral is because all do care about life including the enslaver and thus the willful disregard of it is hypocritical."
Post # 1017

birch:
"slavery is just a form of oppression, bondage, exploitation and violation."
Post #1055

Ophiolite:
"The Golden Rule emerges as a neat executive summary of the range of behaviours and instinctual tendencies that evolution has developed to promote cooperation. It is on that basis that slavery is wrong. It is not the result of subjective thinking. It is the objective observation that we are hardwired to want to cooeparate and it is a further objective observation that it bloody well works, so lets climb on the bandwagon and work at it consciously as well."
(Quoted in post #1064 by jpappl)


How will you wave those comments away ?


K.

 

[birch]

For example, you may say that the goal is to never hurt anyone's feelings. In that case, we can obviously call slavery wrong.

are you fracking serious??? you think slavery just hurts their emotional "feelings" as in when someone makes a passing comment like they are fat etc?

i am done with you as it's clear you have been trying to minimize or ignore the damage of slavery's consequences.

 

[SolusCado]

Gday,
You haven't seen them ?!
Have you had your eyes closed ?

Here is a quick list after a brief search :

And I reject every one of those as incomplete:

birch:
"slavery is considered "wrong" as in unethical or immoral because it violates the rights of others life and they value their life as much as ours. "
Post #907

So morality is based an assumption of people's rights? Who (or what) defines such rights? Different cultures on our planet today have different ideas as to what a person's rights are. Which one is correct?

Mr MacGillivray
"All humans have equal rights."
Post #908

According to whom? The U.S. Constitution? That only applies to the US, and it is still an unproven assumption. That the founders "hold these truths to be self-evident" simply means they didn't have any logic to support their position.

birch:
"how about slavery is wrong because it hurts others?"
Post #934

I agree that it is wrong to hurt other only because the Bible teaches that to be so. By what objective rationale can you say that it is "wrong"? What makes it "wrong"? Again, morality means to be in alignment with a doctrine or code of ethics. What is the doctrine that says it is wrong to hurt others?

birch:
"slavery is disrespectful of another's life for your own"
Post #991

Once more - what makes that "evil"?

gmilam (speaking generally) :
"Was Jesus being subjective when he said,"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? "
Post #1006

Yes, actually. But Christ's teachings is a shared doctrine to which Christians ascribe. It is for this reason that Christians believe slavery is wrong. Are you saying that you also believe it is wrong because Christ commanded it?

birch:
"slavery is based on exploitation and disregard of another's life, so therefore it's immoral. why it's immoral is because all do care about life including the enslaver and thus the willful disregard of it is hypocritical."
Post # 1017

Actually not EVERYONE does care about life. Psychopaths for example do not. So it is morally acceptable for them to enslave, oppress, and kill? Most would say no, because of this undefinable (unless you follow a theology) sense of something being inherently good or evil.

birch:
"slavery is just a form of oppression, bondage, exploitation and violation."
Post #1055

And what makes those things evil?

Ophiolite:
"The Golden Rule emerges as a neat executive summary of the range of behaviours and instinctual tendencies that evolution has developed to promote cooperation. It is on that basis that slavery is wrong. It is not the result of subjective thinking. It is the objective observation that we are hardwired to want to cooeparate and it is a further objective observation that it bloody well works, so lets climb on the bandwagon and work at it consciously as well."
(Quoted in post #1064 by jpappl)

Yes, and the Golden Rule is a Biblical teaching, so once more we know why Christians consider slavery to be wrong. What is the rationale for atheists?

How will you wave those comments away ?


K.

See above.

 

[SolusCado]

are you fracking serious??? you think slavery just hurts their emotional "feelings" as in when someone makes a passing comment like they are fat etc?

i am done with you as it's clear you have been trying to minimize or ignore the damage of slavery's consequences.

No, I am simply trying to get you to identify some doctrine by which you consider slavery "immoral".

 

[gmilam]

Yes, and the Golden Rule is a Biblical teaching, so once more we know why Christians consider slavery to be wrong. What is the rationale for atheists?

It's not exclusively Biblical. Many people have realized this basic truth.

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

 

[birch]

No, I am simply trying to get you to identify some doctrine by which you consider slavery "immoral".

i've already explained the "doctrine." all life values itself and therefore it is evil to violate others.

even on principle and even if it is a part of the system. that is what we have to deal with but that is what i identify as evil and the very thing all life is trying to avoid in pursuit of their own life and happiness, including yourself.

so in real life, i do not think it is right for someone to slave for another and they gain with disregard for the other because they can or because of laziness.

 

[SolusCado]

It's not exclusively Biblical. Many people have realized this basic truth.

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

I didn't say it was exclusively Biblical, just that it originated in the Bible. With that said, I actually don't know the dates of each of those scriptures - it would be interesting to find out which said it first. In any case, unless you ascribe to one of those theologies, the question still remains - what makes it wrong?

 

[birch]

I didn't say it was exclusively Biblical, just that it originated in the Bible. With that said, I actually don't know the dates of each of those scriptures - it would be interesting to find out which said it first. In any case, unless you ascribe to one of those theologies, the question still remains - what makes it wrong?

what makes you think one can't figure this out on their own? they can.

evidently someone did, that's why they wrote it down.

 

[SolusCado]

i've already explained the "doctrine." all life values itself and therefore it is evil to violate others.

even on principle and even if it is a part of the system. that is what we have to deal with but that is what i identify as evil and the very thing all life is trying to avoid in pursuit of their own life and happiness, including yourself.

so in real life, i do not think it is right for someone to slave for another and they gain with disregard for the other because they can or because of laziness.

Which is again basically just an extrapolation of the Golden Rule, which we have already noted originated in Theology (though which one in particular I think is perhaps uncertain).

Incidentally, I am not suggesting that because this idea orginated in a theology then you can only believe it if you believe the rest of the theology. Instead, I am simply pointing out that there is no rational, objective, logical reason as to why slavery is "evil". It is "evil" because we say so, through one form of religion or another.

 

[SolusCado]

what makes you think one can't figure this out on their own? they can.

I didn't say they couldn't. I just said it would be interesting to know where the concept first originated.

 

[birch]

I didn't say they couldn't. I just said it would be interesting to know where the concept first originated.

how about life experience?

even if a previous written or oral doctrine was presented to someone, it would still have to be understood for it to register with the person it is presented to for it to be accepted or not. otherwise, mere superficial acceptance would be moot.

 

[birch]

Instead, I am simply pointing out that there is no rational, objective, logical reason as to why slavery is "evil". It is "evil" because we say so, through one form of religion or another.

I know you are lying because if that is what you really think, there would be no reason for you to not condone slavery as you claim.

merely stating that you don't condone slavery because you follow a doctrine is not understanding the why and what of the doctrine.

 

[SolusCado]

how about life experience?

even if a previous written or oral doctrine was presented to someone, it would still have to be understood for it to register with the person it is presented to for it to be accepted or not. otherwise, mere superficial acceptance would be moot.

I still think it would be interesting to know the timelines of the different scriptures. Even if it is just to see who wrote it down first. I'm not saying there is any particular import to it (necessarily), just that it would be an interesting anthropological factoid.

 

[gmilam]

I didn't say it was exclusively Biblical, just that it originated in the Bible. With that said, I actually don't know the dates of each of those scriptures - it would be interesting to find out which said it first. In any case, unless you ascribe to one of those theologies, the question still remains - what makes it wrong?

Au contraire, it did not originate with the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

One doesn't need to ascribe to any particular teaching to know common sense when they see it.

 

[SolusCado]

I know you are lying because if that is what you really think, there would be no reason for you to not condone slavery as you claim.

merely stating that you don't condone slavery because you follow a doctrine is not understanding the why and what of the doctrine.

First of all, don't call me a liar. Secondly, I am fully capable of separating my feelings from logic, so your comment doesn't even make sense. You know that I am lying when I say there is no logical reasoning because I don't condone slavery - even though I fully acknowledge that I don't condone slavery because of my personal religious beliefs? I thought we had already established that faith is not rational.