Atheists what is your proof?

The Sago Palm

Please have a look at this Sago Palm. I was looking at this plant yesterday in the garden and was thinking: how much human effort does take to make an artificial plant of this sort ?! It is going surely to take a lot of thought and fine hand work. Just consider the fine work that is needed to place the leaves.

God's work breathes, gets refreshed by water and the sun, reproduce and above all praises Him.



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There is no doubt in my mind that God does exist. So, atheists, the artificial one needs a lot of work and costs at least 200 UK Pounds (lifeless) while the growing one in the garden came into existence by nothing ?!
 
But you are suggesting it's a big hunk-o-static data within a different time environment. As long as it's there, it ages. If it ages then the data will eventually corrupt. That entropic effect would be detectable but we don't see it. Of course you could say that god periodically refurbishes the universe; however, that would be a detectable interaction. There are a couple of ways to potentially hide god in this scenario however.

* God created a universe which is non-static but has zero interaction with it.
* God didn't create the universe and doesn't interact with it.

I'm afraid you still aren't getting what I am trying to say. Scientifically, our universe is a static object. Time exists as a dimension similar to the three dimensions of space. It isn't a timeline upon which space moves, but together with the three dimensions of spaces makes up a fourth dimension. Theologically, for a deity to have created this entire universe, the would have to exist outside of both time and space, which means anything we experience that is time-related would not apply to the deity. Whether the deity experiences its own type of time or not is irrelevant. The entity that is "creation" would have been created with the entirety of time all at once (along with the entirety of space). Now, accepting the creation of the universe by a deity, everything that makes up the universe would also be part of creation, including all the natural laws. The entire creation, natural laws included, then become part of the intent of the creator. They are an expression of His Will, to use a Biblical term. Such ideas as intercession wouldn't even apply, as the creation is already "finished" from the perspective of the Creator (much like the DVD analogy). Furthermore, why would the deity create everything that works according to the natural laws implemented except for random bits here and there? Why wouldn't he have simply created everything in accordance with the laws? THAT is perfection, and that is what we have. A complete universe, from the instant of creation until the moment in dies, with all the complete boundaries of space as well, all created "at once" by God, in accordance with His Will.
 
"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.'" (Douglas Adams)

:) Excellent quote.
 
Wasn't on the recommended reading list when I was studying my physics degree, so no.

You clearly have a tenuous grasp of science and maths however. You are still in school, so have time to redress that. Please do.

OK, I just read a few reviews of that book. It i quite heavily criticised by atheists and theists. Here's one nice short synopisis:

"Collins proposes that God designed the universe with such precision that humans would be the end result. "

Oh dear. Collins is a 'puddle':

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.'" (Douglas Adams)

sigh I wouldn't go by these people because except fir the first three chapters, I found the book to be very logical, but whatever.
 
You've tailor made an excuse for a deity I'm afraid. Your created 'God' is 'just so' to avoid the questions you don't want to answer. You conveniently make claims that it's all 'beyond science' to try and avoid having to provide proof or answers. These are nothing more than claims, fantasies, and postulations. It's not even a logical theory. Thinking a deity is more likely to spontaneously erupt into being, than a simple quantum fluctuation just means your science knowledge is lacking. There is strong evidence and good theoretical support for the scientific view. You on the other hand have nothing more than convenient excuses.

There's that double standard again. Are hypotheses and theories not "tailor-made" to match the observations? Why would one's view of a deity be any different? It isn't an attempt to avoid anything; it's an attempt to understand what a deity would be. You speak as though the only definition for a deity that you would accept would be one that you can argue against. Here, presented with one that you can't, you simple call it an excuse. Your positions is absolutely ridiculous. Either argue the possibility of the God I have defined or don't. Don't cry unfair just because you don't have a position. As for your simple quantum fluctuations, that still requires there to have been SOMETHING (however dense and tiny) that erupted into the Big Bang. How did that something get there? Don't pretend that I don't understand my science to avoid the issue of infinite regress.


The bible is post Jesus, ... written a long time after he was dead, and then edited heavily, apocrypha removed, translations made after being kept secret in latin which many did not read apart from the Roman church. It was controlled, and has definitely been amended to unite Mithraism and Christianity. Why else do churches have crypts? Perhaps because they were built over Mithraic places of worship, which were underground?

The canonization of the Bible (2-3 hundred years after Christ) was a compilation of writings (some excluded, yes - and as I noted earlier I don't actually consider the NT to be divine) that were written as early as around 80 AD. However, that still establishes a "Biblical Christ" - an image of who he was as of around 300 AD. The injection of the myths you mention (including such things as Christmas and Easter) were AFTER 300 AD. Hell, if they weren't don't you think the people canonizing the Bible would have actually included those myths IN THE BIBLE?? Come on, you cannot be so obtuse as to not realize that myths created after the canonization of the Bible cannot be called part of the "Biblical Jesus". The history doesn't even matter on this one. It is simply a matter of language. If x is established at y, then everything post-y is not part of the original x.


You are holding that razor backwards. You introduce complexity when you start saying a God came first, then created the Universe. That is the antithesis of Occam's razor!

Not really. Insomuch as it applies to the supernatural realm, yes. But as far as the material universe goes, the idea that it magically came from nothing is far more complex than that it was simply created...

Hold on bub, this deity of yours supposedly created Adam and Eve who didn't obey him. He then got a bit annoyed with Sodom and destroyed it, and then of course, committed near complete genocide bar Noah et al. People do not follow God's will, so why would a Universe? You may argue people have free will. I would argue there is no free will if you ascribe a deity the attribute of omniscience, and of course, without that power, said deity cannot know his Universe is working perfectly as planned. Unless of course you are going to argue against random quantum events, and say your deity exactly understands each and every interaction that can occur, and set things in motion perfectly in the first instant, but then oh dear, free will comes in and mucks that up, if we decide the outcome of events. See, a simple logical discourse dissects your God and leaves it in pieces.

You don't get it. This is exhausting. Where to start... Ok, random quantum events are random to us, not God. He created the entire universe, start to finish, at once. This includes every action of every person, animal, etc. This includes every meteor from the sky, volcanic eruption, etc. It all unfolds for us in a predictable manner (more or less) because as we learn more and more things scientifically, we learn what causes these things - according the the natural laws created by God. There is no "setting things in motion" from God's perspective. He exists outside the time from which the very concept of things being in motion applies.

Here's your problem, other theists (take Lori7) reckon God speaks to her. The bible details God speaking to people. There is supposedly detailed 'secondary interjection' when God talks, and smites, and delivers commandments, and impregnates virgins. How can you reconcile these actions, against your claim that God hides behind nature? Unless of course you reject scripture entirely?

See above. God doesn't hide behind nature - God CREATED nature. Nature - and everything in this universe - behaves exactly the way it does because that's the way God created it. If people "hear" God ... whether it is some genetic anomaly, subconscious projection, or a brain tumor - that is ALL part of God's creation. The Bible uses terms like "God's Plan," "God's Will," etc. and they all reflect this simple, basic fact. God was done with creation when He created it. Everything WE experience is part of that creation, and it unfolds for us through this perception of time - but just because something is new to us doesn't mean God created the universe, start to finish, and then started muddling around with it. Hell, that doesn't even make sense. Back to the DVD analogy, how would I go about changing the events in my DVD? Any changes would result in a new DVD, and the characters and events in the old one still exist. Once that DVD is burned, that's it - THAT'S creation.
 
sigh I wouldn't go by these people because except fir the first three chapters, I found the book to be very logical, but whatever.

Yeah, but you get basic maths wrong, and let's face it, the whole premise of the book is utterly fallacious, so yeah, it may seem 'logical' to you I guess.
 
You know it's funny, even though this is the biggest thread I've ever made. The purpose I made it for is still not achieved. That is, to be convinced to be an atheist by other atheists but I guess you guys think that I'm so unreasonable that it's impossible to do so isn't that right?
 
There's that double standard again. Are hypotheses and theories not "tailor-made" to match the observations? Why would one's view of a deity be any different?

Scientific theories are created around evidence, gathered using repeatable experiments.

Your 'theory' is mere philosophy. You have no 'observations' just assertions.

It isn't an attempt to avoid anything; it's an attempt to understand what a deity would be.

But in doing so you assume one exists in the first place.

You speak as though the only definition for a deity that you would accept would be one that you can argue against.

I am arguing against the validity of the one you propose. You do not have an argument that cannot be argued against.

As for your simple quantum fluctuations, that still requires there to have been SOMETHING (however dense and tiny) that erupted into the Big Bang. No. Literally, two opposites can spontaneously appear out of nothing.

Not really. Insomuch as it applies to the supernatural realm, yes. But as far as the material universe goes, the idea that it magically came from nothing is far more complex than that it was simply created...

No, you added complexity by introducing God. That is the antithesis of Occam's Razor.


You don't get it. This is exhausting. Where to start... Ok, random quantum events are random to us, not God. He created the entire universe, start to finish, at once. This includes every action of every person, animal, etc. This includes every meteor from the sky, volcanic eruption, etc. It all unfolds for us in a predictable manner (more or less) because as we learn more and more things scientifically, we learn what causes these things - according the the natural laws created by God. There is no "setting things in motion" from God's perspective. He exists outside the time from which the very concept of things being in motion applies.

But here you deny the concept of free will effectively. Do you believe in free will? Supposedly, God gave us free will, ....
 
You know it's funny, even though this is the biggest thread I've ever made. The purpose I made it for is still not achieved. That is, to be convinced to be an atheist by other atheists but I guess you guys think that I'm so unreasonable that it's impossible to do so isn't that right?

You were born an atheist kid. Someone did a sell up job to make you change your mind. What did they tell you?

Not that it matters, it was bullshit either way.
 
Scientific theories are created around evidence, gathered using repeatable experiments.

Your 'theory' is mere philosophy. You have no 'observations' just assertions.

But even philosophy is subject to modifications based on new evidence.

But in doing so you assume one exists in the first place.

True. My faith comes first, and a deeper understanding comes second.

I am arguing against the validity of the one you propose. You do not have an argument that cannot be argued against.

OK; so what is invalid about my proposition? (To date, you haven't actually established anything invalid about it.)

No, you added complexity by introducing God. That is the antithesis of Occam's Razor.

That is kind of the point though. The added complexity IS the simpler answer.

But here you deny the concept of free will effectively. Do you believe in free will? Supposedly, God gave us free will, ....

I recognize free will as being the result of not knowing the future.
 
But even philosophy is subject to modifications based on new evidence.

But you have no evidence.


True. My faith comes first, and a deeper understanding comes second.

You are cherry picking things to support a predetermined goal. That's a little narrow.

OK; so what is invalid about my proposition? (To date, you haven't actually established anything invalid about it.)

What is wrong with it is that it's pure supposition constrained into perceived gaps in scientific understanding. It's a 'god of gaps' argument really, which is a tenuous position.


That is kind of the point though. The added complexity IS the simpler answer.

That's a contradiction.

I recognize free will as being the result of not knowing the future.

That's twisting the definition of free will, and like I already said, if you twist the meaning of generally accepted terms, we end up talking at cross purposes.

So you don't believe in true free will then?
 
But you have no evidence.

Now you're just being argumentative for the hell of it. What I am saying is that if we find for example that the planet Earth was the result of billions of years of accretion and planetary turmoil, that EVIDENCE should be incorporate into our views of a deity and Creation.

You are cherry picking things to support a predetermined goal. That's a little narrow.

No, I am adjusting my views as my knowledge increases. Isn't that what atheists are always complaining theists do? And now you are saying that I am wrong to do so? Make up your mind.

What is wrong with it is that it's pure supposition constrained into perceived gaps in scientific understanding. It's a 'god of gaps' argument really, which is a tenuous position.

That's not actually pointing out anything wrong with the supposition, but rather complaining about the approach. And yet, it is the same approach by which all other human knowledge is gained. You start with an idea, and refine it as your knowledge increases.

That's a contradiction.

Far from it. The simplest answer is not always the simplest process.

That's twisting the definition of free will, and like I already said, if you twist the meaning of generally accepted terms, we end up talking at cross purposes.

So you don't believe in true free will then?

First of all, generally accepted understandings are not always correct. Sometimes it takes a new idea or explanation to advance mankind. With that said, the very first statement on the subject at Wikipedia says "Free will is the concept that agents have the ability to make choices". By virtue of the fact that you don't know what your actions will be you have the ability to make a choice.

If YOU want to narrow the definition down to the idea that your actions are not predetermined, I'm going to have to point out that your position is scientifically unsound. Special relativity shows us that different objects travel through time at different speeds, and yet still experience a "now" with other objects at different points in time. In other words, while I may be at a point in time that is 14,365,987,132.8 years after the big bang, you might be at a point in time that is 14,365,987,132.9 years after the big bang, and yet we are both interacting with each other at the 'same time'. This discrepancy is seen every day in GPS satellites. They are in fact programmed with different clock speeds to account for this differential. With the great speeds and great distances that constitute our universe, the potential timeline overlaps can cross millions of years, which ultimately means there are some objects in space for which your future is already occurring in their "now". This forces the fact that each of our futures must already exist. As such, your actions have already been established, so the idea that you could somehow change those actions is ludicrous. It is no more possible to change the actions of your present or future than it is to change the actions of your past.
 
Please have a look at this Sago Palm. I was looking at this plant yesterday in the garden and was thinking: how much human effort does take to make an artificial plant of this sort ?! It is going surely to take a lot of thought and fine hand work. Just consider the fine work that is needed to place the leaves.

God's work breathes, gets refreshed by water and the sun, reproduce and above all praises Him.


There is no doubt in my mind that God does exist. So, atheists, the artificial one needs a lot of work and costs at least 200 UK Pounds (lifeless) while the growing one in the garden came into existence by nothing ?!

it's amusing how people only use the most benign examples or spin for god and ignore the rest.

how about how parasites ravage, cause misery and kill. evidently, they are god's creatures too.

i guess i shouldn't kill the fleas on my dog either. how terrible that would be, they need a home. lol

what this proves is, either god is a jerk or god doesn't exist. it would be better if god didn't exist, that way it can't be blamed for nasty nature. lol
 
it's amusing how people only use the most benign examples or spin for god and ignore the rest.

how about how parasites ravage, cause misery and kill. evidently, they are god's creatures too.

i guess i shouldn't kill the fleas on my dog either. how terrible that would be, they need a home. lol

what this proves is, either god is a jerk or god doesn't exist. it would be better if god didn't exist, that way it can't be blamed for nasty nature. lol

OR... That God finds all of it beautiful. Parasites are living creatures as well. They in turn contribute to the circle of life, and anyone who has seen The Lion King knows how beautiful that is. We have a tendency to place a specific value to comfortable living that is not reflected Biblically. Biblically speaking, life isn't meant to be all rainbows and butterflys. So those who would think it is a sadistic God that creates misery just don't see the greater beauty that such complexity adds to creation as a whole. IOW, humans need to get over themselves. They aren't that special, the universe doesn't care if they live or die, and as Christ himself taught - neither does God.
 
Now you're just being argumentative for the hell of it. What I am saying is that if we find for example that the planet Earth was the result of billions of years of accretion and planetary turmoil, that EVIDENCE should be incorporate into our views of a deity and Creation.

That just doesn't follow at all. You've decided there is a deity to attribute it to, without providing a logical reason to hold that belief.


No, I am adjusting my views as my knowledge increases. Isn't that what atheists are always complaining theists do? And now you are saying that I am wrong to do so? Make up your mind.

What actual 'knowledge' do you have?

That's not actually pointing out anything wrong with the supposition, but rather complaining about the approach. And yet, it is the same approach by which all other human knowledge is gained. You start with an idea, and refine it as your knowledge increases.

No, we start with an observation. An apple falls, why? It's not an idea, but an observed phenomenon.


Far from it. The simplest answer is not always the simplest process.

Give up, you have Occam's Razor wrong.

First of all, generally accepted understandings are not always correct. Sometimes it takes a new idea or explanation to advance mankind. With that said, the very first statement on the subject at Wikipedia says "Free will is the concept that agents have the ability to make choices". By virtue of the fact that you don't know what your actions will be you have the ability to make a choice.

Non sequitur. Free Will is the ability to make a choice. I can choose to throw a dart at a dartboard, but I don't know what my score will be. It does not hinge on the latter, so your point is a non sequitur.


If YOU want to narrow the definition down to the idea that your actions are not predetermined, I'm going to have to point out that your position is scientifically unsound. Special relativity ...

And quantum mechanics tells us some events are random. And your grasp of relativity isn't very sound.
 
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