Atheists: Most deserving of Heaven?

[Athelwulf]

Why live a moral life?

A religious answer to that is that that's how Sky-Daddy or -Mommy wants it, or that ya get yer own reserved little spot in that cloud up over there. An Atheistic answer would be that it's just a good thing to do.

Why do religious people life a moral life? I'm sure they give many reasons, but I'll bet their only real reason is that they want to be in their religion's version of Heaven for all eternity. Some probably don't care about being good just for the hell of it. They just know that that's how to get into Heaven. They're taking advantage of a bribe.

So why do Atheists live a moral life? They have no incentive to do so; they believe that they're just gonna rot in the ground when they're dead, and that that's the end of it. They have no Sky-Daddy or -Mommy to please, and no Heaven to spend eternity in. But they live a moral life because they believe it's just a good thing to do. They're living moral lives just for the hell of it. They have no need for bribery.

So it seems that the religious, even if they think they're living a moral life only because it's nice, are being selfish in that they just want a spot in that cloud up over there. Atheists, on the other hand, don't think they're gonna be rewarded for their morality for eternity after they're dead, but it doesn't matter to them. They still are gonna live a moral life.

It seems that the selfish people in this equation — the religious — will in fact lose their spot in Heaven, while the true humanitarians — the Atheists — will take their spot.

Hallelujah!

— Peace, Love, Health, and Happiness to all! Âðelwulf.

 

[marv]

Some people need bribery.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Athelwulf: Why live a moral life?
*************
M*W: Humanity has been positive creation in this world, and I believe we are basically good people.

 

[Athelwulf]

Some people need bribery.

Good point.

 

[Yorda]

Humans live a moral life because it would feel bad if they wouldn't do so. God lives in them. Those who do good only in hope of a reward or in a fear of punishment are no good at all, and they don't believe or follow God. Whatever we do, we do it for our self. In all that we love, we love our self, and when we love our self, we love everything. Because what we think we do not love is only that which we haven't found in our self.

Do not be proud of being wise. Consult with the ignorant as with the wise. The limits of art have not been attained, there is no artist fully equipped with his excellence. Perfect speech is concealed, more than turqoise; yet it is found among the maids at millstones.

 

[Athelwulf]

Humans live a moral life because it would feel bad if they wouldn't do so.

That's not entirely true.

 

[Leo Volont]

So why do Atheists live a moral life? .

But they don't.

Look at History. The uncivilized and un-Religious Barbarians have been guilty of the most montrous crimes which pale anything that Religious Institutions ever perpetrated. Then we have the crimes of the Self-Conscious Atheists that source out of the Thinking of the French Age of Enlightenment, whose Doctrines you now echo. They brought us Predatory Capitalism, the Slave Trade, Democratic Revolutions, Socialist Revolutions, Communist Revolutions, Fascism and will bring us Militia Anarchy and Race War.

Arnold Toynbee acknowledges that there is still some Moral Sensitivity within the Stricken and Dying Western Civilization, once known as Christendom, but that it is not a Moral Sense built upon anything but the Moral Inertia of Past Catholic Traditions. If Atheists have any morality, it is only a Morality of built up Momentum... almost a Genetic Memory from generations past who WERE Catholic. But with each subsequent generation its forward impetus is diminished and any and all Moral Inhabitions take on the appearance of vain superstitions. Thus the ostensively Religious Right can advance Greed as a Virtue they had just recently discovered. They have lost their Moral Bearings awash, as they are, in a popular culture that has no reference beyond an amoral Secular Atheism.

 

[mustafhakofi]

But they don't.

Look at History. The uncivilized and un-Religious Barbarians have been guilty of the most montrous crimes which pale anything that Religious Institutions ever perpetrated.

try to show us one war, caused by atheists!, we'll show you tens of thousands, done by religion, it's only when man started to get educated the he started to turn away, from a believe in fantasy figures and idols, and the majority of that education has been in the last three centurys.
atheist are still unfortunately only a small percentage of the people on this planet, therefore unfortunately, can have little or no effect on the world, if in the future more people come to there senses and we can change things, it may be the end of war and killing forever.
so what a complete crock of shit, leo. are you in cloud cuckoo land again, hulcinating again.
you've already been shown you were wrong on this count at the begining of last year.


athelwulf: well said,good post.

 

[Athelwulf]

So why do Atheists live a moral life?

But they don't.

I do.

Well, I try, at least.

The uncivilized and un-Religious Barbarians have been guilty of the most montrous crimes which pale anything that Religious Institutions ever perpetrated.

Such as . . . ?

And what have the civilized unreligious been guilty of?

athelwulf: well said,good post.

Thank you.

 

[Aborted_Fetus]

Look at History. The uncivilized and un-Religious Barbarians have been guilty of the most montrous crimes which pale anything that Religious Institutions ever perpetrated.

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” - Adolf Hitler
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” - Adolf Hitler, from Mein Kampf

Six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. SIX MILLION people murdered by a Catholic because they were Jewish.

Jesus himself was killed by the Jews for opposing religious beliefs. And by crucifixtion, perhaps by one of the most barbaric forms of execution.

Take a look at the Middle East. It seems like every day we hear that another suicide bomber has taken another dozen lives. Are ANY of these suicide bombers atheist? I don't think so.

Richard Butler, who died last year, was the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ Christian, also known as the Aryan Nation. The Aryan Nation promotes white supremacy and racial bigotry, and has been responsible for coutless acts of brutal crimes against blacks and other minorities. All this, of course, while preaching the good word of the Lord.

I think I have made my point. Can you even name one valid occourance perpetrated by atheists that even comes close to any of the above?

 

[duendy]

I do.

Well, I try, at least.



Such as . . . ?

And what have the civilized unreligious been guilty of?



Thank you.

I thank you for puttin Leo straight about the 'blessed' religionists. BUT.....i have to contradict youe somewhat smug view that the sun shines outta athiest arsehole

for example, mecahanistic science has probably caused more damage than any other 'movement' known to man..........why?

because it has no regard for life, for Nature, for other species.
why? cause it sees Nature as 'dead'
why?
cause it through out the ALREADY pseudo idea of 'God'

However, what it fails to know is that all of that mythic condisioning STILl unconsciously influences its mode of operation. for example, the religious desire to return to 'heaven' is prelaced by the modern techno drive to escape t the stars.....the religious idea of 'everlasting life' is replaced by techno means to prolong life, and thus escape death....etc

 

[Athelwulf]

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” - Adolf Hitler
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” - Adolf Hitler, from Mein Kampf

Six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. SIX MILLION people murdered by a Catholic because they were Jewish.

Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition. And look at this site!

 

[the preacher]

for example, mecahanistic 'movement'

when the industrial revolution happened atheism was still in it's infancy, and man did not understand just what machines would do to the environment, but now we are more educated there are more atheist, so there is now a force around, to try reduce the mechanisation of the planet to try to repair what we have damaged, but you cant just blame atheist for that, you have to blame everybody.

 

[duendy]

when the industrial revolution happened atheism was still in it's infancy, and man did not understand just what machines would do to the environment, but now we are more educated there are more atheist, so there is now a force around, to try reduce the mechanisation of the planet to try to repair what we have damaged, but you cant just blame atheist for that, you have to blame everybody.

i see it as a patriarchal lineage. i see what came before the materialistic scientific worldview was ALSO mechanistic. ie., the there existed 'mechanical nature' and a supernatrual order--hence the idea of miracles. the 'supeernatural' affecting the 'mechanical nature'

i FEAr this 'putting right' of what's been unprecendtly already done by scientists who are still stuck in materilistic ways of understanding Nature. usually he 'putting right' does yet MORe incalcuable damage, and there is also much exploitation and corruption underlying the MOTIVEs to 'put right'. a really good examle is the biotech means to 'put right'
'3rd world' poverty by pushing GM....!

 

[Silas]

I thank you for puttin Leo straight about the 'blessed' religionists. BUT.....i have to contradict youe somewhat smug view that the sun shines outta athiest arsehole

for example, mecahanistic science has probably caused more damage than any other 'movement' known to man..........why?

because it has no regard for life, for Nature, for other species.
why? cause it sees Nature as 'dead'
why?
cause it through out the ALREADY pseudo idea of 'God'

Mechanistic science has indeed caused more damage than any other movement known to man. But your explanations are simplistic and unconvincing, not to mention anthropomorphic. Mechanistic science proceeds on the basis of attempting to alleviate the lot of ordinary people, to make things easier, to be the tool of humankind. The implementation of technology turned out to be so massively useful that there was a huge explosion in the distribution of this technology and it's not really surprising that the downside of the uncontrolled spread of technology was not really understood at the time.

And how do we know that technology is harmful to the earth? Amazingly enough not by getting on our knees and "communing with Mother Nature" or anything like it. We know about the harmful effects of scientific advance by science. It is science that told us about the hole in the ozone layer, science that told us why that would be a problem. It is science that showed us that Venus is in fact the surprise hottest planet in the solar system, that this is due to a runaway greenhouse effect, and that the same thing could well happen on Earth. No amount of visiting Stonehenge on the equinox dressed in white linen gave anybody the requisite information about the damage we do to our planet.

Science has pointed the way to the solution. The only thing that stops us healing the earth is politics. And the fact that I'm not willing to give my car up.

 

[Karmashock]

To Jews, heaven is 'closeness to god'... those who don't believe in god don't get to be near him in the after life...

To Christians, heaven is the kingdom of God... its sort of like citizenship... if you're not a Christian, then you're not getting in.

Entry into the Christian heaven depends on the sect you belong to. Each has its own rules.

Some say that all you have to do is be sorry for you sins at the end of your life and take Jesus into your soul. Others make it very hard to get in... It depends.



Atheists will not get a place in any heaven. They get oblivion. Whether there is a God(s) or not... none of them will give the Atheists anything.

I don't say that to be derisive to atheists, you're welcome to your belief system. But you're certainly not going to get a spot in paradise for defaming God.

at least... not by my earthly logic, which has no real way of knowing the reasoning of a deity.

 

[Silas]

Atheists will not get a place in any heaven. They get oblivion. Whether there is a God(s) or not... none of them will give the Atheists anything.

I don't say that to be derisive to atheists, you're welcome to your belief system. But you're certainly not going to get a spot in paradise for defaming God.

Well, duh! We don't believe in paradise, we believe that eternal oblivion is the common lot of all. Some of us shy away from the concept of eternal life in heaven with revulsion. And if there is a God, I would hope that he would at least give me my due as an honest atheist who defended his beliefs no matter how much they may have diverted from His.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Karmashock: To Jews, heaven is 'closeness to god'... those who don't believe in god don't get to be near him in the after life...

To Christians, heaven is the kingdom of God... its sort of like citizenship... if you're not a Christian, then you're not getting in.

Entry into the Christian heaven depends on the sect you belong to. Each has its own rules.

Some say that all you have to do is be sorry for you sins at the end of your life and take Jesus into your soul. Others make it very hard to get in... It depends.

Atheists will not get a place in any heaven. They get oblivion. Whether there is a God(s) or not... none of them will give the Atheists anything.

I don't say that to be derisive to atheists, you're welcome to your belief system. But you're certainly not going to get a spot in paradise for defaming God.

at least... not by my earthly logic, which has no real way of knowing the reasoning of a deity.
*************
M*W: Please provide proof of an "afterlife." And, while you're at it, provide proof of a "Christian heaven."

Atheists don't want or need a heaven. Life is all we've got. Atheists are probably more genuine and live more honest lives than Christians. We don't seek forgiveness, at least not from some dying demigod savior of myth. We try to live right in the first place.

Can you prove Jesus even existed? As a former Christian, I'm still trying to find out.

You've indicated that there is more than one heaven -- one for Christians and one for each and every sect. Right there it proves to me that there couldn't possibly be anything such as a heaven.

I seriously doubt that you will be getting into anything called "heaven."

 

[Karmashock]

And if there is a God, I would hope that he would at least give me my due as an honest atheist who defended his beliefs no matter how much they may have diverted from His.

It's my understanding that you'll get exactly what you want.

Oblivion.

The people that believe in god know that what they profess sounds stupid. They're not idiots... no they're really not. They have faith.

I don't expect you to convert or even respect that... it would be nice however if you understood it.

It's like a dream taken to the point where it becomes reality. Either way, there is a beauty to it unmatched nihilism.
====================

M*W: Please provide proof of an "afterlife." And, while you're at it, provide proof of a "Christian heaven."

You’re missing the point. This is faith. If anything, proof would destroy it… even if I could show you absolute bulletproof evidence of god and heaven, it would ruin it.

The point is that you’re not supposed to know. You’re supposed to believe.

Though if you want to get snarky, prove that you love your parents. Provide absolute proof. How do we know it isn’t an act? How do we know your love isn’t just self-interest? A product of greed and fear?

These are deep deep waters you’re treading in… to treat them to so lightly is to miss their inherent complexity.

Atheists are probably more genuine and live more honest lives than Christians.

I disagree. There is nothing dishonest about believing in God. It is a belief. They aren’t lying or cheating. They’ve chosen to believe in something. That is their choice.

As to atheists, many atheists convert back to religion when they get old or prey to god when they’re dying. If you’d like I can cite a very recent and MAJOR atheist figure that converted back to Christianity recently.

Atheists can claim to be more realistic perhaps… but not honest.

We don't seek forgiveness, at least not from some dying demigod savior of myth. We try to live right in the first place.

Actually, you have no moral code what so ever. Good and evil are meaningless and so is morality. There is no absolute right or wrong. Who is to say that child rape is wrong? Why is wrong? Upon what moral authority do you base that on?


Don’t you see? Your atheist morality is derivative of Christian morality.

Can you prove Jesus even existed? As a former Christian, I'm still trying to find out.

He’s in the Roman records as a troublemaker.

You've indicated that there is more than one heaven -- one for Christians and one for each and every sect. Right there it proves to me that there couldn't possibly be anything such as a heaven.

No, I was just being diplomatic. Most do not recognize the existence of anything but one heaven. However, there are many different sects so they must all use different doors to get into the same place, some of the rules are wrong, or some of the heavens don’t exist.

Or multiple ones exist.

I don’t pretend to know anything… Which is the truly honest thing to say.

I seriously doubt that you will be getting into anything called "heaven."

My one in a trillion chance is better then your chance of zero.

The thing you have to realize about a supreme being is that it can bend reality around its finger like a strand of hair. God can make 1+7 = 23.1 And this will become fact. God can do literally anything, in any order, reverse time, and then do it again. There is no limit. Within such a system no data can be absolute because the nature of the universe is in question.

Science can’t disprove God and only a foolish religious person would try to prove their religion with science.

One is physical and the other is metaphysical. They deal with completely different realms.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Karmashock: It's my understanding that you'll get exactly what you want. Oblivion.

The people that believe in god know that what they profess sounds stupid. They're not idiots... no they're really not. They have faith.

I don't expect you to convert or even respect that... it would be nice however if you understood it.

It's like a dream taken to the point where it becomes reality. Either way, there is a beauty to it unmatched nihilism.
====================

You’re missing the point. This is faith. If anything, proof would destroy it… even if I could show you absolute bulletproof evidence of god and heaven, it would ruin it.

The point is that you’re not supposed to know. You’re supposed to believe.

Though if you want to get snarky, prove that you love your parents. Provide absolute proof. How do we know it isn’t an act? How do we know your love isn’t just self-interest? A product of greed and fear?

These are deep deep waters you’re treading in… to treat them to so lightly is to miss their inherent complexity.

I disagree. There is nothing dishonest about believing in God. It is a belief. They aren’t lying or cheating. They’ve chosen to believe in something. That is their choice.

As to atheists, many atheists convert back to religion when they get old or prey to god when they’re dying. If you’d like I can cite a very recent and MAJOR atheist figure that converted back to Christianity recently.

Atheists can claim to be more realistic perhaps… but not honest.

Actually, you have no moral code what so ever. Good and evil are meaningless and so is morality. There is no absolute right or wrong. Who is to say that child rape is wrong? Why is wrong? Upon what moral authority do you base that on?

Don’t you see? Your atheist morality is derivative of Christian morality.

He’s in the Roman records as a troublemaker.

No, I was just being diplomatic. Most do not recognize the existence of anything but one heaven. However, there are many different sects so they must all use different doors to get into the same place, some of the rules are wrong, or some of the heavens don’t exist.

Or multiple ones exist.

I don’t pretend to know anything… Which is the truly honest thing to say.

My one in a trillion chance is better then your chance of zero.

The thing you have to realize about a supreme being is that it can bend reality around its finger like a strand of hair. God can make 1+7 = 23.1 And this will become fact. God can do literally anything, in any order, reverse time, and then do it again. There is no limit. Within such a system no data can be absolute because the nature of the universe is in question.

Science can’t disprove God and only a foolish religious person would try to prove their religion with science.

One is physical and the other is metaphysical. They deal with completely different realms.
*************
M*W: Science will disprove God. Whatcha gonna do then?