atheists don't have the right to be atheists.

In this case, since we don't know how exactly it all started or what started it all, then you can't claim to know how, we may one day have that knowledge and with it the proof.

Again, you're conflating knowledge with proof. People can, and do, know things which haven't been proven, can't be proven, and even have already been disproven.

Good luck proving something doesn't exist.

I don't need to prove that something doesn't exist in order to know it doesn't exist.

Not that I personally claim such knowledge, but the distinction between knowledge and proof remains.

And, by the way, if you really do wish to stick with this Platonic definition of knowledge, you should be aware that the relevant qualifer is not "proof" but "justification." It's not possible to "prove" anything in the sense you're using here; it's not generally possible to "prove" anything outside the context of some set of (assumed) axioms which, from an epistimilogical point of view, begs the question...

Furthermore, if what you have in mind is the specific subset "scientific knowledge," then one wonders what relevance you imagine such a category to have to entities that are, by definition, supernatural.
 
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Again, you're conflating knowledge with proof. People can, and do, know things which haven't been proven, can't be proven, and even have already been disproven.

Are you serious? Are you really serious?


I don't need to prove that something doesn't exist in order to know it doesn't exist.

Where can this be found in the scientific method?



And, by the way, if you really do wish to stick with this Platonic definition of knowledge, you should be aware that the relevant qualifer is not "proof" but "justification." It's not possible to "prove" anything in the sense you're using here; it's not generally possible to "prove" anything outside the context of some set of (assumed) axioms which, from an epistimilogical point of view, begs the question...

What is your method for justification of supernatural beings?

Furthermore, if what you have in mind is the specific subset "scientific knowledge," then one wonders what relevance you imagine such a category to have to entities that are, by definition, supernatural.

What does this even mean? :confused:
 
Nothing is supernatural, just undefined. That word defies itself. Its an oxymoron. If something is supernatural then it doesn't exist. And god, and a spiritual realm indeed exist.
 
Spirit realms, Heaven, Hell, etc. does not just sit in space without a good deal of thought put into it. Just look at earth, science, and religion. :)
 
they should all be agnostic, because they can't prove god's nonexistence.

deal?
No deal for sure .
Life is so complex and everyone understands it according to his or her abilities .
Can you ever answer how something starting from nothing (( GOD ))
can create anything at all ; let alone all this huge universe and beyond ???.
 
Are you serious? Are you really serious?

Yeah, sure. Knowledge and proof are very different things. That's why we have distinct words for them.

We know that the sky is blue. But we can't prove that the sky (or anything else) even has an objective existence in the first place, let alone a specific color. See also solipsism.

Where can this be found in the scientific method?

What does that have to do with knowledge about the supernatural? The scientific method only applies to nature. We're talking about entities that, by definition, are outside the scope of the scientific method.

What is your method for justification of supernatural beings?

I haven't one. I don't believe in/know of/whatever any supernatural beings. But I do know that asking for proof before accepting that someone has knowledge is silly: various believers have claimed to have direct knowledge of supernatural entities, for example. Which is to say that their knowledge that God exists is not the outcome of some "proof" - not implied by axioms and data - but rather rests on their own professed direct experience of God's presence.

What does this even mean? :confused:

See above. The scientific method is for investigated natural phenomena. Phenomena/entities that are defined to be supernatural, then, necessarily lie outside the relevance of the scientific method.
 
Yeah, sure. Knowledge and proof are very different things. That's why we have distinct words for them.

We know that the sky is blue. But we can't prove that the sky (or anything else) even has an objective existence in the first place, let alone a specific color. See also solipsism.

Problems. Problems. There's problems with your logic and your knowledge. You're saying that scientists have no idea why the sky is blue and that the sky may or may not exist? :spank:

Solipsism, I've wiki'd it. I understand now. You're a misguided philosopher. EOC. :D
 
Some speculation has been seen recently here on the word ATHEIST and its definition. As a newcomer, I hardly carry the authority of a regular and prolific contributor to debate in this forum. I have, however, had a deep, uninterrupted involvement in discussion groups on MSN since 1995.
******************** Firstly, let me establish, as a legitimate basis of argument, that "Proof" is reserved for such pursuits as LOGIC and MATHEMATICS. Science is concerned with observation, experimentation, interpretation and prediction. Science deals in preponderance of probability and has no concern with ultimate, ineffable, implacable, immutable TRUTH. For science, by definition, there is no such thing. All knowledge is subject to change, rejection or modification by newly arrived knowledge.
So proving there is no god is a futile exercise by reason, rational thinking and logic. No one can prove there are no invisible aardvarks, yet the probability of their existence is on a par with that of gods existing. The preoccupation with the conundrum of whether gods exist is the result of persistent and fairly clever marketing strategies. The marketing of invisible aardvarks has suffered a serious lack of attention, but were they to be resourced as munificently as gods have been, then the faithful could easily be convinced, over 2000 years of exposure, that IAs could indeed be responsible for all creation. The idea is no less logical but, sadly, no more amenable of "proof" as any other fantasy.
Secondly, may I introduce a view that I have quietly propounded for several years now that I name PRIMISM. One who is convinced and convicted of this view is a PRIME.
Primism is based upon the legitimate premise that all gods, ghosts, demons, spirits etc appeared as*the desperate resort of a primitive but burgeoning imagination in a primate like Homo sapiens perhaps a million years ago. Primism is a form of atheism that eschews the negativity inherent in the word ATHEIST, where an A is tacked on to the front of THEIST. Such negativity led to claims that without theism atheists could not exist. I sought a positive and practical solution and found it in turning atheism into a doctrine of its own with no implied dependence on the quandary of a god's existence
******************** The Universe was a pristine example of pure chaos evolving to cosmos that we perceive*according to the laws of physics with no supernaturality about it, within it or supporting it. There was nothing but matter/energy, the space it occupied and the physical laws that they*abided by. This was the original and prime condition of the Universe.
******************** This view is simplicity itself and therefore bears the imprimatur of William of Ockham. Religious belief in gods, creationism, etc is barred from such a claim. This view is subject to scientific falsification or verification, whereas religious belief is not.
******************** Humankind has not outgrown its primitive superstitions. In the deep recesses of our brain are instincts and dark things of which*we are*quite unaware and which rarely surface over our more conscious self. Religious belief is the expression and recognition*of fear of the unexplainable. That fear was exploited by a low pecking order opportunist who rose rapidly to the heights of that order.
******************** Humankind is not as far removed from its origins and genesis as we would like to think. We have some distance to travel before we can shuck off the yoke of religious adherence. If our genetic diversity is sufficient to the task we have an untold number of years to become those gods that we dream of and yearn after*today.
Although our Sun may burn out inside 5 bn years, humankind may be fortunate enough to observe this event from a much safer vantage point. Speculating a longer life for humankind enters a seemingly fantasy world of superhuman artificial intelligence and our ability to reverse the processes that inevitably lead to the death of our Universe. This is very well covered in Paul Davies' GOD AND THE NEW PHYSICS ch.15. It's depressing but not hopelessly pessimistic.
******************** Religion as a human phenomenon will have an age assigned to it in human history but there will be little of significance to mark it. IMHO, the age will be judged as having contributed little or nothing to the advancement of humankind and contributed much to the hindrance of that advance.
******************** From thence forward all civilisation will be atheistic or PRIME. Providing we survive the primitive superstitious fears we inherited, we will*continue into the original and prime condition of the Universe having survived a great evolutionary test of our worth to endure.
* The future before us is an exciting one but fraught with difficulties and danger. Relying on superstition and the supernatural for guidance, tearfully beseeching help from a figment of our primitive imaginations, will certainly ensure that we are not fit to endure. The next steps in our greatest adventure must be accomplished only with the resources of intellects working rationally and logically and the strong bond of fellowship united in a purpose that will be the greatest we will ever face.

Biggles, Prime********************
 
“Originally Posted by StrangerInAStrangeLa
For the trillionth time, the atheist position is "I don't know". Some atheists often say this. Some atheists say they do know until they're pinned down. Either way, an atheist is simply someone who does not believe in gods, regardless of whether they say "I don't know". I know an atheist who believes in reincarnation & 1 who believes Earth has been visited by aliens. An atheist may believe or not believe anything except they lack belief in any god(s).
No agenda is required to be an atheist & is often not there.
Scifes, as usual, has no point. ”



You're wrong. I'm an atheist, and I know God does not exist. Sure, some atheists may really be agnostic atheists, but you can still firmly believe God does not exist and be atheist.


You're ridiculously wrong.
I didn't say an atheist can't claim to know there are no gods.
 
You're saying that scientists have no idea why the sky is blue and that the sky may or may not exist?

No, I'm saying there's no "proof" of any of their knowledge on those topics, in the sense of "proving" that God exists (or doesn't).

Solipsism, I've wiki'd it. I understand now. You're a misguided philosopher.

I'm neither a philosopher, misguided, nor a solipsist.
 
Primism is based upon the legitimate premise that all gods, ghosts, demons, spirits etc appeared as*the desperate resort of a primitive but burgeoning imagination in a primate like Homo sapiens perhaps a million years ago. Primism is a form of atheism that eschews the negativity inherent in the word ATHEIST, where an A is tacked on to the front of THEIST. Such negativity led to claims that without theism atheists could not exist. I sought a positive and practical solution and found it in turning atheism into a doctrine of its own with no implied dependence on the quandary of a god's existence

Biggles, Prime********************


There is no inherent negativity to eschew.
Without theism, everyone would be atheist.
The quandary is with theists.
An atheist by any name will be viewed & treated negatively by foolish theists.
 
Well, atleast according to traditional (greek) definitions (aka, the origin of the terms "athiest" and "agnostic"):

An Athiest is someone who BELIEVES GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

An Agnostic is someone who believes it is fundamentally impossible to know if God exists or not.


So, being an Athiest is not contradictory. But it's a faith call just the same as religion is a faith call. Seeing as it's impossible to prove God doesn't exist.


Now, if we want to say modern athiesm is different and has changed viewpoints to "I don't know," be my guest. But atleast according to the traditional definitions laid down by the people WHO CREATED THE TERM, athiesm says nothing about the certainty of the belief. It merely states the belief.
 
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