atheists don't have the right to be atheists.

[spidergoat]

??then why was the concept of god invented? why did it ever exist?

Lack of science and other sound sociological reasons. Religion can serve a practical purpose even if it doesn't represent a true picture of reality.

now, regardless of how big the possibility is (if it can be called a possibility)..the need for god is something out of question..even for you atheists.

No it isn't. There used to be a need for God as an explanation of extraordinary fact, but science has come up with better answers.

not if he sent a book saying "i created you all to worship me" ..which he did, which you ignored, then sat around in circles brainstorming the point out of life.

No, some people wrote a book, claiming that God inspired them. Anyone can write such a book. A myth is not any kind of proof.

but, if you had the patience to sit through an extremely long lecture that includes a lengthy segment on Quran miracles, I could give you ample reason to believe that you are very stupid to believe that you don't have a "god."

Few people have the patience to listen to that tortured logic.

You say there have beem regimes under theist rule and doctrine, in the form of religion (i'm assuming you are aware of the meaning of religion & theism).
By this logic, Stalin, Pol Pot, and other similar regimes were under atheist rule and doctrine.

Incorrect, those were political philosophies, and only incidentally atheist in nature.

Then by the same token not every theist is religious, and theism is not responsible for religious attrocities anymore than atheism is responsible for
the atrocities of Stalin, and other atheists who act in this way.

That is also false, since religious doctrines were explicit in dictating certain violent actions.

Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, 9-11/7-7 (if you believe the official version), were all about politics, not theism, or even religion for that matter.

So you are willing to rationalize these events as political, but not communism? That's pretty dishonest.

They acted from their authority, the Pope, not out of belief in God.

Belief in the supernatural is what gave credibility to the notion that the Pope was an emissary for God.

The atheists who murdered and tortured amongst others, people
of faith, did they act out of atheism, or did they follow the orders of their leader?

Followed their leader. Atheism contains no dogma.

And I specifically mentioned athiest ideologies with regimes, so you can't cop out of that one.
Stalin was an atheist, as was Pol Pot, which became clear when they murdered and tortured the religious in an attempt to wipe out religion.

Stalin was alot of things, but his actions did not derive from atheism. In fact, the USSR managed to control the people with the help of the Russian Orthodox Church.

After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church[30] to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius, Alexy and Nikolay had a meeting with Stalin and received a permission to convene a council on September 8, 1943, which elected Sergius Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. This is considered by some violation of the XXX Apostolic canon, as no church hierarch could be consecrated by secular authorities.[26] A new patriarch was elected, theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. The Moscow Theological Academy Seminary, which had been closed since 1918, was re-opened.​

A position that is at the heart of modern atheism.
Now, I'm not saying every individual atheist would stoop to such vile acts, but nevertheless such vile acts have been committed by powerful atheists.
People who were in a position to impose their perverted ideals on whole nations.

Sure atheist can be evil, but they aren't evil because of atheism. There is correlation but not causation. This is in contrast to religious regimes, where the specific tenets of the religion led to atrocities.

If wiping out religion, an atheist pursuit if Dawking in anything to
go by, inspires people to do evil in its name, then atheism is reponsible.

No it's not, atheism only states that there is no God. Not that religious people are evil.

 

[Jan Ardena]

phlogistician,

'the faithful', that's a loaded term. Care to try and debate honestly?

Replace "faithful" with religious if you like, it doesn't change anything.

Dawkins makes rational arguments as to why religion, and belief in God is flawed. If he's trying to wipe out religion, it's by using reason. I can't see anything 'evil' in that.

I think it is a matter of oppinion as to whether he makes rational arguments, but my point was, he is trying to wipe out religion and belief in God, meaning
this is an atheist pursuit.
Stalin, and others tried the same thing, albeit with a different method.

If a bunch of CATHOLICS turn up, accuse people of HERESY according to the CATHOLIC DOCTRINE, and start torturing them, then yes, it's pretty obvious to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse their world view is a factor.

If their worldview is catholosim, then yes, i would agree, just as if an atheists
world view was the type of communism practiced by Stalin and co.
But in the same way that YOU cannot put atheism and that type of communism together, I cannot put theism and the crusades together.
How do YOU bridge that gap, while maintaining innocence of atheistic ideals on the part of atrocities commited by atheists?

And no, it doesn't follow, atheism and politics are as linked as people not being stamp collectors and politics are. Why can't you grasp this?

Because you're not making clear what you mean.

jan.

 

[jpappl]

well...lol. what do you call it when what most people including myself would call it a bevy of coincedences that come together to provide meaning and accomplishment?

how about spatial manipulation in the absence of time? lol. i just made that shit up right thar.

when this happened to me (the xtra-weird stuff), it was like all of a sudden, after 37 years, everything that had transpired in my entire life made sense. and that was strange.

if something keeps being presented to you in your environment (like say, a record), and you become attracted to it.

you listen to it, and you are drawn in, with alarm. you get the impression that the artist in is some serious shit and needs help. the serious shit just happens to relate to spiritual matters that you've been given revelation about previously.

you hear a voice in your head say, "write him a letter".

you think that's a ridiculous notion and request. so you don't do it while you investigate this guy and his apparent problem, finding nothing in confirmation.

while investigating, you hear that he is physically ill.

you hear a voice in your head say, "send him flowers".

an even more ridiculous request...seemingly impossible. how do you send a rock star flowers? i didn't know.

driving to work one day you hear, "hobby lobby has silk flowers".

ah ha! the band has a po box! eureka! problem solved, you're off the hook.

so you sit down to write, "get well soon!", and seven paragraphs of the most beautiful poetry you've ever heard comes out of you, and YOU DON'T WRITE POETRY. you're a frickin' accountant who has always been completely confounded by poetry or anything creative or imaginative for that matter and have never done such a thing in your life. you are well aware that something just moved through you. so exciting!

it's a miracle! it's a miracle!

you're then given another message that is so profoundly bizarre and not understood, that it almost scares you, "_____ _____ (the artist) is joey spagota." joey spagota being your childhood imaginary friend when you were oh, about 2-3 years old, that you only even remember because your parents still bring it up occasionally at the dinner table to embarrass you.

freaks you out...not understood, or comprehendable. you say, "he wasn't even born then". which if you think about it, is a dumb question/statement. the answer you receive is, "there is no time here". which makes even less sense to me.

so you try to put all that out of your mind, but you keep thinking about joey.

your thoughts, about real events in your childhood, albeit with an imaginary friend, build an outline, that turns into a transcendental writing, during which you see actual physical manifestations of a spirit inhabiting your body (or at least that's the only thing i could logically come up with to explain what i felt, saw, and was doing).

in the middle of the writing, the voice..."stop writing, go get your bible, and read the book of revelations".

ok.

about half-way through, when you get to the story about the woman and the dragon, you are aware of a presence via a physical sensation. somehow you know that there are two beings standing in front of you. the physical sensation lasts for about 3 minutes. you then receive revelations prophecy like a whirlwind through your mind.

more spiritual interactions ensue (these being with live people mind you, that are projecting themselves on an astral plane). as there's no other explanation that i'm aware of that would explain what they're doing.

shit morphs around on your coffee table one afternoon. (stationery actually)

and a bevy of "coincedences" proceed to happen in your environment that just happen to explain in part, what the fuck is going on.

including an assload of song lyrics from many bands, that substantiate exactly what i was going through. even entertaining depictions in the form of music videos.

...movies, literature, conversations with innocent people that don't know what the fuck is going on with you.

now you look at the man, that you were supposed to help, and he is better. the change in him is like night to day.

and you are better too having gone through this experience. stronger, more capable, no fear...peace.

you explain it.

You do realize we have discussed this all before, correct ?

 

[jpappl]

Scifes

Originally Posted by scifes
??then why was the concept of god invented? why did it ever exist?

Because people came to the realization that they would one day cease to exist and it was very difficult ot accept. They watched loved ones perish and they had to try to assign a greater meaning to it and give their lives purpose.

It makes more sense that people would create an after life.

Since they had no knowledge of how anything worked, why it rained, lightning etc etc they easily attributed it to a supreme being in the sky.

Every ancient society created some form of higher power or powers. It's universal, not because there is or are, but because all people are afraid of dying. Think about it.

 

[Lori_7]

You do realize we have discussed this all before, correct ?

well people keep asking me the same questions over and over...

i assume they're not "getting it". lol

 

[Jan Ardena]

spidergoat,

Incorrect, those were political philosophies, and only incidentally atheist in nature.

Then where does Enver Hoxha fit in.
He was an atheist, a devout Stalinist, Marxist. His policies were brutish like his mentors, and is believed to have murdered thousands, possibly tens of thousands of people. He focused on atheism as the school curriculum, encouraging communist students and workers to use forceful tactics to promote atheism. He closed thousands of religious institutes in his country, Albania, in which state atheism became the national policy.

So you are willing to rationalize these events as political, but not communism? That's pretty dishonest.

I'm willing to see it for what it is.
I don't conclude that every atheist is a potential Stalin, because they
are atheist. Yet I get the distinct impression that you and others lump theists
in the same bracket as religious fundamentalists.

Belief in the supernatural is what gave credibility to the notion that the Pope was an emissary for God.

Not necessarily.
I'm quite surprised you would conclude like that.

Followed their leader. Atheism contains no dogma.

So how would you define "state atheism"?

Stalin was alot of things, but his actions did not derive from atheism.

How can you say that with such confidence, with only the same information
as everyone else to make a conclusion.
Did you know him personally, or know anyone that knew him personally?
How do you explain the policies and actions of Enver Hoxha a devotee of
Stalin?

Sure atheist can be evil, but they aren't evil because of atheism.

How do you know?

This is in contrast to religious regimes, where the specific tenets of the religion led to atrocities.

I'm not really discussing religion, because there is no common point.
Theism, and atheism, are definitions that are clear and irrefutable from a basic stand point.

No it's not, atheism only states that there is no God. Not that religious people are evil.[/QUOtes]

Some would beg to differ on that first part of your statement, but I am in agreement with you.
Theism is only a statment of belief in God. Not a green light to religious fundamentalism.

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

Jan,
Way more people have acted evil in the name of various religions than ever acted evil in the name of atheism. In fact, I would argue that the examples you gave only occurred in the presence of a communist political philosphy which justified violent political revolution. Churches were a threat to their hegemony. Later on, even Stalin used the church to further his goals. You have yet to show how atheism rationalizes violence the way certain religious texts do. The bible, for example, holds up as an example of how to live, the act of abraham, who was going to kill his own son for God. While theism is only a belief in God, religions do not stop there. Atheism has no parallel to religion.

I get the distinct impression that you and others lump theists
in the same bracket as religious fundamentalists.

Yes, quite so. If there is a personal God, it's reasonable to assume He was involved in dictating to people how they should live, and so theism is the first step down the road to fundamentalism.

How can you say that with such confidence, with only the same information
as everyone else to make a conclusion. Did you know him personally, or know anyone that knew him personally? How do you explain the policies and actions of Enver Hoxha a devotee of Stalin?

It's history. The evils of Stalin or Hoxha were not more significant to your argument if they killed 50 million people than if they killed 50 people. Yet religions have caused more people to act evil as individuals, to hate others of different religions, to oppress women and burn witches or stone adulterers.

 

[jpappl]

well people keep asking me the same questions over and over...

i assume they're not "getting it". lol

No, not other people. You and I specifically, don't you remember ?

 

[jpappl]

Jan,

Some would beg to differ on that first part of your statement, but I am in agreement with you.
Theism is only a statment of belief in God. Not a green light to religious fundamentalism.

So you believe in god no problem.

Your not religious, don't follow any religions or would consider yourself a believer of any one faith ?

 

[Lori_7]

No, not other people. You and I specifically, don't you remember ?

of course i remember, but you asked me about the origins of the commands so i thought i would reiterate it for you, and i'm asking you...what the bleep would you think the origins were? you know?

it's not easy to describe the big picture, but you kinda have to see the big picture to understand what i see, and hence, to understand what i contribute it to.

 

[iceaura]

Then where does Enver Hoxha fit in.
He was an atheist, a devout Stalinist, Marxist. His policies were brutish like his mentors, and is believed to have murdered thousands, possibly tens of thousands of people. He focused on atheism as the school curriculum, encouraging communist students and workers to use forceful tactics to promote atheism. He closed thousands of religious institutes in his country, Albania, in which state atheism became the national policy.

That is your first example - and IIRC the first one I've seen on this forum - in which a great evil may have been done in the name of atheism by its atheist perpetrator.

I'm not familiar with Hoxha's justifications (he was the self-conscious leader of a traditionally godless people, so there was nationalism or identity defense involved in his rejection of alien institutions and imposed foreign customs generally - that would include any organized Christian church), but it's possible that he was acting in the name of an overt and specific atheism against specifically the theism of some people or organization.

But such examples are not common. Stalin wasn't one of them, AFAIK.

Meanwhile, you have been overlooking the justifications and expressed motives of the theistic evildoers mentioned. They act in the name of their Deity, justify their actions by reference to their Deity's wishes and commands, and so forth. That is not a symmetrical situation, compared with an atheist who also happens to do evil.

The usual formulation is: evil men do evil regardless. To get a good man to do evil, you need a religion. And a theistic religion is the best kind for that project.

 

[jpappl]

of course i remember, but you asked me about the origins of the commands so i thought i would reiterate it for you, and i'm asking you...what the bleep would you think the origins were? you know?

it's not easy to describe the big picture, but you kinda have to see the big picture to understand what i see, and hence, to understand what i contribute it to.

Ok, so here was my last response on it, never heard back:


Do you think it's possible that this


“ I did become infatuated with him for three reasons. One, because of the nature of the project. We were supposed to be accomplishing something good and divine. Two, because by that time, which was about 2 years later, I had become extremely frustrated and and isolated and angry and pretty desperate, and I identified with him. And three, because he and his music had always turned me off in the past ”

Had something to do with these events.


“ it was evident that something had gone terribly wrong and he was suffering. he had been deceived, he was pissed off, miserable, and crying out to someone to help him. that's when god told me to write him a letter ”

“ was ill. he had something wrong with his throat and had to cancel the remainder of their tour. then god told me to send him flowers ”

“ god was instructing me the whole time. told me which flowers to buy, what vase to buy. when i got home he told me what each type of flower was symbolic of, and how to arrange them. ”

The reason I wondered about that is love and desire are incredibly powerful. Sometimes they are most powerful when we don't know them really, they are beyond our knowing and thus we give them god or goddess like powers. They can do no wrong because of the image we have of them.

In that state we can and often do things that are far outside of our comfort zone or skills.

When I was young I dated a beautiful girl I was head over heels for, but I chased and she led me on and on. I would write amazing poetry and she loved it. I never write poetry but I spent the time doing it for her and it flowed out of my heart because essentially, she was perfect and pure in my mind. I was infatuated like never before.

She wasn't pure or perfect of course but it took a while to figure that out, because I had blinders on, love blinders. Turns out I wasn't the only one. Felt like an idiot. Only wrote poetry on one occasion since, for my wife.


“ I've had 2 anxiety attacks in my life and this experience didn't resemble those at all. And I wasn't anxious when it happened at all. I know they can be spontanious sometimes but I was actually quite relaxed. The experience was almost rapturous feeling. ”

Do you think it could possibly be something similar ?

It's pretty clear you feel they had a different feel to them, but they still could have been. This is a symptom of an anxiety attack.

* Feeling detached or unreal

Here is a sign that you may be susceptible

* Do you believe that something bad will happen if certain things aren’t done a certain way?

However, this would only possibly touch on the detached, out of body feeling that you got at times.

This also doesn't imply an anxiety disorder, but like what I had, thinking so deeply about the world and trying to take it all in yourself, the overwhelming magnitude of it all and bang. It collapses on top of you like a ton of bricks.

It's like you are taking the pain and the punishment for everyone else, but it's all in your mind. No one else is helped by it, no one else really cares or may even know what you just went through.

The strange thing is, when I had my one and only attack, I was listening to a song by one of my favorite bands, the words were corresponding to what I was deeply thinking about.

To me it wasn't god, it was reality, the reality of the incredible dilemma and the reality that things would have to get far worse than they would get better. I realized how small and insignificant we as individuals are. It was like a wave over me and I couldn't stop it.

 

[Lori_7]

i'm so sorry jpappl. i owe you a big apology. i purposely put that thread on the back burner because i get kind of exhausted trying to explain it sometimes. and then i get frustrated when people don't understand it. and then i reiterate the same thing in a different thread?!?! i'm being an idiot and i'm really sorry.

Ok, so here was my last response on it, never heard back:


Do you think it's possible that this


“ I did become infatuated with him for three reasons. One, because of the nature of the project. We were supposed to be accomplishing something good and divine. Two, because by that time, which was about 2 years later, I had become extremely frustrated and and isolated and angry and pretty desperate, and I identified with him. And three, because he and his music had always turned me off in the past ”

Had something to do with these events.

no. the preceding is in regards to trent reznor. the following is in regards to another artist who i was not in fact attracted to in any way. i was actually quite intimidated by the whole thing. the artist that i was asked to write to and send flowers to, at the time, was a very dark and intimidating person, or i saw him that way anyway. he's a very unusual guy, which i love now. now that he's not so dark and scary.

“ it was evident that something had gone terribly wrong and he was suffering. he had been deceived, he was pissed off, miserable, and crying out to someone to help him. that's when god told me to write him a letter ”

“ was ill. he had something wrong with his throat and had to cancel the remainder of their tour. then god told me to send him flowers ”

“ god was instructing me the whole time. told me which flowers to buy, what vase to buy. when i got home he told me what each type of flower was symbolic of, and how to arrange them. ”

The reason I wondered about that is love and desire are incredibly powerful. Sometimes they are most powerful when we don't know them really, they are beyond our knowing and thus we give them god or goddess like powers. They can do no wrong because of the image we have of them.

In that state we can and often do things that are far outside of our comfort zone or skills.

When I was young I dated a beautiful girl I was head over heels for, but I chased and she led me on and on. I would write amazing poetry and she loved it. I never write poetry but I spent the time doing it for her and it flowed out of my heart because essentially, she was perfect and pure in my mind. I was infatuated like never before.

She wasn't pure or perfect of course but it took a while to figure that out, because I had blinders on, love blinders. Turns out I wasn't the only one. Felt like an idiot. Only wrote poetry on one occasion since, for my wife.

no...that's not at all how i felt about that guy. not at all...

actually, it was rumored very heavily that he was gay. i did feel sorry for him though. i did want to help him.

“ I've had 2 anxiety attacks in my life and this experience didn't resemble those at all. And I wasn't anxious when it happened at all. I know they can be spontanious sometimes but I was actually quite relaxed. The experience was almost rapturous feeling. ”

Do you think it could possibly be something similar ?

It's pretty clear you feel they had a different feel to them, but they still could have been. This is a symptom of an anxiety attack.

* Feeling detached or unreal

Here is a sign that you may be susceptible

* Do you believe that something bad will happen if certain things aren’t done a certain way?

However, this would only possibly touch on the detached, out of body feeling that you got at times.

This also doesn't imply an anxiety disorder, but like what I had, thinking so deeply about the world and trying to take it all in yourself, the overwhelming magnitude of it all and bang. It collapses on top of you like a ton of bricks.

It's like you are taking the pain and the punishment for everyone else, but it's all in your mind. No one else is helped by it, no one else really cares or may even know what you just went through.

The strange thing is, when I had my one and only attack, I was listening to a song by one of my favorite bands, the words were corresponding to what I was deeply thinking about.

To me it wasn't god, it was reality, the reality of the incredible dilemma and the reality that things would have to get far worse than they would get better. I realized how small and insignificant we as individuals are. It was like a wave over me and I couldn't stop it.

no. that wasn't what i was thinking or feeling at all. this was extremely unexpected. the results i mean. i would have never anticipated what was about to happen to me in a million years. i also didn't feel pressured at all to do anything. it was an offer, and god was calling me on it. i wasn't stressed out. i felt a bit inadequate and i felt like god's request was a bit...silly really, but i just didn't understand what was about to happen is all. if i had, then i would have known his request wasn't so silly at all.

when the physical sensations occured...the feeling on my arms and neck and face...i did not feel out of my body at all. what i KNEW (somehow) was that there were two beings standing in front of me that i could not see, and that one of them (who i confirmed was this artist) was one of them when i asked him out loud, "_____________, is that you?" the sensation got a lot stronger.

i've only had one instance when it seemed like i was out of my body, and it was a recollection more than anything, during a time when i was walking into walls drunk, and something really bad was happening to me. but that is not related to anything i'm talking about here. that was years before...

 

[spidergoat]

I have had similar experiences, but I chose not to interpret them as being related to actual transcendental beings. I think because the human brain is likely to have evolved to it's great size and power in order to make sense of a complex social environment, it tends to interpret everything through that filter. We are very quick to assign personal names to inanimate objects like cars and boats. We interpret strange things in the dark to be ghosts of the dead. It's just human. But with some 2,000 years of science behind us, we don't have to submit to that intellectual prison.

 

[jpappl]

i'm so sorry jpappl. i owe you a big apology. i purposely put that thread on the back burner because i get kind of exhausted trying to explain it sometimes. and then i get frustrated when people don't understand it. and then i reiterate the same thing in a different thread?!?! i'm being an idiot and i'm really sorry.

no. the preceding is in regards to trent reznor. the following is in regards to another artist who i was not in fact attracted to in any way. i was actually quite intimidated by the whole thing. the artist that i was asked to write to and send flowers to, at the time, was a very dark and intimidating person, or i saw him that way anyway. he's a very unusual guy, which i love now. now that he's not so dark and scary.

no...that's not at all how i felt about that guy. not at all...

actually, it was rumored very heavily that he was gay. i did feel sorry for him though. i did want to help him.




no. that wasn't what i was thinking or feeling at all. this was extremely unexpected. the results i mean. i would have never anticipated what was about to happen to me in a million years. i also didn't feel pressured at all to do anything. it was an offer, and god was calling me on it. i wasn't stressed out. i felt a bit inadequate and i felt like god's request was a bit...silly really, but i just didn't understand what was about to happen is all. if i had, then i would have known his request wasn't so silly at all.

when the physical sensations occured...the feeling on my arms and neck and face...i did not feel out of my body at all. what i KNEW (somehow) was that there were two beings standing in front of me that i could not see, and that one of them (who i confirmed was this artist) was one of them when i asked him out loud, "_____________, is that you?" the sensation got a lot stronger.

i've only had one instance when it seemed like i was out of my body, and it was a recollection more than anything, during a time when i was walking into walls drunk, and something really bad was happening to me. but that is not related to anything i'm talking about here. that was years before...

No worries and thanks for responding.

What you experienced could have been something more psychological in nature and that was what I was trying to convey.

I am not saying it was for sure, because I don't know.

And I am not saying your crazy. But since most of us don't hear from god like what you have claimed occurred. It is acceptable to question whether there could be another explanation.

I am picking at you on the other thread (do you believe in dinosaurs) relating to belief in the bible and that being the foundation for the belief in god. Assuming the god who spoke to you.

If the bible is bs and is not filled with the words of god, then the bible is bs and therefore following the words of the bible as all telling is not very wise, to say the least.

So if not that god, then what god spoke to you ?

 

[Alien Cockroach]

mysteries usually come along with the word "solve"

Yes, which is what cosmologists around the world are trying to do. You, on the other hand, should stick to your "faith." It works for you, and atheists find you to be more credible when you clearly articulate that your "faith" is "believing without evidence." If you offer your religion as a source of spiritual fulfillment, that is one thing. It can even be pleasant sort of diatribe to sit through, in small doses. When you try to use your beliefs to explain the universe, though, atheists generally conclude that your brain has a malfunction.

 

[codanblad]

god is not an idea.

he is imo.

 

[nietzschefan]

well...lol. what do you call it when what most people including myself would call it a bevy of coincedences that come together to provide meaning and accomplishment?

how about spatial manipulation in the absence of time? lol. i just made that shit up right thar.

when this happened to me (the xtra-weird stuff), it was like all of a sudden, after 37 years, everything that had transpired in my entire life made sense. and that was strange.

if something keeps being presented to you in your environment (like say, a record), and you become attracted to it.

you listen to it, and you are drawn in, with alarm. you get the impression that the artist in is some serious shit and needs help. the serious shit just happens to relate to spiritual matters that you've been given revelation about previously.

you hear a voice in your head say, "write him a letter".

you think that's a ridiculous notion and request. so you don't do it while you investigate this guy and his apparent problem, finding nothing in confirmation.

while investigating, you hear that he is physically ill.

you hear a voice in your head say, "send him flowers".

an even more ridiculous request...seemingly impossible. how do you send a rock star flowers? i didn't know.

driving to work one day you hear, "hobby lobby has silk flowers".

ah ha! the band has a po box! eureka! problem solved, you're off the hook.

so you sit down to write, "get well soon!", and seven paragraphs of the most beautiful poetry you've ever heard comes out of you, and YOU DON'T WRITE POETRY. you're a frickin' accountant who has always been completely confounded by poetry or anything creative or imaginative for that matter and have never done such a thing in your life. you are well aware that something just moved through you. so exciting!

it's a miracle! it's a miracle!

you're then given another message that is so profoundly bizarre and not understood, that it almost scares you, "_____ _____ (the artist) is joey spagota." joey spagota being your childhood imaginary friend when you were oh, about 2-3 years old, that you only even remember because your parents still bring it up occasionally at the dinner table to embarrass you.

freaks you out...not understood, or comprehendable. you say, "he wasn't even born then". which if you think about it, is a dumb question/statement. the answer you receive is, "there is no time here". which makes even less sense to me.

so you try to put all that out of your mind, but you keep thinking about joey.

your thoughts, about real events in your childhood, albeit with an imaginary friend, build an outline, that turns into a transcendental writing, during which you see actual physical manifestations of a spirit inhabiting your body (or at least that's the only thing i could logically come up with to explain what i felt, saw, and was doing).

in the middle of the writing, the voice..."stop writing, go get your bible, and read the book of revelations".

ok.

about half-way through, when you get to the story about the woman and the dragon, you are aware of a presence via a physical sensation. somehow you know that there are two beings standing in front of you. the physical sensation lasts for about 3 minutes. you then receive revelations prophecy like a whirlwind through your mind.

more spiritual interactions ensue (these being with live people mind you, that are projecting themselves on an astral plane). as there's no other explanation that i'm aware of that would explain what they're doing.

shit morphs around on your coffee table one afternoon. (stationery actually)

and a bevy of "coincedences" proceed to happen in your environment that just happen to explain in part, what the fuck is going on.

including an assload of song lyrics from many bands, that substantiate exactly what i was going through. even entertaining depictions in the form of music videos.

...movies, literature, conversations with innocent people that don't know what the fuck is going on with you.

now you look at the man, that you were supposed to help, and he is better. the change in him is like night to day.

and you are better too having gone through this experience. stronger, more capable, no fear...peace.

you explain it.

lol The Human mid-brain is a terrible thing to fuck with.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Agnostics are theists. You are either an atheist, or not an atheist. Agnostics certainly aren't atheists, so they are theists.

Talk about bad logic

You are either for x or against x. Rocks are definately not for x, therefore rocks are against x.

Agnostics are agnostics. They are not considering the same question as theist/atheists.

The theist/atheist question is one of existence. The theists want to claim by fiat that gods exist and the atheists rightly refuse to accept such claims.

The agnostic question is one of what is knowable. In a sense agnostics are opposite both theists and hard atheists and like theists and atheists, there are basically two types.

The "soft" agnostic doesn't know if gods do or don't exist, but still thinks the question can be answered for or against even if they personally have not answered it yet. Usually this person has a direction they favor and could be considered a seeker and may see theirself as either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist.

The "hard" agnostic thinks that the question is inherently unresolvable. Such a person is definitely neither a theist nor atheist and doesn't identify with either of those positions since they are both unsupportable in her view.

Its unfortunately fairly common for certain theists and atheists to try and discount the agnostic position due to not understanding the difference between something existing in and of itself (an existential question) and actually knowing that something does or doesn't exist (an epistemological question).

Agnostics certainly are atheists. An atheist is anyone who does not believe in any god. That certainly includes agnostic.
There's no such thing as bad logic.
I'm not discounting the agnostic position. The agnostic position is "I don't know". The atheist position is "I don't believe". Same thing.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

There is absolutely no way for intelligent beings to have effected the beginning of the universe. It was just to hot and massive and there wasn't any where else to effect it from and there was no way to effect it. The notion is absolutely absurd. You might as well claim you put the moon in the sky with your mind.

You have no way of knowing that.