Atheists & Christians in the USA

[Aladdin]

dunno how much you have studied about God.
but there is a current belief that God made the angels first,angels have to do as they are told by God, God seen this and decided to create humanity and give them the ability to choose..

From the little I know about the Christian God I was left with the impression that he never learns anything, simply because there's nothing he doesn't already know. Newness is a purely abstract concept to God. So, you see, God knew how angels, humans and any number of other things will turn out to be long before he supposedly created them. Yet he persisted in creating all these creatures as if he himself is under the spell of Fate.

does this mean God made a mistake when he created angels?

You tell me.

why didn't he just bypass the angels and go straight to Man?

Better yet, why didn't he just bypassed the creation of the entire Universe and kept doing whatever he was doing in the eternity before that?

And what's with this Satan dude? What the hell did he create him for? And isn't he an angel? Why doesn't he just do what he's told?

How do you know he (Satan) doesn't do precisely that? What he's told, that is.

 

[NMSquirrel]

And what's with this Satan dude? What the hell did he create him for? And isn't he an angel? Why doesn't he just do what he's told?

How do you know he (Satan) doesn't do precisely that? What he's told, that is.

because God needed someone to clue us in that we make our own choices..?

 

[gmilam]

because God needed someone to clue us in that we make our own choices..?

I asked you first!

If you don't know, just say so. No harm in not knowing.

But, seriously, was he afraid that we wouldn't figure it out? Did he really need to threaten us and then throw a talking snake in to the mix to tempt us and make sure we fucked up?

Does this story really make sense to you?

 

[NMSquirrel]

I asked you first!

i struggled with whether i should put a question mark after that statement.
i believe that.

But, seriously, was he afraid that we wouldn't figure it out? Did he really need to threaten us and then throw a talking snake in to the mix to tempt us and make sure we fucked up?

why do ppl often demand proof for God?
to me it is like they do not want to be given a choice as to Gods existence.
IOW If God would just show me some supernatural sign, then i would have no choice but to believe. this argument also lines up with my argument about forcing someone to believe.

AND i still maintain that he is not threatening us, he is warning us,(cause and effect) if we do this,then this will happen..not if you do this, he will do this.
the best argument for that is the mom one..if your mom tells you if you touch the burner you will get burnt,that does not mean if you touch the burner your mom will burn you. this is the same logical fallacy that applies to the punishment/threat argument.

Does this story really make sense to you?

without Satan to put forth another option we would mindlessly obey God when he told us to do something without ever realizing that we could make our own choices. (at what age does one realize their parents do not have all the answers? i would say when they start school and they learn of other options)

 

[NMSquirrel]

From the little I know about the Christian God I was left with the impression that he never learns anything, simply because there's nothing he doesn't already know. Newness is a purely abstract concept to God. So, you see, God knew how angels, humans and any number of other things will turn out to be long before he supposedly created them. Yet he persisted in creating all these creatures as if he himself is under the spell of Fate.

i believe that God knows all..but that doesn't mean i can't question it.

 

[Aladdin]

i believe that God knows all...

How can you wrap your mind around this assertion? What possible reason could such a God have to do anything at all? If you can't come up with any reason then wouldn't that make God look like an unreasonable entity? (And who would want to be created by someone like that? )

 

[Aladdin]

why do ppl often demand proof for God?

Blame Science. It got people into that nasty habit of asking for evidence before taking something for granted.

to me it is like they do not want to be given a choice as to Gods existence.
IOW If God would just show me some supernatural sign, then i would have no choice but to believe.

And what exactly is wrong with not having this choice?

without Satan to put forth another option we would mindlessly obey God when he told us to do something without ever realizing that we could make our own choices. (at what age does one realize their parents do not have all the answers? i would say when they start school and they learn of other options)

So... you're saying there's some sort of connection between Satan and School then? Well, since I'm all for unschooling you got my vote there...

 

[gmilam]

why do ppl often demand proof for God?
to me it is like they do not want to be given a choice as to Gods existence.

We don't have a choice as to "god's" existence. It exists or not regardless of what we believe. I don't even think we have a choice as to what we believe. Personally, I can't make myself believe something.

 

[NMSquirrel]

What possible reason could such a God have to do anything at all?

not sure what you are asking..

---

We don't have a choice as to "god's" existence. It exists or not regardless of what we believe. I don't even think we have a choice as to what we believe. Personally, I can't make myself believe something.

the choice is whether to believe that he exists or not..

 

[gmilam]

not sure what you are asking..

---

the choice is whether to believe that he exists or not..

Can you choose what to believe? I highly doubt it... You either believe or you don't.

(For example) Can you choose to believe that a teacup orbits Saturn?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Can you choose what to believe? I highly doubt it... You either believe or you don't.

(For example) Can you choose to believe that a teacup orbits Saturn?

i choose to believe you are a good person..

i have questioned the overlap of God relating to humanity, and God relating to the physical world. (apples and oranges), the more i question it, the more i believe God is for humanity not for the physical world.

 

[gmilam]

i choose to believe you are a good person..

i have questioned the overlap of God relating to humanity, and God relating to the physical world. (apples and oranges), the more i question it, the more i believe God is for humanity not for the physical world.

Honestly, I like you. You seem like a good guy. I might even say I "believe" you are a good guy... But I don't know that I chose that opinion.

I know that I can't consciously choose to believe you're a scumbag. You would have to do something to alter my current opinion.

But I've never had ANY interaction with god... (God knows I've tried. ) Therefore I have nothing to form a belief on.

 

[NMSquirrel]

... But I don't know that I chose that opinion.

I know that I can't consciously choose to believe you're a scumbag. You would have to do something to alter my current opinion.

i think the difference may be an emotional one vs an intelligent one..we can intellectualise almost anything but it all comes down to how we feel about it (most ppl chose to focus on how they feel about something rather than accept the logical conclusions) (the argument against theists support this position)

But I've never had ANY interaction with god... (God knows I've tried. ) Therefore I have nothing to form a belief on.

to me i tend to find God in hindsight..he doesn't tend to be obvious in my life,and usually it involves someone else and it usually involves how i feel..
(there have been exceptions, but the exceptions are not the rule.)

has there been other areas in your life that you have tried hard to get something, only to finally get it when you gave up trying?
also maybe (which i argue alot) you are exactly where you need to be in Gods eyes.

 

[gmilam]

i think the difference may be an emotional one vs an intelligent one..we can intellectualise almost anything but it all comes down to how we feel about it (most ppl chose to focus on how they feel about something rather than accept the logical conclusions) (the argument against theists support this position)

This could very well be. I ("believe" that I) base decisions on knowledge rather than how I feel. My feelings can lead me astray. But my brain usually works fairly well... (Especially after I've had time to separate the feelings and then digest the information.)

to me i tend to find God in hindsight..he doesn't tend to be obvious in my life,and usually it involves someone else and it usually involves how i feel..
(there have been exceptions, but the exceptions are not the rule.)

There are times when it seems like I've benefited from "divine intervention"... But then something else happens that slaps that down and evens it all out. On second thought, it can usually be credited to dumb luck and/or random happenstance. (Both the good and the bad.)

has there been other areas in your life that you have tried hard to get something, only to finally get it when you gave up trying?

also maybe (which i argue alot) you are exactly where you need to be in Gods eyes.

All the time. I even tell people the best way to find something is to quit looking for it.

 

[kowalskil]

... i have questioned the overlap of God relating to humanity, and God relating to the physical world. (apples and oranges), the more i question it, the more i believe God is for humanity not for the physical world.

Each of us lives in two worlds, material and spiritual. You are correct that God is a spiritual world entity.
..............................................

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia). A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book entitled “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is a testimony based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

 

[wynn]

Each of us lives in two worlds, material and spiritual. You are correct that God is a spiritual world entity.

Oh, but He's got the whole world in His hand, He's got the whole world in His hand!

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Oh, but He's got the whole world in His hand, He's got the whole world in His hand!

That song is "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands." It's a big planet, not a one-handed job like puny little Mercury.

It's a traditional American spiritual, first published in a hymnal in 1927. The 1958 recording by English singer Laurie London (apparently in England that's a man's name) was the first gospel tune to reach #1 on any U.S. pop chart.

I've always enjoyed Christian music. Going back to my many years singing in school choirs, and including my penchant for volunteering for any Christmas chorus I can find, I've probably sung more hymns and spirituals than rock and roll.

It's okay. Song lyrics are literature, and literature is full of metaphors that do not require being taken literally.

Doncha just love YouTube: they've got a 53 year-old video of the original hit song! I wouldn't be surprised if it was a clip from the Ed Sullivan Show.