atheistic dualism

*Originally posted by Godless
Are you claiming that you come from mud?*

Of course.
That's an unavoidable conclusion whether you believe in evolution or creation.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Genesis 2:7, KJV).

As for evolution, I don't have a quote handy, but most evolutionists have to agree that man had to evolve from the dirt.

The difference seems to be that evolutionists say it takes billions of years to make man out of mud.
I say it's impossible, which is why God had to do it.

*or that you don't believe in evolution?.*

Pretty much.

*however if we were to say that theists are basically all the same, wouldn't I be wrong? of course I would be It is called rationalizing
I try to be objective, therefore I don't rationalize that all theists are air heads!.*

Hey, what's the internet for, if it isn't for making broad, sweeping generalizations?

*Here I was trying to pin-point the religious views on gay lives, which is one of a negative reaction.*

I see that, but mentioning gays and procreation in the same sentence makes it look like you don't know what either one is about.
 
Frank,

I come back to your original message.

If you mean by "atheist" someone who does not believe in a personalized God, then I can join you. Also I believe in afterlife and reincarnation. Details you will find on my website.

Regards
Hermann

---------------
Everyone sees the world with his own eyes - my updated weltanschauung (world outlook) is described at:
http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm
 
Hi Hermann,
This has been the second time I read your website. It is an interesting exposition, although (as you must have guessed) I do not always agree.
Unfortunaltely, I do not find much details. I am loking forward to an elaborated version of the exposition. How do you, for example, see the interaction between the two 'worlds' of your dualism? I think that would explain how reincarnation fits in. As for now, that is not alltogether clear.

Merlijn
 
Well...


First, thank you for all the information, Cris. :)

I find it strange though that atheists wants materialistic proof of something non-materialistic, isn´t THAT irrational? :D

Would you count your own experience as proof, if it didn´t leave any physical traces behind? Or anybody elses experience? :confused:

Well, Tony we seem to agree on at least one point, that materilalists have no humour! :D
 
Merlijn,

Thanks for reading my website again. It is difficult for me to explain everything clear enough just on some pages. Therefore I have added the links to many related forum discussions, where details are discussed in different aspects. Important points arising in such discussions I integrate from time to time into my website.

Here I will try to answer your question, how I see the interaction between the material and the spiritual world according to my weltanschauung:

During life our soul is captured by the biological body and interacts with the brain in an unknown manner. Our genes define the shape of our body and the capability of our brain (like computer hardware). They provide also the "software" for all biological processes inside the body and for instinctive reactions - but nothing else. All conscious activities and especially all intellectual actions are directly caused by the soul using the body as tool. That means all our forum discussions are discussions between individual souls. If our souls were not captured by the bodies, we could communicate directly, but now we have to communicate via bodies, PCs and internet.

During the life we cannot actively remember former lives, but the gained experience is still latent existing. As child we have to learn how to use the brain and the body properly and we are exposed to our new environment. With the latent knowledge and the new impressions our soul will further develop during actions in life. The primary world is the spiritual one where our souls are at home. There we will have full knowledge of the experiences from all our lives. The material world (not limited to the earth) is some kind of school, where we could be incarnated for lives from time to time finding there optimum conditions for an effective individual development. The individual development is not restricted by the material world - it is unlimited and at least later self-defined. The development of an individual soul starts as almost nothing just connected with biological items at a low development level. The process of development is optimized by universal laws, but later from humans upwards we will be more and more able to define the direction of our development by ourselves.

I hope, this answers your question. I assume, I am a deist, but not believing in a personalized God. Our doings influence our individual development - there is no final judgment. I do also not believe in an absolute truth or in absolute ethical values as you know. The latter is perhaps the main difference between our opinions.

Hermann

---------------
Everyone sees the world with his own eyes - my updated weltanschauung (world outlook) is described at:
http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm
 
Re: Well...

*Originally posted by Bebelina
all the information, Cris. *

Cris is a great source of material.
In the atheistic tradition, he thinks it is all scientific.
The rest of the world sees it as comedic.

*I find it strange though that atheists wants materialistic proof of something non-materialistic, isn´t THAT irrational? *

Oh oh, I sense a certain amount of agreement with you on that.

*Would you count your own experience as proof, if it didn´t leave any physical traces behind? Or anybody elses experience? *

Atheists actually don't accept anything.
As Cris so aptly puts it, atheists don't know anything.

*Well, Tony we seem to agree on at least one point, that materilalists have no humour! :*

This is getting scary.
Agreement with a non-believer is usually a bad thing.

*Originally posted by Hermann
During life our soul is captured by the biological body and interacts with the brain in an unknown manner.*

I checked out your website, and I was astounded to find that you have a PhD degree.
What is that, a Phake Degree?

If it isn't, it is proof of the following...

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
(1 Corinthians 1:19, KJV).

*If our souls were not captured by the bodies, we could communicate directly, but now we have to communicate via bodies, PCs and internet. *

You obviously don't know what a soul is.
It is you.

*There we will have full knowledge of the experiences from all our lives.*

What good does it do there?
The full knowledge of your experience would be far more useful here, where you are (if you are here, that is).

*later from humans upwards we will be more and more able to define the direction of our development by ourselves. *

LOL!
"later from humans upwards" ha ha.
Later, you will be a corpse.

*I do also not believe in an absolute truth or in absolute ethical values as you know.*

Here is an absolute truth for you, your PhD was wasted.
You can't understand simple logic.

You just made a paradoxical statement that establishes your inability to think clearly.

Your statement is an absolute statement about your own belief.
If your statement is true then your belief is false and you do believe at least one absolute truth.
But if you believe at least one absolute truth, then your statement is false.

So much for the value of a PhD.
 
Here we see the stupidity of Christian faith

Cris is a great source of material.
In the atheistic tradition, he thinks it is all scientific.
The rest of the world sees it as comedic.
Click to expand...
Inasmuch as any Chrisitian objects to an infidel noting that "Christians ____" (do any particular thing), we hear much about diversity, or how those aren't Christians, or how it's too Catholic, or how the infidel just isn't capable of understanding.

And yet Tony1 claims that understanding.

Tony1 has ignored Cris' prior acknowledgements of inexplicable superstitions among atheists, and utterly ignores the idea that one need not have "God" for such superstitions to find root.

Furthermore, Tony1 speaks generally as if he is the definitive voice of Christianity, deciding who is or isn't Christian. And now he's so full of pucky that he'll speak for the rest of the world.

I mean really, is there any more shining example of the absolute crap that is Chrisitanity? Is there any more repugnant an example that we see with any consistency than this embodiment of the arrogances of Christian faith? The hatred Tony1 shows his neighbors, deeming them worth or unworthy of the God he has wrought?

I would suggest the mere revision of being more careful with his words, yet Tony1, who is known for making finer distinctions than I have made today, is consciously as reckless with his words as he has ever been. We can only conclude that the faux pas is not so faux, and that our man Tony1 has finally assumed megalomaniacal perspectives: he knows what you think and how you feel, and will tell you better than you can tell yourself.

Really, how much longer do we have to put up with this kind of wicked sidetracking? Just because he has nothing to offer the world doesn't mean the most Christian thing he can do is go around and distract everyone else.

And while I'm at it, I shall assume that, except for the occasional doctrinal inquiry, that our Christian fellow posters approve of Tony1's representations of their faith. In that sense, the lot of you are nothing more than what was expected.

Take responsibility for your church. Take responsibility for your faith. Perhaps you are so arrogant as to feel offended every time someone disagrees with Christianity, but without a little bit of that legendary Christian empathy (a vital facet of "compassion"), you'll never understand why the human species is finding less and less need for such a petty-built faith.

And do something about Loone, too. The two of them make a mockery of your faith, and paint an image that Christianity reduces everything from your intellect (a Christian pride, actually, but I'll work around that idea) to the human species (the end is coming, right?) ....

If you choose to say there is no cohesive body of Christ among the faithful, then fine, I'll agree. But no more, then, about persecuting "Christianity" when the public rejects your slogans, or your hatreds of people. Without a cohesive body of Christ, you are no more than the whacko on the next barstool.

So Christians, take responsibility for your flocks. You're making damn fools of yourselves, and in your more permissive modes, allowing your compassion to become a weapon.

And this is the best picture our Christian posters demonstrate. At worst, the lot of you are that stupid and cruel and poorly conspiritorial.

But Tony1 has recently surrendered his rhetorical position by the mere act of being too lazy to even cite something to ridicule. Hopefully, he will allow proper debate to take place, and not distract everyone with his hateful arrogance.

So Christians select: if you've a body of Christ, either disassociate from your irresponsible parts or take responsibility for them. If not, then let's pour a drink and celebrate the possibility of peace and quiet and reasoned debate.

It's up to y'all.

Show us what you got, or take the Tony1 way out and just admit that you don't have anything to go on. But the way I figure it, we've got a lot of ground to cover once we get serious about a few things.

It's up to you. The "rest of the world" will carry on with its petty strifes; if you ever choose to join us in seeking a solution, we'll welcome you wholeheartedly.

But clean up your own damn house now; it's time.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
*Originally posted by tiassa
Tony1 has ignored Cris' prior acknowledgements of inexplicable superstitions among atheists, and utterly ignores the idea that one need not have "God" for such superstitions to find root.*

This helps Cris, how?

*he knows what you think and how you feel*

It's easy on a message board because everybody writes it down.

*Really, how much longer do we have to put up with this kind of wicked sidetracking?*

Until you stop?

*allowing your compassion to become a weapon.*

Obviously, something is bothering you.
Why don't you tell us what it is?

*But the way I figure it, we've got a lot of ground to cover once we get serious about a few things.*

Give us a schedule, and we'll see what we can do.
 
The sideshow continues ....

This helps Cris, how?
Click to expand...
Only in abstract ways. Mainly it points out your cowardly approach to things here. It seems quite clearly to pertain to your habit of inventing ideas to argue against instead of dealing with what's on the table.
It's easy on a message board because everybody writes it down.
Click to expand...
Right. Whatever. Tony1, nobody pretends for a moment that these personas are definitive. The only time we believe such a thing is as we see in your case: unrelenting dedication to a complete lack of dimension. We've come to believe this is all you have to offer because it's all you've shown, and it ain't worth much. Other posters whose words reflect their diverse , thinking selves ... we may disagree but we know what we see here isn't definitive. Why do you strive to present yourself so two-dimensionally?
Until you stop?
Click to expand...
So this is about stopping Tiassa? Not about honoring and evangelizing God's Word? That's a bit telling of your motives, and leaves your assumption of salvation quite laughable, assuming, of course, that it wasn't already.
Obviously, something is bothering you.
Why don't you tell us what it is?
Click to expand...
I'll assume sarcasm. No, wait, this is, after all, you, Tony1. It's actually more than possible you don't realize that I have been. The utter lack of any embodiment of Christ's compassion or wisdom in your posts is about typical of Christianity. This would not be problematic except that Christians are interfering with the progress of society. The roadblocks Christians hurl into education are astounding: at every turn it seems someone is violating your godforsaken rights. Intellectual freedom does not mean to take what you've got and call it an intellect. You have to actually understand what you believe before those decisions are intellectual. It's a shame you've surrendered yourself to faith and renounced your commitment to humankind.
Give us a schedule, and we'll see what we can do.
Click to expand...
We'll wait on schedules, Tony1, until we're sure you can read them.

--Tiassa :cool:
 
Re: Well...

Bebelina

I find it strange though that atheists wants materialistic proof of something non-materialistic, isn´t THAT irrational? :D
Click to expand...

Ha ha (just to prove I have a sense of humor), but, where did I say materialistic proof? I think I have simply stated a need for factual evidence and proofs without qualifying which type.

Now, of course, if you can provide non-materialistic proof then that would be great, but… but… how would we as materialistic individuals be able to perceive such evidence? Ah, silly me, of course, you believe that humans are part non-material, so clearly our non-material component will be able to recognize any type of non-material proof.

But…but…wait, how would our material component know about this proof so that it could communicate such evidence to others? For our materialistic part to understand what our non-material parts tells us requires materialistic communication. This must be true since our brains control our speech and writing abilities and the brain is clearly material. So somehow our non-material component must be able to communicate with our material brains. But to do that it must have a material component.

But…but…wait, if our non-material component has a material component then how does the non-material part communicate with the material component of itself? Clearly the non-material component of our non-material component must have a material component that can communicate with the non-material component of our non-material component.

But… but… wait, how……

If you can follow that then you can see that the non-material component will eventually disappear into an infinitely small component as to be effectively non-existent. The net result is that an alleged non-material component could never communicate with the material world.

This means that you can never demonstrate a proof for a non-material entity, it also means that you can never know if a non-material entity exists since it cannot be shown to exist and it has no way to communicate with you.

This non-proof of a non-material entity that cannot be known to exist can be stated more simply as: The properties of an invisible non-material un-provable entity equate perfectly with the definition of “nothing”, i.e. something that does not exist. And that is a far more credible explanation of spirits and gods.

Would you count your own experience as proof, if it didn´t leave any physical traces behind? Or anybody elses experience? :confused:
Click to expand...

? Please explain what that question means.

Cris
 
Tiassa wrote:

"Really, how much longer do we have to put up with this kind of wicked sidetracking? Just because he [Tony1] has nothing to offer the world doesn't mean the most Christian thing he can do is go around and distract everyone else."



~~~~~~~~

Please pardon the intrusion, folks...

And with all due respect...

No one has to respond to a viewpoint they don't agree with. I'm still new here, but on the few threads I've read so far, it seems like Tony1, (and those who post in a similar, nonsensical fashion), have absolutely no reason to stop spewing. Tony1 is pretty much guaranteed an audience every time he posts here. Someone always rewards him with a response.

If he actually ever did try to discuss an issue in a reasonable way, the effort to enlighten him might be justified. So far, I've seen no evidence that he desires to be reasonable; only a desire to make others look foolish for arguing with a man/woman who will not be argued with.

If I may make so bold...? I suggest you carry on with your discussion about atheistic dualism. It's very interesting stuff.

~~~

regards,

Counterbalance
 
Counterbalance,

You are absolutely right. Toni can tell me now whatever he wants - I will not respond. Others should do the same, because this seems to be the only way to stop him.

---------------
Everyone sees the world with his own eyes - my updated weltanschauung (world outlook) is described at:
http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm
 
Yes Cris..

So, you BELIEVE that there is nothing more than the materialistic world then ,with other words? :confused:

It´s ok, you can do that, I won´t harrass you....well, maybe just a little then...:p

What I meant by that last question you didn´t understand was just as it said , that would you take your own experience as proof? For example seing a spirit, feeling that there is more than the materialistic world. Or travelling with your astral body, or having clairvoyant dreams, for example? :eek:

How would you explain such experiences to yourself if you had them? Would you call 911, thinking that you have lost your mind? What is the mind to you?
Is it simply the brainpatterns it produces? What is love, a chemically generated emotion? :p

Would such an experience change your point of view, or would it totally wreck your self image? :eek:

Probably both, because if you don´t believe in them, they can be very traumatic when they happen....:D

Tony, you´re right, this is scary and very bizarre, I think we should go back to disagreeing instead...:D
 
Yawn... I´ve met small elf like creatures in the forest. I told myself I was hallucinating, they told me "So what, we´re here aren´t we?"

A scientist giving hard proof of any given phenomena does not mean he is real or unreal. Maybe I´ve never posted here at sciforums, maybe I´m just sleeping on the subway. Past and present in the realm of dreams is a complete environment. What differs it from this reality?

So many ppl are proud to call themselves atheists or materialists. That is playing life on a miniscule court when there is a whole open field just a few paces away.

Nothing can be proven and nothing denied. Any boundaries set up by the individual is just lack of dimension or maybe agoraphobia.

Smurf :)
 
I'm an atheist in that I reject the accuracy of most all religious claims & practices. However I don't reject the supernatural strictly.
Things are only magical untill it is understood.
Lighting and other such phenomona had mystical significance for many cultures in the past, now we understand it, its no longer magical.
People tend to get caught up in the excitment around paranormal phenomona, causing alot of the real evidence to be buried under hysteria. However this is the process, eventually there will be some scientific insight and explaination into supernatural phenomona. Perhaps we will discover an afterlife.
There are always things we don't understand and can't explain. The cruical thing to remember is we don't know YET.
So my perception is that the true answers about life & death are a long way off.
Perhaps we will discover an afterlife.
But the interesting thing is, what if there is no afterlife?
How do we solve that problem? Do we create a afterlife for ourselves, transcending material form and death?

If we aren't alone in the universe then perhaps some species somewhere has solved the problem millions of years ago and created an afterlife for all life in the universe?
Perhaps they send a message to young species letting them know not to fear death because their soul will be saved from oblivion?
 
xvenomousx wrote:

"If we aren't alone in the universe then perhaps some species somewhere has solved the problem millions of years ago and created an afterlife for all life in the universe?
Perhaps they send a message to young species letting them know not to fear death because their soul will be saved from oblivion?"


~~~~

Interesting thought. Have you posted a theory about this elsewhere on the board. Just curious.


Counterbalance


~~~

Beer is good?

Ahhh... but whiskey's better! :)
 
Re: The sideshow continues ....

*Originally posted by tiassa
Only in abstract ways.*

IOW, not in any concrete way.

*nobody pretends for a moment that these personas are definitive.*

I should hope not.

*Why do you strive to present yourself so two-dimensionally?*

It's the only way you can grasp?

*So this is about stopping Tiassa?*

You asked "How much longer?"
I answered "Until you stop."

You don't have to stop your wicked sidetracking, if you don't want to.
Until the end of the world, anyway.

*you don't realize that I have been.*

How could I have?
Your posts seem so random, that it is difficult to sense any direction to them.

Thus my question.
If something is bothering you, why don't you simply tell us what it is and stop beating around the bush?

*Originally posted by Cris
This non-proof of a non-material entity that cannot be known to exist can be stated more simply as: The properties of an invisible non-material un-provable entity equate perfectly with the definition of “nothing”, i.e. something that does not exist. And that is a far more credible explanation of spirits and gods. *

Bebelina, as you can see, while Cris does have a sense of humor, it doesn't extend to the recognition of the comedy inherent in the material he just provided.

*Originally posted by Counterbalance
I'm still new here, but on the few threads I've read so far, it seems like Tony1, (and those who post in a similar, nonsensical fashion)*

We thank you for your example of nonsensical posting.

*Originally posted by Hermann
Toni can tell me now whatever he wants - I will not respond.*

Of course not, what could you possibly respond with?
More paradoxical contradictions?

*Originally posted by Bebelina
What is the mind to you? Is it simply the brainpatterns it produces?*

That's quite the question to ask Cris.
He actually believes that he will live forever as a copy of his own brain patterns.
I hope the Xerox machine is working correctly when he places all of his eggs in that basket.

*Tony, you´re right, this is scary and very bizarre, I think we should go back to disagreeing instead...*

I agree. (oh, oh)

*Originally posted by xvenomousx
So my perception is that the true answers about life & death are a long way off. *

Not that long, only until the end of your life, which could be any time.
 
Do contact me, Frank M. and other atheistic dualists

I'm a philosophy writer and I'm very much an atheistic dualist. Currently I'm writing a lengthy book detailing my philosophy and would love to interact with like minds who see the physical and the mental as operating in totally independent realities. Yes, I do believe there is more than one reality. And I don't believe it's a matter of good vs. bad or superior vs. inferior. It's difficult to explain and make clear to most people that what's real to the mind is totally different than what's physical. Let's discuss the meaning of the concept "reality" first and then we can have a solid frame of reference on which to continue.

I can be reached at liftr450@yahoo.com

I do believe atheistic dualism holds the only hope for the future of humanity. Finding like minds and exchanging meaningful ideas thoughtfully is a big part of making real progress happen. Thank you all.

Larry Jones
 
Wow - way to go!
Raise an almost exactly 6 year old thread, almost to the day of the last post!! :D

A question, though - why would you want to discuss this with like-minds, rather than explore your thoughts through argument / counter-argument?
Do you feel you'd be unable to support your position with anything substantial, and thus only wish to discuss with those who won't question you? Just curious.
 
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