atheistic dualism
- Thread starter Frank M.
- Start date
It is religion and it is a particularly inaccurate one, too.
It is not religion, this is natural phenomena, it occurs whether you believe in God or not. Religion is put in place by God to try and overcome the cycle of birth and death and eventually come to the platform of God Consciousness.
One should consider the circumstances under which such descriptions arise.
This was told by God to his devotee on a battlefield, after His devotee refused to take part in the battle. What is your point?
It is a perfect description of demon possession.
Nonesense.
*Bhagavad Gita. 2:13 is reasonable evidence.*
It is, but of what?
That the spirit-soul and the body are different. The spirit-soul being eternal and the material body temporary.
It is not religion, this is natural phenomena, it occurs whether you believe in God or not. Religion is put in place by God to try and overcome the cycle of birth and death and eventually come to the platform of God Consciousness.
One should consider the circumstances under which such descriptions arise.
This was told by God to his devotee on a battlefield, after His devotee refused to take part in the battle. What is your point?
It is a perfect description of demon possession.
Nonesense.
*Bhagavad Gita. 2:13 is reasonable evidence.*
It is, but of what?
That the spirit-soul and the body are different. The spirit-soul being eternal and the material body temporary.
Re: No...
Originally posted by Bebelina
..too narrow!!!
Sorry, just want to start a fight.., I wanna see some action in here sometime...
What is the difference between an atheist and a materialist?
NOTHING
Jan Ardena,
I am living proof that there must be a difference between atheism and materialism since I am not an atheist, but I am a materialist.
As a scientist, I have to acknowledge that the body is indeed changing all the time. But too fast to percieve? tat doesn't make sense. Don't you mean "too slow to percieve", or "on a too tiny scale to percieve"?
And that is nonscientific. It may eventuelle become science, when - and only when - there is a rational explanation as to how this entity interacts with the physical world. And some quote like: "our spirit it is eternal energy", or "it is vibration" (thinking that the keywords are physical) will not do. It can easily be proven that these are just masks put on in an attempt to sound (quasi) scientific.
Don't get me wrong. There is much yet unexplained in the world. So I will keep an open mind. However, the interaction-conditio sine qua non must be met!
regards,
Merlijn
I am living proof that there must be a difference between atheism and materialism since I am not an atheist, but I am a materialist.
What exactly do you mean?
As a scientist, I have to acknowledge that the body is indeed changing all the time. But too fast to percieve? tat doesn't make sense. Don't you mean "too slow to percieve", or "on a too tiny scale to percieve"?
This is not at all science, because it assumes that there is some astral essense, or whatever whatever description you would like.
And that is nonscientific. It may eventuelle become science, when - and only when - there is a rational explanation as to how this entity interacts with the physical world. And some quote like: "our spirit it is eternal energy", or "it is vibration" (thinking that the keywords are physical) will not do. It can easily be proven that these are just masks put on in an attempt to sound (quasi) scientific.
Don't get me wrong. There is much yet unexplained in the world. So I will keep an open mind. However, the interaction-conditio sine qua non must be met!
regards,
Merlijn
Reasons why I'm an athiest
Quote;
Bebelina ..That atheists are BOOORING!!!
Explain boring? atheist live free of sin, therefore we have more fun, athiest live within the realms of reality as it is, not as we wish it were, athiest have very articulate minds, we like to nick pick every topic.
Quote:
Bambi, We think too much.
This is because we know we have free will, which is the ability to think for ourselves, as opposed to KalvinB believes that he does't have free will cause only god does?.
Quote:
Jan Adrea; It is not religion, this is natural phenomena, it occurs whether you believe in God or not. Religion is put in place by God to try and overcome the cycle of birth and death and eventually come to the platform of God Consciousness.
Death is a natural phenomena, however it was the fear of death that of the unknown which elevated men to create gods, for the comfort of dealing with those unknown. ie, It's thundering the gods must be angree, the volcano needs a virgin to pease it down so it wont errupt, etc..
Quote:
Tony1; As a corpse.
Dying is opposite of living.
So are you finally coming to understand reality? don't you believe in the afterlife?, after all, you'r a thiest, you believe you will go to heaven, what do you call that? *Faith is opposite of Reason!*
Quote:
Merlijn; Hopefully you'll die well after Bill Gates can produce new children.
It was meant as a joke, I don't believe in reincarnation either.
Quote:
Leonard Peikoff;( Every argument for god and every attribute ascribed to him rests on a false metaphysical premise. None can survive for a moment on a correct metaphysics.
Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence--some supernatural realm--you must do it by openly denying reason, dispensing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, "TO HELL WITH ARGUMENT, I HAVE FAITH." That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.
Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reason I have already given, it is atheist. It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence. This applies not only to god but also to every variant of the supernatural ever advocated or to be advocated. In other words, we accept reality, and that's all.)
I am an athiest; and this does not imply me nor incriminate me, atheism is not about belif nor disbelif in god, it's the non belief of religious values.
To say I believe in something I would have to know what that something is, as the same it would be not to belief in that something one would have to know what one does not belive in.
For example, the thiest says, I belive in god, what is god?, or the athiest who claims that there is no god, without definition of what god is, is just as sencesless as the theist.
I don't accept religious claims of an obnipotent being.
Quote;
Bebelina ..That atheists are BOOORING!!!
Explain boring? atheist live free of sin, therefore we have more fun, athiest live within the realms of reality as it is, not as we wish it were, athiest have very articulate minds, we like to nick pick every topic.
Quote:
Bambi, We think too much.
This is because we know we have free will, which is the ability to think for ourselves, as opposed to KalvinB believes that he does't have free will cause only god does?.
Quote:
Jan Adrea; It is not religion, this is natural phenomena, it occurs whether you believe in God or not. Religion is put in place by God to try and overcome the cycle of birth and death and eventually come to the platform of God Consciousness.
Death is a natural phenomena, however it was the fear of death that of the unknown which elevated men to create gods, for the comfort of dealing with those unknown. ie, It's thundering the gods must be angree, the volcano needs a virgin to pease it down so it wont errupt, etc..
Quote:
Tony1; As a corpse.
Dying is opposite of living.
So are you finally coming to understand reality? don't you believe in the afterlife?, after all, you'r a thiest, you believe you will go to heaven, what do you call that? *Faith is opposite of Reason!*
Quote:
Merlijn; Hopefully you'll die well after Bill Gates can produce new children.
It was meant as a joke, I don't believe in reincarnation either.
Quote:
Leonard Peikoff;( Every argument for god and every attribute ascribed to him rests on a false metaphysical premise. None can survive for a moment on a correct metaphysics.
Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible, eternal. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence--some supernatural realm--you must do it by openly denying reason, dispensing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, "TO HELL WITH ARGUMENT, I HAVE FAITH." That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.
Objectivism advocates reason as man's sole means of knowledge, and therefore, for the reason I have already given, it is atheist. It denies any supernatural dimension presented as a contradiction of nature, of existence. This applies not only to god but also to every variant of the supernatural ever advocated or to be advocated. In other words, we accept reality, and that's all.)
I am an athiest; and this does not imply me nor incriminate me, atheism is not about belif nor disbelif in god, it's the non belief of religious values.
To say I believe in something I would have to know what that something is, as the same it would be not to belief in that something one would have to know what one does not belive in.
For example, the thiest says, I belive in god, what is god?, or the athiest who claims that there is no god, without definition of what god is, is just as sencesless as the theist.
I don't accept religious claims of an obnipotent being.
Interesting...
So you say that atheists in general have a special kind of personality too? With "very articulate minds" ?
Now I am a bit confused here, because I have read that materialists only believe that there is nothing else but physical matter in this world, that there is no afterlife and that there is no soul, so that would automatically make them atheists too, or?
I can understand that someone can claim to be both, but can you be an atheists and not be a materialist and vice versa? I that case , explain the difference more precisely, in philisophical terms.
Is an atheist someone who simply don´t belong to any religion and still can believe in the soul and the spiritual world and an afterlife for example, or do an atheist just as a materialist believes that there´s nothing more than matter? That the consciousness dies with the brain?
Or has the concept of being an atheist or materialist melted into the concept of being a scepticist? That everything is possible and that there is just no way of really knowing anything for sure?
Godless, how you do define sin? And in what way would that be fun?
So you say that atheists in general have a special kind of personality too? With "very articulate minds" ?
Now I am a bit confused here, because I have read that materialists only believe that there is nothing else but physical matter in this world, that there is no afterlife and that there is no soul, so that would automatically make them atheists too, or?
I can understand that someone can claim to be both, but can you be an atheists and not be a materialist and vice versa? I that case , explain the difference more precisely, in philisophical terms.
Is an atheist someone who simply don´t belong to any religion and still can believe in the soul and the spiritual world and an afterlife for example, or do an atheist just as a materialist believes that there´s nothing more than matter? That the consciousness dies with the brain?
Or has the concept of being an atheist or materialist melted into the concept of being a scepticist? That everything is possible and that there is just no way of really knowing anything for sure?
Godless, how you do define sin? And in what way would that be fun?
Bebelina, and godless,
I’d like to help a little here and explain some definitions.
Theism (belief in a god).
Atheism (no belief in a god), The ‘a’ in atheism simply means no.
It is important to note that ‘no belief’ is not the same as a belief in an opposite. For example, a belief that there is no god is a positive belief and is a claim that would need to be supported, whereas ‘no belief’ is a simple statement asserting disbelief in a claim.
Most atheists, once they properly understand these important distinctions, take care to assert their disbelief in the theist’s claim (because there is no factual support), rather than come outright and state there is no god, since that would also be a claim that is also difficult to support.
The atheist takes the position that the theist has made a claim and if they want others to believe their claim then they need to show factual support. So far, in the history of humanity no religion has been able to show any evidence that supports the existence of any gods or the existence of an afterlife. We can be certain of this since theists insist that their followers believe on faith. If there were facts then the belief could be based on those facts and a call to faith would be unnecessary. Faith is simply a requirement to believe something without any factual evidence.
The problem of believing something without any facts is that the belief could be totally wrong. For example a few centuries ago most people on the planet believed that the world was flat. The belief was based on popular perceptions that were not based on any factual and rational research.
Rationality is that mechanism and set of thought processes that allow one to reach a conclusion based on established facts. Such conclusions are generally seen as highly reliable and are usually considered as representations of truth. Scientific methodologies are based on these processes.
Irrationality is where conclusions are reached without recourse to the processes of logical reasoning and where there is no certainty that the conclusions represent truth. This is the process adopted by all religions, although deists might argue slightly differently. Such religions are technically irrational and represent dangers and the encouragement of ignorance similar to those times where the flat Earth was official policy.
Informed and responsible atheists try to organize their lives based on rational processes.
Hope that helps.
Cris
I’d like to help a little here and explain some definitions.
Theism (belief in a god).
Atheism (no belief in a god), The ‘a’ in atheism simply means no.
It is important to note that ‘no belief’ is not the same as a belief in an opposite. For example, a belief that there is no god is a positive belief and is a claim that would need to be supported, whereas ‘no belief’ is a simple statement asserting disbelief in a claim.
Most atheists, once they properly understand these important distinctions, take care to assert their disbelief in the theist’s claim (because there is no factual support), rather than come outright and state there is no god, since that would also be a claim that is also difficult to support.
The atheist takes the position that the theist has made a claim and if they want others to believe their claim then they need to show factual support. So far, in the history of humanity no religion has been able to show any evidence that supports the existence of any gods or the existence of an afterlife. We can be certain of this since theists insist that their followers believe on faith. If there were facts then the belief could be based on those facts and a call to faith would be unnecessary. Faith is simply a requirement to believe something without any factual evidence.
The problem of believing something without any facts is that the belief could be totally wrong. For example a few centuries ago most people on the planet believed that the world was flat. The belief was based on popular perceptions that were not based on any factual and rational research.
Rationality is that mechanism and set of thought processes that allow one to reach a conclusion based on established facts. Such conclusions are generally seen as highly reliable and are usually considered as representations of truth. Scientific methodologies are based on these processes.
Irrationality is where conclusions are reached without recourse to the processes of logical reasoning and where there is no certainty that the conclusions represent truth. This is the process adopted by all religions, although deists might argue slightly differently. Such religions are technically irrational and represent dangers and the encouragement of ignorance similar to those times where the flat Earth was official policy.
Informed and responsible atheists try to organize their lives based on rational processes.
Hope that helps.
Cris
Continuing my helpful comments.
Once you accept that atheists base their positions on rational thought then the question of an afterlife is usually considered in a similar light as theism. Since there is also no evidence for an afterlife then to believe such a claim is equally irrational to a belief in gods.
For typical informed rational atheists it is paradoxical to find one who is atheistic but dualistic.
So I don’t think that exploring atheistic dualists has any value except to point out, to Frank for example, that such people have not yet fully understood the issues surrounding mainstream atheism.
However, a materialistic theist, I guess is possible, although I do not know of any examples. This makes sense when you realize that the underlying basis of every religion is to find a way to cheat death. The fear of death created all the mythologies that gave rise to religions and similar superstitions.
Cris
Once you accept that atheists base their positions on rational thought then the question of an afterlife is usually considered in a similar light as theism. Since there is also no evidence for an afterlife then to believe such a claim is equally irrational to a belief in gods.
For typical informed rational atheists it is paradoxical to find one who is atheistic but dualistic.
So I don’t think that exploring atheistic dualists has any value except to point out, to Frank for example, that such people have not yet fully understood the issues surrounding mainstream atheism.
However, a materialistic theist, I guess is possible, although I do not know of any examples. This makes sense when you realize that the underlying basis of every religion is to find a way to cheat death. The fear of death created all the mythologies that gave rise to religions and similar superstitions.
Cris
Well written, Cris. Congratulations.
I will write a somwhat lengthier reply later on, since I will try to explain why -using the same line of reasoning- I think deism (albeit I will have to use a somewhat unconventional definition) is rational.
With that I hope to be an example (maybe not a very good one)of the possibility of materialistic theism. Also, this theism is not at all based on a fear of death. You will see...
Merlijn
I will write a somwhat lengthier reply later on, since I will try to explain why -using the same line of reasoning- I think deism (albeit I will have to use a somewhat unconventional definition) is rational.
With that I hope to be an example (maybe not a very good one)of the possibility of materialistic theism. Also, this theism is not at all based on a fear of death. You will see...
Merlijn
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Originally posted by Merlijn
Jan Ardena,
I am living proof that there must be a difference between atheism and materialism since I am not an atheist, but I am a materialist.
Materialism: a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort to be more important than spiritual values.
Unless we use our oppulence in the sevice of God, how can we really say we 'believe' in Him. It is like saying, I believe in Joe Bloggs the politician and then voting for the opposition, it is hypocrasy.
What exactly do you mean?
As a scientist, I have to acknowledge that the body is indeed changing all the time. But too fast to percieve? tat doesn't make sense. Don't you mean "too slow to percieve", or "on a too tiny scale to percieve"?
I'm sorry I meant too tiny to percieve. Thank for pointing that out.
This is not at all science, because it assumes that there is some astral essense, or whatever whatever description you would like.
And that is nonscientific. It may eventuelle become science, when - and only when - there is a rational explanation as to how this entity interacts with the physical world.
That depends on what you call science.
You had the body of a baby and now you have the body of an adult, yet you are the same person, your family recognises you as the same person. This is a simple axiomatic truth, tell me where the irrationality is in that. It is logical to persume that you and your body are separate. Todays scientists are not trained to understand the transmigrating soul, in fact there is no university which deals with the subject, that is why it is bewildering to you. When the body dies, it is because the soul has departed from the body, but scientists believe that one day they will be able bring a body back to life, now I find that irrational.
And some quote like: "our spirit it is eternal energy", or "it is vibration" (thinking that the keywords are physical) will not do. It can easily be proven that these are just masks put on in an attempt to sound (quasi) scientific.
OK. Prove it.
*You had the body of a baby and now you have the body of an adult, yet you are the same person, your family recognises you as the same person. This is a simple axiomatic truth, tell me where the irrationality is in that. It is logical to persume that you and your body are separate. *
As did my body, my personality and mind have changed, grown into adulthood. Thus, I see no need to your logic.
As to your question to prove there is nothing scientific to the rather vague terminology used by some, and that is only an attempt to sound scentific, I will have to come back on that. I have something else to do at the moment.
regards,
Merlijn
As did my body, my personality and mind have changed, grown into adulthood. Thus, I see no need to your logic.
As to your question to prove there is nothing scientific to the rather vague terminology used by some, and that is only an attempt to sound scentific, I will have to come back on that. I have something else to do at the moment.
regards,
Merlijn
Jan,
Materialism: a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort to be more important than spiritual values.
Ha ha. No you are way off. There are multiple definitions for the word ‘materialism’, and the one you have selected has nothing to do with dualism or the current topic. Your choice describes a character trait whereas we are discussing the philosophy of Materialism whose simplistic dictionary definition would look more like A theory that everything can be explained as being or coming from matter.
Hope that helps.
Cris
Materialism: a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort to be more important than spiritual values.
Ha ha. No you are way off. There are multiple definitions for the word ‘materialism’, and the one you have selected has nothing to do with dualism or the current topic. Your choice describes a character trait whereas we are discussing the philosophy of Materialism whose simplistic dictionary definition would look more like A theory that everything can be explained as being or coming from matter.
Hope that helps.
Cris
Merlijn,
I have debated deism here before and am aware of its significant differences to other religions. It has in effect numerous similarities with atheism. It is also significantly anti-Christian, and that is usually a good thing. You may have noticed that I excluded deism from my sweeping statements concerning ALL religions.
I am reminded that nearly all the founding fathers of the USA were deists and they had significant distaste for Christianity. I am sure they would be very disturbed to see how Christianity has become a dominant religion in the USA and certainly unhappy about an openly Christian president.
But I had not considered deists as materialists – oh well – I don’t mind being wrong sometimes.
Cris
I have debated deism here before and am aware of its significant differences to other religions. It has in effect numerous similarities with atheism. It is also significantly anti-Christian, and that is usually a good thing. You may have noticed that I excluded deism from my sweeping statements concerning ALL religions.
I am reminded that nearly all the founding fathers of the USA were deists and they had significant distaste for Christianity. I am sure they would be very disturbed to see how Christianity has become a dominant religion in the USA and certainly unhappy about an openly Christian president.
But I had not considered deists as materialists – oh well – I don’t mind being wrong sometimes.
Cris
according to my Webster's
deism (2) The belief that God created the world and set it in motion, subject to natural laws, but takes no interest in it.
That is not exactly what I believe in, but it is close enough.
I got a headache now, so I will not write a lengthy post. I am sorry. The key to my 'deism' is that I am strongly convinced of the universality (absolutism) of natural and ethical laws. More or less in a Platonic way.
To me the only reasonable criticism to this is: "why do you call the set of absolute truths 'God'?"
My answer: "I do not any specific reason for that other than it feels appropriate to express my awe."
Merlijn
deism (2) The belief that God created the world and set it in motion, subject to natural laws, but takes no interest in it.
That is not exactly what I believe in, but it is close enough.
I got a headache now, so I will not write a lengthy post. I am sorry. The key to my 'deism' is that I am strongly convinced of the universality (absolutism) of natural and ethical laws. More or less in a Platonic way.
To me the only reasonable criticism to this is: "why do you call the set of absolute truths 'God'?"
My answer: "I do not any specific reason for that other than it feels appropriate to express my awe."
Merlijn
Re: I think...
*Originally posted by Bebelina
That atheists are BOOORING!!! *
Stands to reason.
They'd reject you as messiah, too.
*Originally posted by Jan Ardena
It is not religion, this is natural phenomena, it occurs whether you believe in God or not.*
Reincarnation, while natural enough where demons are concerned, has nothing to do with people.
Demonization also occurs whether you believe in it or not.
*This was told by God to his devotee on a battlefield, after His devotee refused to take part in the battle.*
Which God?
Of course, that context is too small.
The circumstances I was referring to is the book that it is found in.
Presumably, the God you are referring to is the same as the one who said...
The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
(BG, 11.32)
That particular god might be falsehood, also.
*Nonesense.*
Based on what? This?
O Arjuna, entering the wombs of demons birth after birth, the deluded ones sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me.
(BG, 16.20)
Aside from the issue of who's entering whom, that sounds like a pretty good description of what is going on.
*That the spirit-soul and the body are different.*
Well, sure.
The problem is with that "spirit-soul" thing.
Everyone else recognizes that they are two different words.
*Originally posted by Bebelina
Sorry, just want to start a fight.*
Debate is so pointless if everyone agrees, isn't it?
*What is the difference between an atheist and a materialist?*
Atheists deny God and materialists deny anything non-material.
Materialists have no sense of humor, because humor is non-material.
*Originally posted by Merlijn
I am living proof that there must be a difference between atheism and materialism since I am not an atheist, but I am a materialist. *
You believe in a material God?
Who would that be?
*Originally posted by Godless
atheist live free of sin, therefore we have more fun, athiest live within the realms of reality as it is, not as we wish it were, athiest have very articulate minds, we like to nick pick every topic. *
Atheists live lives of nothing but sin.
You think it is otherwise the same way fish think of water.
More fun?
Atheists are the most boring, funless people I've ever met.
*don't you believe in the afterlife?, after all, you'r a thiest, you believe you will go to heaven, what do you call that?*
No, I don't.
Death is death.
What I believe is that I will be resurrected, i.e. brought back to life, as opposed to just relocating somewhere else.
I'd only be in heaven while there is no earth to stand on.
After that, I'd be on earth.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:1-3, KJV).
*Originally posted by Cris
Most atheists, once they properly understand these important distinctions, take care to assert their disbelief in the theist’s claim (because there is no factual support), rather than come outright and state there is no god, since that would also be a claim that is also difficult to support. *
Your claim is also rather difficult to support.
a·the·ism
n.
1.a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.
ag·nos·ti·cism
n.
1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.*
The dictionary seems to disagree with you.
What support would you have for your claim that atheism is, in fact, agnosticism?
*The problem of believing something without any facts is that the belief could be totally wrong.*
Based on the facts I located in a dictionary, your belief appears to be wrong.
*This makes sense when you realize that the underlying basis of every religion is to find a way to cheat death.*
Death cheats us out of life.
Christ is the way to get it back.
*Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Todays scientists are not trained to understand the transmigrating soul, in fact there is no university which deals with the subject, that is why it is bewildering to you.*
It is bewildering and there are no universities dealing with it because there are no transmigrating souls.
You may be thinking of a spirit.
However, that would be bewildering to you because you have a way of combining spirit and soul, thus, "spirit-soul."
*When the body dies, it is because the soul has departed from the body*
Actually, it is because the spirit has left the body.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, ...
(James 2:26, KJV).
*Originally posted by Bebelina
That atheists are BOOORING!!! *
Stands to reason.
They'd reject you as messiah, too.
*Originally posted by Jan Ardena
It is not religion, this is natural phenomena, it occurs whether you believe in God or not.*
Reincarnation, while natural enough where demons are concerned, has nothing to do with people.
Demonization also occurs whether you believe in it or not.
*This was told by God to his devotee on a battlefield, after His devotee refused to take part in the battle.*
Which God?
Of course, that context is too small.
The circumstances I was referring to is the book that it is found in.
Presumably, the God you are referring to is the same as the one who said...
The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
(BG, 11.32)
That particular god might be falsehood, also.
*Nonesense.*
Based on what? This?
O Arjuna, entering the wombs of demons birth after birth, the deluded ones sink to the lowest hell without ever attaining Me.
(BG, 16.20)
Aside from the issue of who's entering whom, that sounds like a pretty good description of what is going on.
*That the spirit-soul and the body are different.*
Well, sure.
The problem is with that "spirit-soul" thing.
Everyone else recognizes that they are two different words.
*Originally posted by Bebelina
Sorry, just want to start a fight.*
Debate is so pointless if everyone agrees, isn't it?
*What is the difference between an atheist and a materialist?*
Atheists deny God and materialists deny anything non-material.
Materialists have no sense of humor, because humor is non-material.
*Originally posted by Merlijn
I am living proof that there must be a difference between atheism and materialism since I am not an atheist, but I am a materialist. *
You believe in a material God?
Who would that be?
*Originally posted by Godless
atheist live free of sin, therefore we have more fun, athiest live within the realms of reality as it is, not as we wish it were, athiest have very articulate minds, we like to nick pick every topic. *
Atheists live lives of nothing but sin.
You think it is otherwise the same way fish think of water.
More fun?
Atheists are the most boring, funless people I've ever met.
*don't you believe in the afterlife?, after all, you'r a thiest, you believe you will go to heaven, what do you call that?*
No, I don't.
Death is death.
What I believe is that I will be resurrected, i.e. brought back to life, as opposed to just relocating somewhere else.
I'd only be in heaven while there is no earth to stand on.
After that, I'd be on earth.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:1-3, KJV).
*Originally posted by Cris
Most atheists, once they properly understand these important distinctions, take care to assert their disbelief in the theist’s claim (because there is no factual support), rather than come outright and state there is no god, since that would also be a claim that is also difficult to support. *
Your claim is also rather difficult to support.
a·the·ism
n.
1.a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.
ag·nos·ti·cism
n.
1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.*
The dictionary seems to disagree with you.
What support would you have for your claim that atheism is, in fact, agnosticism?
*The problem of believing something without any facts is that the belief could be totally wrong.*
Based on the facts I located in a dictionary, your belief appears to be wrong.
*This makes sense when you realize that the underlying basis of every religion is to find a way to cheat death.*
Death cheats us out of life.
Christ is the way to get it back.
*Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Todays scientists are not trained to understand the transmigrating soul, in fact there is no university which deals with the subject, that is why it is bewildering to you.*
It is bewildering and there are no universities dealing with it because there are no transmigrating souls.
You may be thinking of a spirit.
However, that would be bewildering to you because you have a way of combining spirit and soul, thus, "spirit-soul."
*When the body dies, it is because the soul has departed from the body*
Actually, it is because the spirit has left the body.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, ...
(James 2:26, KJV).
Re-explaining atheism
As Chris simply put it, an atheist denies the claims of theists that claim the existence of a supreme being.
Why is that? There is no way a theist can prove that an extraterestial, supreme, supernatural, omnipotent, omniscient, omnivolent, being exists.
All theists base their believes in ancient books, mostly written by historical events in cultures lives, they take these analogies and base them in our present times. Ridiculous if you were to apply logic, and reason.
As for materialis, I've not thought of this very much, I'm somewhat in the sence that when I do die, I will no longer exist, that my conscience will no longer function, that my spirit will no longer exist, that I in the true meaning of the word "will be dead!."
Quote, Tony1; Atheists live lives of nothing but sin.
You think it is otherwise the same way fish think of water.
We are not fish, and when you were born, free of this misquided life of yours, you were an athiest, your mind a tabula raza, empty of the misquided knowledge you have obtained, you were tought that you were born of sin, cause it is sin in the eyes of your god to procreate, it is sin of your god to enjoy basically every human nature of procreation, and loving an individual, weather it be with same sex or opposite sex. It sin that you have aquired knowledge of good and evil, it is sin that you have to use logic & reason in order to build a society, it sin to plainly live as we do!.
Quote 2
More fun?
Atheists are the most boring, funless people I've ever met.
Ah well I can't say the same for all thiests, and I do believe you can't say the same of all atheists, too bad you've only met the boring ones, but here your only rationalizing do you really know these people? I doubt that you hang around them all the time, cause it sounds to me you have the bible under your arms at all times, so they run from you, this is perhaps why you think they are boring, cause they don't want to listen to your nonsence!.
Quote 3
The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
(BG, 11.32)
What a benevolent god this god of yours? It sounds more like a devil than a god, it sounds more of threats and death, than of life and love!.
Quote 4;
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:1-3, KJV).
Have fun waiting for eternity, or until your unfortunate death, for once you die, there will be nothing of you anymore, you will not exist in this earth, you will not exist period!. How unfortunate it is to live just to die, how unfortunate it is to know that each day we live we'r just one day closer to the end of our lives, good for you that you find comfort in these ancient scriptures of nonsence and false promises, good for you that you live your life not facing reality nor reason, without logic, and only living as you do, in the false misquided view of these ancient superflous religions.
I want to deeply thank you Tony1, for the message the other day of the death of that man, it is hard for me, but I do have a dirrection which is objective reality!, I'm hurt for his children who he leaves behind, I tell you one thing I don't discuss my religious views with them, that is the promise that I made thier father before he died, and I will keep my promise, however when they grow up it will be up to them.
As Chris simply put it, an atheist denies the claims of theists that claim the existence of a supreme being.
Why is that? There is no way a theist can prove that an extraterestial, supreme, supernatural, omnipotent, omniscient, omnivolent, being exists.
All theists base their believes in ancient books, mostly written by historical events in cultures lives, they take these analogies and base them in our present times. Ridiculous if you were to apply logic, and reason.
As for materialis, I've not thought of this very much, I'm somewhat in the sence that when I do die, I will no longer exist, that my conscience will no longer function, that my spirit will no longer exist, that I in the true meaning of the word "will be dead!."
Quote, Tony1; Atheists live lives of nothing but sin.
You think it is otherwise the same way fish think of water.
We are not fish, and when you were born, free of this misquided life of yours, you were an athiest, your mind a tabula raza, empty of the misquided knowledge you have obtained, you were tought that you were born of sin, cause it is sin in the eyes of your god to procreate, it is sin of your god to enjoy basically every human nature of procreation, and loving an individual, weather it be with same sex or opposite sex. It sin that you have aquired knowledge of good and evil, it is sin that you have to use logic & reason in order to build a society, it sin to plainly live as we do!.
Quote 2
More fun?
Atheists are the most boring, funless people I've ever met.
Ah well I can't say the same for all thiests, and I do believe you can't say the same of all atheists, too bad you've only met the boring ones, but here your only rationalizing do you really know these people? I doubt that you hang around them all the time, cause it sounds to me you have the bible under your arms at all times, so they run from you, this is perhaps why you think they are boring, cause they don't want to listen to your nonsence!.
Quote 3
The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
(BG, 11.32)
What a benevolent god this god of yours? It sounds more like a devil than a god, it sounds more of threats and death, than of life and love!.
Quote 4;
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:1-3, KJV).
Have fun waiting for eternity, or until your unfortunate death, for once you die, there will be nothing of you anymore, you will not exist in this earth, you will not exist period!. How unfortunate it is to live just to die, how unfortunate it is to know that each day we live we'r just one day closer to the end of our lives, good for you that you find comfort in these ancient scriptures of nonsence and false promises, good for you that you live your life not facing reality nor reason, without logic, and only living as you do, in the false misquided view of these ancient superflous religions.
I want to deeply thank you Tony1, for the message the other day of the death of that man, it is hard for me, but I do have a dirrection which is objective reality!, I'm hurt for his children who he leaves behind, I tell you one thing I don't discuss my religious views with them, that is the promise that I made thier father before he died, and I will keep my promise, however when they grow up it will be up to them.
Re: Re-re-re-re-re-explaining atheism
*Originally posted by Godless
As Chris simply put it, an atheist denies the claims of theists that claim the existence of a supreme being.*
As the dictionary puts it, atheism denies the existence of God.
It also describes agnosticism as denying claims, etc.
*Why is that? There is no way a theist can prove that an extraterestial, supreme, supernatural, omnipotent, omniscient, omnivolent, being exists.*
Extraterrestrial?
Omnivolent?
Why would we even try?
*As for materialis, I've not thought of this very much, I'm somewhat in the sence that when I do die, I will no longer exist, that my conscience will no longer function, that my spirit will no longer exist, that I in the true meaning of the word "will be dead!."*
You'd be pretty close to being right.
But doesn't it bother you that you are practically quoting the Bible?
*We are not fish*
No shit.
Well, the evolutionists are trying to tell you that you are, although a few generations removed.
*your mind a tabula raza,*
I think atheists are still like that.
Don't forget you were also crapping in your pants, too.
Do you still do that?
*you were tought that you were born of sin, cause it is sin in the eyes of your god to procreate,*
I wasn't taught any of that stuff.
Being raised Catholic, you probably were, though.
*procreation, ..., weather it be with same sex or opposite sex.*
What kind of procreation do you plan on having with same-sex individuals?
You should check out some stuff about the birds and the bees.
*Ah well I can't say the same for all thiests, and I do believe you can't say the same of all atheists, too bad you've only met the boring ones, but here your only rationalizing do you really know these people?*
Well, I've been working with some of them on a daily basis for 15 years.
*The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
(BG, 11.32)
What a benevolent god this god of yours? It sounds more like a devil than a god, it sounds more of threats and death, than of life and love!.*
I'm glad you said that.
That quote isn't from the Bible.
It's from the Bhagavad Gita, and I happen to agree with you.
*Have fun waiting for eternity, or until your unfortunate death, for once you die, there will be nothing of you anymore, you will not exist in this earth, you will not exist period!*
I'm not waiting.
*How unfortunate it is to live just to die, how unfortunate it is to know that each day we live we'r just one day closer to the end of our lives,*
And you avoid this, how?
*I want to deeply thank you Tony1, for the message the other day of the death of that man*
You're welcome.
*it is hard for me, but I do have a dirrection which is objective reality!*
Objective reality is that today you are one day closer to death.
It really doesn't have to be that hard.
*Originally posted by Godless
As Chris simply put it, an atheist denies the claims of theists that claim the existence of a supreme being.*
As the dictionary puts it, atheism denies the existence of God.
It also describes agnosticism as denying claims, etc.
*Why is that? There is no way a theist can prove that an extraterestial, supreme, supernatural, omnipotent, omniscient, omnivolent, being exists.*
Extraterrestrial?
Omnivolent?
Why would we even try?
*As for materialis, I've not thought of this very much, I'm somewhat in the sence that when I do die, I will no longer exist, that my conscience will no longer function, that my spirit will no longer exist, that I in the true meaning of the word "will be dead!."*
You'd be pretty close to being right.
But doesn't it bother you that you are practically quoting the Bible?
*We are not fish*
No shit.
Well, the evolutionists are trying to tell you that you are, although a few generations removed.
*your mind a tabula raza,*
I think atheists are still like that.
Don't forget you were also crapping in your pants, too.
Do you still do that?
*you were tought that you were born of sin, cause it is sin in the eyes of your god to procreate,*
I wasn't taught any of that stuff.
Being raised Catholic, you probably were, though.
*procreation, ..., weather it be with same sex or opposite sex.*
What kind of procreation do you plan on having with same-sex individuals?
You should check out some stuff about the birds and the bees.
*Ah well I can't say the same for all thiests, and I do believe you can't say the same of all atheists, too bad you've only met the boring ones, but here your only rationalizing do you really know these people?*
Well, I've been working with some of them on a daily basis for 15 years.
*The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
(BG, 11.32)
What a benevolent god this god of yours? It sounds more like a devil than a god, it sounds more of threats and death, than of life and love!.*
I'm glad you said that.
That quote isn't from the Bible.
It's from the Bhagavad Gita, and I happen to agree with you.
*Have fun waiting for eternity, or until your unfortunate death, for once you die, there will be nothing of you anymore, you will not exist in this earth, you will not exist period!*
I'm not waiting.
*How unfortunate it is to live just to die, how unfortunate it is to know that each day we live we'r just one day closer to the end of our lives,*
And you avoid this, how?
*I want to deeply thank you Tony1, for the message the other day of the death of that man*
You're welcome.
*it is hard for me, but I do have a dirrection which is objective reality!*
Objective reality is that today you are one day closer to death.
It really doesn't have to be that hard.
Tony1 thank you for being a friend!.
And atheist claim that theist are not fun! how wrong are they.
quote Tony1;1
"You'd be pretty close to being right.
But doesn't it bother you that you are practically quoting the Bible?"
Nope, there are some truths and honest objectivity to these verses at times, however it is a story of ancient hebrew life, so I take it at that value, simply an ancient story.
2;No shit.
Well, the evolutionists are trying to tell you that you are, although a few generations removed.
Are you claiming that you come from mud? or that you don't believe in evolution?.
3;I think atheists are still like that.
Don't forget you were also crapping in your pants, too.
Do you still do that?
I can't speak for all but I've got to agree with you on that one!, however if we were to say that theists are basically all the same, wouldn't I be wrong? of course I would be It is called rationalizing
I try to be objective, therefore I don't rationalize that all theists are air heads!.
4;What kind of procreation do you plan on having with same-sex individuals?
You should check out some stuff about the birds and the bees.
Here I was trying to pin-point the religious views on gay lives, which is one of a negative reaction.
Sorry I've got to go Tony, we will continue this some other day!.
meanwhile, have fun!
And atheist claim that theist are not fun! how wrong are they.
quote Tony1;1
"You'd be pretty close to being right.
But doesn't it bother you that you are practically quoting the Bible?"
Nope, there are some truths and honest objectivity to these verses at times, however it is a story of ancient hebrew life, so I take it at that value, simply an ancient story.
2;No shit.
Well, the evolutionists are trying to tell you that you are, although a few generations removed.
Are you claiming that you come from mud? or that you don't believe in evolution?.
3;I think atheists are still like that.
Don't forget you were also crapping in your pants, too.
Do you still do that?
I can't speak for all but I've got to agree with you on that one!, however if we were to say that theists are basically all the same, wouldn't I be wrong? of course I would be It is called rationalizing
I try to be objective, therefore I don't rationalize that all theists are air heads!.
4;What kind of procreation do you plan on having with same-sex individuals?
You should check out some stuff about the birds and the bees.
Here I was trying to pin-point the religious views on gay lives, which is one of a negative reaction.
Sorry I've got to go Tony, we will continue this some other day!.
meanwhile, have fun!