Atheist Realism?

[Enmos]

Call it standard or not, it is ok for me.
I don't even know what would mean standard here for you.


I am a theist that believe in an eternal conscious reality that I call god

if you believe that reality was not eternal, then you are a special kind of realist, but I would ask you: what was before reality ?
if you believe that there was there was nothing, then how can something come from nothing?

So reality created God ? You are not making any sense man..

 

[ronan]

So where did you god come from ?

eternal mean that it was always there, no need to come from somewhere

 

[ronan]

I am an atheist who believes in an uncosscious eternal reality. Why is your notion right and mine wrong ?

Mine is compatible with the argument from Chalmers, Nagel, Jackson while your is not because you have to prove that consciousness can come from something that is unconscious

 

[ronan]

With 'conventional god' I meant a personified god, in stead of just regarding nature as god or godlike.

You should open your horizon, there are many kind of god, one of them is that reality is god.

 

[Enmos]

Mine is compatible with the argument from Chalmers, Nagel, Jackson while your is not because you have to prove that consciousness can come from something that is unconscious

While you only have to prove that inanimate matter is conscious, good luck with that.
Besides, consciousness is complex. If it always was, it never developed.
Explain how something as complex as consciousness can be without any development.

 

[ronan]

Rather big and disturbing assumption there..

Did you experience unconsciousness ?
How then you can say that it exist?
Me I don't make this assumption and if you look at argument from Chalmers, JAckson and Nagel, you will find that it is impossible to explain consciousness with an unconscious reality

So before saying it is an assumption you should look at yours.

 

[ronan]

While you only have to prove that inanimate matter is conscious, good luck with that.

I don't have to prove that because I am not talking about matter but about reality that is beyond our senses and again the assumption is about unconsciousness not about consciousness because we cannot experience unconsciousness: it is then you who assume that unconsciousness exist

Besides, consciousness is complex. If it always was, it never developed.
Explain how something as complex as consciousness can be without any development.

consciousness is complex, why you say that? consciousness is simply there, what is compelx is brain processes.

 

[ronan]

So reality created God ? You are not making any sense man..

No reality IS god

 

[Enmos]

I don't have to prove that because I am not talking about matter but about reality that is beyond our senses and again the assumption is about unconsciousness not about consciousness because we cannot experience unconsciousness: it is then you who assume that unconsciousness exist

You mean in the same way we can not experiences yellowness ?
So yellow doesn't exist.. ok.

consciousness is complex, why you say that? consciousness is simply there,

Then WHAT IS consciousness.. ? If it's so simple surely you can explain it to me.

what is compelx is brain processes.

Right.. any chance consciousness comes from there ?

 

[Enmos]

No reality IS god

This reality ?

Reality
That which is real; an actual existence; that which is not imagination, fiction, or pretense; that which has objective existence, and is not merely an idea.

The term reality, in its widest sense, includes everything that is, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

 

[Enmos]

Ronan, how do you measure the consciousness of a rock ?
Show me that a rock has consciousness.

 

[ronan]

You mean in the same way we can not experiences yellowness ?
So yellow doesn't exist.. ok.

Yellow is an experience, unconsciousness is not by definition, I am not talking of the feeling of waking up from a so called "unconscious" state

We don't feel (we are not conscious of anything) when we are unconscious it is not something we can experience! we only assume that we were "unconscious" because the experience of a clock tell us that time jumped

Then WHAT IS consciousness.. ? If it's so simple surely you can explain it to me.

What is consciousness, good question I think it is inefable.
I cannot describe it but I know that you know what I am talking about

Right.. any chance consciousness comes from there ?

No!
if you believe otherwise, prove it!
Look up "qualia" and Chalmers, Nagel (What is it like to be a bat), Jackson (What mary did not know)

 

[ronan]

This reality ?

Reality
That which is real; an actual existence; that which is not imagination, fiction, or pretense; that which has objective existence, and is not merely an idea.

The term reality, in its widest sense, includes everything that is, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

Yes, but I would add that reality is what is behind our perception from which we have only a subjective view.

 

[ronan]

Ronan, how do you measure the consciousness of a rock ?
Show me that a rock has consciousness.

I don't have to show that rock has consciousness because my point is that reality is conscious because else we could not have consciousness.
It is you who have to prove that unconscious state can exist or that unconscious reality can give rise to consciousness.
You have two possibilities

 

[Enmos]

Yellow is an experience, unconsciousness is not by definition, I am not talking of the feeling of waking up from a so called "unconscious" state

I said 'yellowness', we cannot experience yellowness can we ? Therefore, according to you, yellow does not exist.

What is consciousness, good question I think it is inefable.
I cannot describe it but I know that you know what I am talking about

Apparently you have your own weird definition of consciousness. One which, conveniently, is ineffable.

No!
if you believe otherwise, prove it!
Look up "qualia" and Chalmers, Nagel (What is it like to be a bat), Jackson (What mary did not know)

Wtf is it with you and those guys ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Other_approaches

 

[Enmos]

Yes, but I would add that reality is what is behind our perception from which we have only a subjective view.

Isn't that what it says ?

Or do you emphasize it for some obscure reason ?

 

[Enmos]

I don't have to show that rock has consciousness because my point is that reality is conscious because else we could not have consciousness.
It is you who have to prove that unconscious state can exist or that unconscious reality can give rise to consciousness.
You have two possibilities

This is getting weirder and weirder..
Please tell me you are just playing some elaborate joke on us.
Look, you are making positive claims here.. you better at least come up with some evidence to back them up.

 

[ronan]

I said 'yellowness', we cannot experience yellowness can we ? Therefore, according to you, yellow does not exist.

I wanted to say yellowness in fact it is what we experience : yelowness of the chair, of a ball...

Apparently you have your own weird definition of consciousness. One which, conveniently, is ineffable.

I have no definition, I said it is inefable
please give yours

Wtf is it with you and those guys ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Other_approaches

What ?

 

[ronan]

Isn't that what it says ?

Or do you emphasize it for some obscure reason ?

I wanted to emphasize because for me it was not clear

 

[ronan]

This is getting weirder and weirder..
Please tell me you are just playing some elaborate joke on us.
Look, you are making positive claims here.. you better at least come up with some evidence to back them up.

I told you the evidence is consciousness
while you do not have any evidence of unconsciousness !

It is you who have to prove that unconscious reality can give rise to consciousness
or that unconscious state can be experienced (which is self-contradictory)