Arguments for and against the existence of God

Arguments for and against the existence of God.


From a scientific pov there can be no logical disputation of a creator. The only position is its provability, not its science. But the factor of provability effects its antithesis more so. Evolution is not a factor here - it is merely a mid point emerging only after the fact of something already existing [created] - evolution only kicks in if there is something to evolutionise!
 
The earlier facts presented by me regarding human creation and human chromosome number are a small portion of what can be found in the Holy Quran regarding this topic:

I have already provided a link to "the endless miracle of the first chapter of the Holy Quran" - The letters of this chapter represented by different letter-value systems and values put side by side provide again and again huge numbers that are divisible perfectly by the number 19 (which is a prime number). All of them. We are talking about 6 huge numbers (+130 digits) based on different letter-value systems representing the first chapter. The letter-value systems are based on the work of independent researchers and they are derived from the names of God in the Quran, Arabic language roots, Quran mysterious initials and by other types of systematic text analyses. The 6 huge numbers concern the first chapter of the Holy Quran without the opening verse (as is permitted by certain recitations of the Holy Quran such as that of Qaloon of Nafia'). The opening verse is: "In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful".

There are 19 A's in the first chapter (without opening verse) i.e. the letter Alef appears 19 times in this chapter. Alef is a special letter since it is the first letter in the word Allah and it is the first revealed letter of the Holy Quran (see chap 96 verse one). Please pay attention to the fact that this chapter which is structured undoubtedly, at a deep mathematical level, by the prime number 19 has exactly 19 Alef letters!

Amazingly there are 199 Alef letters in chapter 76 "Human" (ALANSN). The number 199 is a prime number. In fact, it is the 46[sup]th[/sup] prime number in universe. As pointed earlier, human beings have 46 chromosomes (while the red deer has as many as 68 chromosomes, for instance).

In addition, there are 199 Arabic letters in total before the first occurrence of the word Allah (God) in this chapter. Of these 199 letters there are 46 Alef's and 23 Noon's. Alef is the first letter of the word "Human" (ALANSN) and Noon is the last letter of this word.

Prime and composite numbers are central to Quran's mathematical challenge. They are building blocks of the letters, words and verses of the Quran. This is supported by numerous findings and it is speculated by some researchers that these two number types are what God refers to as Shafia' and Witr (chapter 89 verse 3).

There is much than can be said in response to information requests regarding scientific facts in the Quran (such as that regarding the roundness of the earth). I will, with God's will, answer as much as I can later.

I would like to conclude with quoting the Holy Quran:

"(46) SAY: One thing in sooth do I advise you: - that ye stand up before God two and two, or singly, and then reflect that in your fellow citizen (i.e. Muhammad pbuh) is no djinn: he is no other than your warner before a severe punishment. (47) SAY: I ask not any wage from you: keep it for yourselves: my wage is from God alone. And He is witness over all things!" - Holy Quran - Sheba 34:46-47

God says also:

"(35) Were they created by nothing? or were they the creators of themselves? (36) Created they the Heavens and Earth? Nay, rather, they have no firm belief[sup](a)[/sup]. (37) Hold they thy Lord's treasures? Bear they the rule supreme?" - Holy Quran - The Mount 52:35-37

[sup](a)[/sup] comment regarding the revealed text by translator: They obviously did not create the wonders of the starry heavens and the fruitful globe of the earth. But they can assign no definite cause to explain it, as they have no firm belief on the subject themselves.

An excel file with Quran statistics can be found here:
http://www.alargam.com/alquran/count.htm
 
Yosef said:
The earlier facts presented by me regarding human creation and human chromosome number are a small portion of what can be found in the Holy Quran regarding this topic:

I have already provided a link to "the endless miracle of the first chapter of the Holy Quran" - The letters of this chapter represented by different letter-value systems and values put side by side provide again and again huge numbers that are divisible perfectly by the number 19 (which is a prime number). All of them. We are talking about 6 huge numbers (+130 digits) based on different letter-value systems representing the first chapter. The letter-value systems are based on the work of independent researchers and they are derived from the names of God in the Quran, Arabic language roots, Quran mysterious initials and by other types of systematic text analyses. The 6 huge numbers concern the first chapter of the Holy Quran without the opening verse (as is permitted by certain recitations of the Holy Quran such as that of Qaloon of Nafia'). The opening verse is: "In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful".

There are 19 A's in the first chapter (without opening verse) i.e. the letter Alef appears 19 times in this chapter. Alef is a special letter since it is the first letter in the word Allah and it is the first revealed letter of the Holy Quran (see chap 96 verse one). Please pay attention to the fact that this chapter which is structured undoubtedly, at a deep mathematical level, by the prime number 19 has exactly 19 Alef letters!

Amazingly there are 199 Alef letters in chapter 76 "Human" (ALANSN). The number 199 is a prime number. In fact, it is the 46[sup]th[/sup] prime number in universe. As pointed earlier, human beings have 46 chromosomes (while the red deer has as many as 68 chromosomes, for instance).

In addition, there are 199 Arabic letters in total before the first occurrence of the word Allah (God) in this chapter. Of these 199 letters there are 46 Alef's and 23 Noon's. Alef is the first letter of the word "Human" (ALANSN) and Noon is the last letter of this word.

Prime and composite numbers are central to Quran's mathematical challenge. They are building blocks of the letters, words and verses of the Quran. This is supported by numerous findings and it is speculated by some researchers that these two number types are what God refers to as Shafia' and Witr (chapter 89 verse 3).

There is much than can be said in response to information requests regarding scientific facts in the Quran (such as that regarding the roundness of the earth). I will, with God's will, answer as much as I can later.

I would like to conclude with quoting the Holy Quran:

"(46) SAY: One thing in sooth do I advise you: - that ye stand up before God two and two, or singly, and then reflect that in your fellow citizen (i.e. Muhammad pbuh) is no djinn: he is no other than your warner before a severe punishment. (47) SAY: I ask not any wage from you: keep it for yourselves: my wage is from God alone. And He is witness over all things!" - Holy Quran - Sheba 34:46-47

God says also:

"(35) Were they created by nothing? or were they the creators of themselves? (36) Created they the Heavens and Earth? Nay, rather, they have no firm belief[sup](a)[/sup]. (37) Hold they thy Lord's treasures? Bear they the rule supreme?" - Holy Quran - The Mount 52:35-37

[sup](a)[/sup] comment regarding the revealed text by translator: They obviously did not create the wonders of the starry heavens and the fruitful globe of the earth. But they can assign no definite cause to explain it, as they have no firm belief on the subject themselves.

An excel file with Quran statistics can be found here:
http://www.alargam.com/alquran/count.htm
Click to expand...

Fascinating, even Isaac Newton spent most of his time and effort in solving the mysterious codes that make up scripture

Where can I down load a good interpretation of the Holy Quran, in English?
 
Alan McDougall said:
Fascinating, even Isaac Newton spent most of his time and effort in solving the mysterious codes that make up scripture

Where can I down load a good interpretation of the Holy Quran, in English?
Click to expand...

There are many interesting phenomena in the text and I believe that they are endless. They will continue to manifest themselves until the day of Judgment. Several places in the Quran does God ask humans to produce something similar to the Quran. He says:

"(23) And if ye be in doubt as to that which we have sent down to our servant, then produce a Sura [sup](a)[/sup] like it, and summon your witnesses, beside God, if ye are men of truth: (24) But if ye do it not, and ye shall surely do it not, then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for misbelievers." (25) But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy)[sup](b)[/sup]; and they abide therein (forever). (26) Verily God is not ashamed to set forth as well the instance of a gnat as of any nobler object: for as to those who have believed, they know it to be the truth from their Lord; but as to the unbelievers, they will say, "What meaneth God by this comparison?" Many will He mislead by such parables and many guide: but none will He mislead thereby except the wicked, (27) those who break their covenant with God after it has been confirmed, who sever the bonds that God has commanded to be joined, who spread corruption on the earth- these are the losers. (28) How can ye withhold faith from God? Ye were dead and He gave you life; next He will cause you to die; next He will restore you to life: next shall ye return to Him!" Holy Quran - The Heifer[sup](c)[/sup] 2:23-28.

[sup](a)[/sup] Chapter
[sup](b)[/sup] No menstruation, no need to go to toilet etc..
[sup](c)[/sup] Named after the heifer that the Israelites were ordered to sacrifice. Story starts in verse 67 of this chapter. The story can be found also in Old Testament - Numbers:19

Translations to English and to many other languages can be found on this site:

http://www.al-quran.info/

Make sure to click on the "Chapter" tab to view whole chapters. Translations can be selected under the menu named "Text". The default translation is that by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, but I find that the one by Rodwell (1861) is fine too. It is indicated in the list which translations are widely accepted and which have commentary.

I firmly believe that there is much that can be learned in Scripture. As an Arabic language speaker I have access to around 70 different interpretation works of the Holy Quran. Some single verses are discussed over several pages in those translations. I will happily learn more as we discuss here.

Peace and God's care be upon you
 
Ron Hubbard (pbuh) has some doozies 'manifestations' as well. Truly, a remarkable Prophet of Xenu.
 
I think that the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran can be fully appreciated when considering facts together. The density of the phenomena is quite interesting. I have already mentioned that the letter Alef is central. It appears 199 times in chapter "Human". The number 199 is the 46[sup]th[/sup] prime number in universe. Human beings have 46 chromosomes arranged in 23 pairs.

Remarkably enough, the 46[sup]th[/sup] letter in this chapter is an Alef. In fact it is the 9[sup]th[/sup] Alef from chapter's start (the number 23, which is equal to human chromosome pair number, is the 9[sup]th[/sup] prime number in universe). This same letter is the last letter of the word "Created" (Khlqna) in the phrase "We created man from.." (verse 2). At the same time, the 46[sup]th[/sup] letter from back (chapter's end) in this chapter is also an Alef. In fact it is the 9[sup]th[/sup] Alef from chapter's end. This same letter is the last letter of the word "All-Knowing" (A'lima) in the phrase "Allah is ever Knowing and Wise" (verse 30).

This is found in chapter "Human", the chapter that starts with direct talk about human creation and that is the only chapter in the whole Quran that consists of 31 verses. Creation story in Genesis 1:1 consist also of 31 verses. Number 46 is the 31[sup]st[/sup] composite number in universe. Allah is the All-knowing Creator.
 
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The density of bullshit is precisely correlated to the number of retards looking for justification of their faith (belief in the absence of evidence).
 
IamJoseph said:
Arguments for and against the existence of God.


From a scientific pov there can be no logical disputation of a creator. The only position is its provability, not its science. But the factor of provability effects its antithesis more so. Evolution is not a factor here - it is merely a mid point emerging only after the fact of something already existing [created] - evolution only kicks in if there is something to evolutionise!
Click to expand...

But still there is the Cambrian period - most of the creatures we see today were put on the face of the earth in a relatively short period. This is a strong argument against evolution.

But what about these additional facts:

I have already established how the number 31 signifies human chromosome number (which is 46). Studying excel sheets shows that there are 31 verses containing the word "human being" up to a and before chapter 46 of the Holy Quran and, at the same time, there are 31 other verses containing the word "human being" after chapter 46 (to Quran's end). The truly incredible thing is that Quran's midpoint verse-wise is somewhere in chapter 26.

Furthermore, there are 23 chapters containing the word "human being" up to and before chapter 46 and 19 such ones after it. Humans have 23 chromosome pairs and number 19 is key miracle number in the revelations of the Muslim, Jewish and Christian God.

Now to believe that we evolved from some soup and that these phenomena in Scripture are nothing is odd. It's not any text. It is the most beautiful Book I have!

The evidence is around and there is much more.

peace
 
The so-called Cambrian explosion still took place gradually, just less gradually than usual. It does not contradict evolution in the slightest.
 
lightgigantic said:
are you talking about the faith of atheists who base their assertions on an absence of evidence?
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The "beliefs" of the atheists are really odd. I have read books from both camps: evolutionists and intelligent design supporters. I have read also in the Quran and the Bible. I observe creation and read about animal behavior. It is clear that God created everything. It is far more sound to believe that we originate from God rather from soup. That we cannot see God directly does not mean He does not exist.
 
Yosef said:
The "beliefs" of the atheists are really odd. I have read books from both camps: evolutionists and intelligent design supporters. I have read also in the Quran and the Bible. I observe creation and read about animal behavior. It is clear that God created everything. It is far more sound to believe that we originate from God rather from soup. That we cannot see God directly does not mean He does not exist.
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Yosef

Nice post I believe that "God and existence" are different names for the same reality. God is inscrutable to mere mortal man and it is silly for us humans to think we know exactly how god operates, within all of our majestic and beautifully organised universe
 
Alan McDougall said:
Yosef

Nice post
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No it's not - it's a terrible post - all he does is make a generic comment about atheism and then provide an unsubstantiated opinion - unless his argument is "I have read stuff and I conclude that..." without bothering to detail the actual important stuff?

He also confuses evolution with atheism (note the phrase "both camps") - as if it is impossible to be a theist who supports evolution - so good to see he views the Pope as an atheist.

He then claims soundness to the conclusion of God creating everything yet does not demonstrate the truth of the premises upon which that conclusion is based for others to be able to assess its soundness (I am doubtful he even knows what "soundness" is).

His last comment, while true, is weak: - i.e. while we might not be able to see things that do exist, we certainly can not see things that do not exist. Or does Yosef also believe in the FSM, the Celestial Teapot and the infinite other things for which there is zero evidence of their existence?


So yeah - all in all a "nice post". :rolleyes:
 
@Sarkus

Are you aware of the complexity involved in the fertilization of the egg by the sperm cell. There are several processes and enzymes needed. How could it be that such a thing evolved ?! Is it really reasonable that all those mechanisms evolved by chance (nothing) ?! Any failure at any point means no fertilized egg to start with!

I invite you all to see this:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/fearfully/fearfully-wonderfully-made

Title: Fearfully and wonderfully made - About egg fertilization by David Menton - answersingenesis.org
 
When you have a cold, you don't need to see the bacteria, you see the symptoms that result from the bacteria creating the cold to know that the bacteria is there.
 
Yosef said:
Are you aware of the complexity involved in the fertilization of the egg by the sperm cell. There are several processes and enzymes needed. How could it be that such a thing evolved ?!
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So you argue from personal incredulity. :shrug:
Is it really reasonable that all those mechanisms evolved by chance (nothing) ?! Any failure at any point means no fertilized egg to start with!
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I am reminded again of what Douglas Adams once said:
"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.' "

You seem to be arguing from the point of view of such a puddle.



If you shuffle a deck of cards and deal them out face up - you are someone who then looks at the resulting order of cards and goes "wow - there was 1 in 10^68 chance that that precise order would occur - it must be a miracle / God must have done it".
And yet it happened.
And it would happen each and every time you shuffle and deal those cards... each time an order would reveal itself that had only 1 in 10^68 chance of occurring.
Try it for yourself.

But if you look at it differently... with the order as yet unrevealed... ask yourself this question: What is the chance that a non-specific order will be revealed?

If you think we are the deliberate end-point (up to this time) then you will see our existence as evidence of God... but all you are doing is begging the question. "The aim of God's creation is to produce us... we exist... therefore God exists... therefore we are the aim of God's creation!" etc.

If you do not think we are the deliberate end-point then you will think "We exist" and that is all we can say on the matter, other than looking at the mechanisms of how we came to be.
 
Mind Over Matter said:
When you have a cold, you don't need to see the bacteria, you see the symptoms that result from the bacteria creating the cold to know that the bacteria is there.
Click to expand...
Yep - that's clearly what they thought back before the scientific discovery of bacteria in 1674. :rolleyes:
 
@Sarkus

I really cannot understand what the bad thing in having a God that created everything just right for us to live upon the earth.

I feel this to be the case. I have read many books and heard many speakers. The truth communicated in the word of God makes my heart get humble and my eyes shed tears. The language, ideas, arguments and challenges all come from the one who created Man and taught him how to speak. There is a sense of truth that cannot be matched by anything else. It is like the body testifies to His Glory. Praise the Lord.
 
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