Arguement from EVIL

Gizz-

True - you explain your belief in God, Truthseeker. I bet it's more ridiculous than why all the atheists DON'T believe in God!!

No, he was making a extradiordnary claim about faith being able to protect one from physical dangers. I was surprised to hear someone say such a thing. I have never heard a theist proclaim such a belief, so i was curious to how he came up with this idea. Next time Gizz learn to read and follow the arguements. Dont try to be fucking funny when you dont have a point cause you end up sounding like a desperate child.
 
The others will give you a set of rules and tell you a bunch of things that are not necessarily true.

This means you truthseeker! No, what am i thinking, Im talking about the infallible truthseeker,He cant be wrong, this is the person whos belief makes him beyond death!!!

You never had your children running away from you, have you? Well, God always had.

Snakelord was a real father, he was there, making his prescence known. He was not playing a game of hide and seek. That would be an example of a father that abandoned his children and moved somewhere distant without ever leaving any indication that hes still around.

No. People that tests Him are people that don't believe in Him. Without the belief, it just doesn't work. You have first to believe, then it will happen. If you put Him to test, is because you don't believe, so it won't work. If you do for real and an unbeliever see this, then you will be able to impress the opinion to others. The motives here are very important.

So he would decide to say nope ill let you suffer because im too lazy to prove to you that i exist??? Is it too hard to supply some proof when somebody is desperatly asking for help? I guess that doesnt apply to God because he seems to be a sadistic asshole. Why is it up to humans to first believe in something that provides no evidence of its existance when it is a lot easier to say "hey here i am, Im here to help you" You really are making it appear as though God loves his little egotistical mind games.
 
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Why a god like that cant exist... but why the bible isnt necesarily disproven

The problem with the belief in a God who is all good, all knowing, and all powerful is that one cannot exist with the conditions as they are: namely the existence of suffering. I know Im repeating a little here of what has already been said in prior arguments, but I think I can show something that most "Bible-believing" theists usually dont think of when attempting to rebut this argument (i say attempting because there has never once been a complete rebuttal offered to this claim.)

So why not? What is the holdup here? And if this argument cannot be defeated, does this mean the elimination of all belief in the Christian god is the only logical act? Well, i think not. Although im not a christian and kinda actually detest the crutch-like (or drug-like) normal use of it, I figured i would offer this rare insight on the subject.

The problem is the criteria of these three things::: being all powerful, all knowing, and all good. We know that providing the currently existing conditions actually exist, a god of this nature cannot exist. But see, the thing is that a god meeting each one of these criteria isnt even biblical. There's not one mention in the Bible as god as an "all good" being. In fact, in the Old Testament God seems almost wholey responsible for some evil things occuring: for example, it says that God was the the one who hardened Pharoah's heart, leading to in turn the destruction of every first born male in the Egyptian empire. Now, of course people will argue that's not what that meant, but when a view contrary to that of God's being responsible for the hardening of the heart is sheer interperetation. Furthermore, God calls himself "a jealous God" in another passage.

So is God an evil God? Well, I think that's a question that can only be answered through personal experience. However, that's still assuming that the god of the Bible is the one God, or atleast one of them. My mother would say that God isnt an evil god, and that he still is a God of good, but not as we (humans) woud think of good. I think that's just an easy way out. My personal belief is that God is a woman, a fan of loud guitars, and that I'm her favorite. But that's just me.

Truthseeker::: I figure you may want some verses and chapters and such things on some of the stuff i said. I can give you all of them and more, but Im pretty stoned right now, and i figured I wouldnt ruin my buzz from reading scanning about that book.


Mooseknuckle::: nice stuff, kid.

Peace:m: :bugeye:
 
Oh i see.... so he killed my child? Good reasoning.
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No He didn't.

Fair enough. He did, he didn't, who gives a fuck?

James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

This is meant to be evidence or proof of what? From my life long studies i will be within all reason to state this explains the sun. Tha father of lights that doesn't cause darkness- that makes things live, grow and shine..... He's talking about the sun in the sky during the day. As i said earlier worship of the sun is hardly a new thing- just about every religion of old holds the sun in extreme regard. That's all James is talking about. Whether it's the sun or god it still is an answer to exactly this: Fuck all.

He would never do such thing.

How quick we are to forget the story of Noah, Lots wife, and so on and so forth. Ezekiel expresses gods hatred of man to such extent but....... As you said.... The old testament is nothing to do with you christians.... Must be a different god they were talking about. I don't care if god is malicious- it's just your blind love of someone who could be such a way. You'll never understand- you preach as you like to answer your own questions- never will you realise your own interpretations mean fuck all to anyone else.

Who told her about Santa Claus? Anyone told me about God when I was 2, 3 years old. But many told me about Sanat Claus.

The church did. They said how it was to do with christ yada yada yada. It would seem even the religious faction believe in lying when it suits their purpose and gets those of young or fragile mind to believe everything they say.

The others will give you a set of rules and tell you a bunch of things that are not necessarily true.

How convenient. Same old, same old..... They're wrong, you're right. I really hate having to stoop to such level to point out someones ignorance but boy- you just take the cake. You have ABOSLUTELY ZERO right to class other religions as mistaken, or wrong and yourself as right. To do so is simply to prove your own pathetic self righteous ignorance.

Christ wasn't like that. If they are followers of Christ, they should follow Christ's steps.

Where did i mention the dead hippy? I said: I find christians to be........ I didn't say some 2000 year old jew was, i said you were, the people who have the same ignorance you do. Them, not the dead jew.

"Accepted" is feel that others have interest in you and support you and so on. Is to feel Loved. It is the opposite of "condemned".

To feel loved? Why not say: Loved.... Accepted is a job interview, not love. But away from the petty issue why in the world would i care if you sad bunch of assholes were interested in me? You have NOTHING to offer. Shallow, self righteous, closed minded individuals with nothing to substantiate your human worth. Maybe you'll all do good in the after life- but here you're pointless.

You wrote that you were seeking Him very clearly...!

What i seek is truth. Big fucking difference.

You never had your children running away from you, have you? Well, God always had.

I take it you've never been a part of the human race? When i was a kid i got pissed off one day and ran away from home. My father came and found me....... He searched all day and all night... He never gave up- he never expected me to just 'want' to go home. he found me and instead of condemning me or having a go he gave me a hug. He worked the problems out. He did NOT shy away from his responsibility as a father. Do NOT even try to compare the pathetic nature of your god to a real father. God doesn't even come close.

Ok then. Again, it is your choice...

Absolutely.

Even if your faith is weak, He will help you and never abandon you.

I think my above last few posts clearly demonstrate you're talking utter garbage. You had no answers then- and much that i give you my respect for being the only one with the balls to try- you still couldn't manage. All of a sudden we're back to square one?? And you continue spouting absolute cobblers.

31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

He calls himself god? Or the son of? If so why is he so ignorant to have to ask why a human would doubt? It's human nature. he'd know that if he weren't so plainly stupid. The geezer didn't even know what religion he was... think he's worth the attention? Lol, not likely.

No. People that tests Him are people that don't believe in Him. Without the belief, it just doesn't work. You have first to believe, then it will happen. If you put Him to test, is because you don't believe, so it won't work. If you do for real and an unbeliever see this, then you will be able to impress the opinion to others. The motives here are very important.

The fact remains..... all you have is talk.. One big mouth, no action. No substance other than a book, badly translated, that you then interpret to please yourself. You help no-one but pretend you do a worldwide service. How noble of you.

53 And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

I wouldn't be laughing if my child had died, regardless of what anyone said. I have proof of this.... i had to watch my child die. If someone said: "he's still alive" I wouldn't laugh about it.

56 Her parents were amazed; but He instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

And thus the author completely went against Jesus command. Tell no-one! If nobody was told how comes it's in the bible for everyone on the planet to read? Seems to me like Jesus needs to learn who to trust and who not to. I wonder if Luke is in hell for sharing this bit of info Jesus commanded not to share.

And also, this is what happens when you try to test God without believing...

Acts 19:11-16
"11 God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches."
14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. "

You call that an answer to anything? Fair enough.

All you have is an old, piss poor translated book. Nothing else. Trust it, love it, belieeeeeeeeeve it. Throw your life into a book, enjoy.
 
Olaus:

To me the answer lies in perspective.

"If" there is a loving all powerful God "Then" certainly she can make the small amount of suffering that I have faced in my life into somthing good.

"If" there is an eterinty of living after we die "then" 10,20 or 80 years is but a blink of the eye and is not long lasting suffering.

The above may not be true but I think it is logical.
 
SanakeLord,

The church did. They said how it was to do with christ yada yada yada. It would seem even the religious faction believe in lying when it suits their purpose and gets those of young or fragile mind to believe everything they say.
No. My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid. He taugh me a lot at that time. The first time I got a Bible I already knew what was written in it, although I had never even opened it before.


MooseKnuckle,

Snakelord was a real father, he was there, making his prescence known. He was not playing a game of hide and seek. That would be an example of a father that abandoned his children and moved somewhere distant without ever leaving any indication that hes still around.
The issue here is who abandons who. It's not God that abandons SnakeLord, it is SnakeLord that abandons God.

No, he was making a extradiordnary claim about faith being able to protect one from physical dangers. I was surprised to hear someone say such a thing. I have never heard a theist proclaim such a belief, so i was curious to how he came up with this idea. Next time Gizz learn to read and follow the arguements. Dont try to be fucking funny when you dont have a point cause you end up sounding like a desperate child.
People don't talk about that probably because they don't believe it at all. But it IS written in the Bible and I do believe it. The church of this world seems weak at this age. But it will get better...


For everything else, please read the Bible and don't twist it.
 
MShark,

"If" there is an eterinty of living after we die "then" 10,20 or 80 years is but a blink of the eye and is not long lasting suffering.
We always remind ourselves about that at church, both with good and bad things... :p
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No. My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid. He taugh me a lot at that time. The first time I got a Bible I already knew what was written in it, although I had never even opened it before.[/B]

I'm sorry Truthseeker, but somebody has to say it:
Your arguments sound a little, um...well, crazy.
b/c they continuously refer back to when you were a little kid talking with your imaginary friend, which you totally base your belief upon.

Somebody had to say it...
And that obnoxious somebody was...

ZERO MASS
 
Zero Mass,

God is not my "imaginary friend". It is pretty different. Mainly when He shows Himself to be pretty alive...:eek:
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid.
I was under the impression that God only speaks to his prophets. Are you one of them?
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Zero Mass,

God is not my "imaginary friend". It is pretty different. Mainly when He shows Himself to be pretty alive...:eek:

Ok, I'll bite I guess.
Two questions and an opinion:
How did he show himself to be "pretty alive" to you?
And how do we know you are not a nut?
And the opinion: You are a nut.

ZERO MASS
 
TruthSeeker-


.The issue here is who abandons who. It's not God that abandons SnakeLord, it is SnakeLord that abandons God.

I see what your saying, and in your belief system its does seem like somehow Snakelord did abadon God, but you also have to admit that in that situation, God abandoned Snakelord as well. 2 wrongs do not make a right, there is no possible justification for God abandoning someone for not believing, that is quite childish. What better way to prove your existance than to reach out and help, thus eliminating doubt and at the same time creating happiness in one of his "children's" life. Basically God did abandon Snakelord, even if you think God's reasons are valid, the fact still stands that he turned his back.

For everything else, please read the Bible and don't twist it.

I dont twist the bible. I dont even quote anything from it, nor do i proclaim that I am a source of knowledge in its writings.
 
TRUTHSEEKER:::

in the bible, it says that god made humans to praise him. how can you see this in any other way than as narssicism?

And maybe you could tell me exactly what part of homosexuality is considered a sin? Is it the feeling and sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, or is it the act of sticking one's penis into another man's anus?

Peace. :m: :bugeye:
 
TruthSeeker-

No. My belief is totally based in my converstations with God when I was a little kid.

Did he actually talk to you in the conventional sense? Did you just talk and assumed that there was an entity on the receiving end, or did a voice respond to you? Because ive heard of people that hear voices............ They are called SCHIZOS!!:bugeye:
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No I never said such thing. God protects you when your faith is not strong. But when you become strong in faith, He send you to work in His kingdom. Then their belief is strong and they don't fail. God never abandons anyone. Even if your faith is weak, He will help you and never abandon you.
Did you or did you not say that if your belief is strong enough God will protect you from any harm... even a nuclear explosion?
If so my question is simply, why doesn't he protect all of us this way?

~Raithere
 
God does not equal God x Faith.

We suffer because we are not alone on earth. The same reason we love. Nobody ever asks: if there was a God, why is there so much love in the world?

A nuclear explosion will not show you whose faith was the strongest (it will probably look like it was the person who fired it). It will show you how far from God we really are.

God does protect us, yes. But you are so comfortable being protected by Him that you don't even thank Him for doing it. An invisible shield over everybody would be simply just this: a bubble. And most people already live in one.

What we need and are offered was salvation. And that goes far beyond circumstancial threats.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
You should probably have aimed that at TS rather than me. (Perhaps you meant it to be but it looks as if you are responding to me.) He has, quite literally, stated that no physical harm may come to one whose faith is strong enough. Regardless, I am confused by some of what you have said:

We suffer because we are not alone on earth. The same reason we love.
Are you saying that the only reason we suffer is because of other people? That a single person, alone, would not?

Nobody ever asks: if there was a God, why is there so much love in the world?
This is because relatively few people are going around stating that there is an omnipotent God who hates us and seeks to cause us unending pain. To such a person I would indeed pose that question.

A nuclear explosion will not show you whose faith was the strongest (it will probably look like it was the person who fired it). It will show you how far from God we really are.
Given your beliefs, I would agree.

God does protect us, yes. But you are so comfortable being protected by Him that you don't even thank Him for doing it.
What is it that he protects us from that he is not responsible for and could not eliminate entirely at whim?

An invisible shield over everybody would be simply just this: a bubble. And most people already live in one.
...
What we need and are offered was salvation. And that goes far beyond circumstancial threats.
Then God's "greatest good" is not that we obey his rules or even that we believe in him but instead is our own free-will; nor will he punish us for using it.

~Raithere
 
And we're right back in the garden of Eden. Where we were] alone and without suffering, but being tempted to do wrong, we brought suffering on ourselves, and ultimately to each other. We suffered consequences for the first time.

Then God's "greatest good" is not that we obey his rules or even that we believe in him but instead is our own free-will; nor will he punish us for using it.
That's what I think. We are neigh-untouchable in the free-will department, but as I said elsewhere:

With the freedom of choice comes the burden of decision - and of consequence.

As a cause-and-effect scientist you can appreciate that.
 
The issue here is who abandons who. It's not God that abandons SnakeLord, it is SnakeLord that abandons God.

Do you know your mother and father? Let's imagine all of a sudden your mother sits down and tells you your father isn't your real father, and that guy lives on the other side of the country.

Are you guilty of 'abandoning' him if you didn't even know he was there?

If i knew there was a god i'd be christian, just like you... I don't know there is so how can i be guilty of 'abandoning'? In this instance it is your father who has abandoned you.

No matter how many futile arguments you come up with, god has no excuses.

He dumped me on this planet, abandoned me but somehow with all the limited ability us humans apparently have - he Expects, and frankly demands that we go find him.

He then kills my child to test me, yet i cant test him. You with all your worldly proof from talking to imaginary friends as a child know 100% you will survive a nuclear bomb, have eternal love from god and will live for eternity in heaven- all because a shepherd said so. Even though that shepherd was only writing down older stories based on completely different beliefs. He changed them to suit his own beliefs and now you do the same. This shows utter lack of validity.

You don't even need athiests, agnostics etc.... I've noticed the contradictions in all religious folks posts. This shows beyond reasonable doubt that we are unique. As such we interpret things to our own needs, not the needs of mankind. If every other christian disagrees with you on some things, agrees with you on others who's to say who's right, if anyone? Not to mention the thousands of other beliefs that you, without actual concious thought, are more than happy to just piss on. They are wrong- you know that. You are right- You know that too. Don't you see the problem with that?

And here you come preaching to us who are wrong. Telling us if we believe we can drink poison, telling us it's ok if our children die because jesus loves us. All because you heard a voice when you were 3.

You then sidestep 90% of the bible because it contradicts everything else you say. You claim how loving god is because the bible says so but then hide from the malicious nature of flooding, turning into salt and other destructions caused solely by the one you claim to be all loving. How can you just pick and choose like that? It's preposterous. You then accuse people of abandoning something we dont even know. Ok you heard voices as a kid but can't even you see how unsubstantial that actually is?

You claim god didn't kill my son by pasting a bible passage that is most likely talking of the sun. Even if it's not in reference to the sun it isn't an answer to my question, and nowhere in that bit of text does it show god didn't kill my son. You tell people not to twist the bible then do exactly the same thing yourself.

All we're left with is a question you couldn't, and still can't answer. Again i give you my respect for being the only religious person to try- but the fact remains you failed. You then as a last resort turn round and attempt to lay blame on me. Frankly i think that's fucking sick.
 
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