Are athiests happy?
- Thread starter John J. Bannan
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John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
The fact that I am alive has no significance to the universe and therefore no meaning. Whether life has significance to me does not create meaning. All you are saying is that the meaning of life is to live. If that's all the meaning, then why aren't we all self-actualized? Instead, we are searching for meaning. Raising the question itself by so many proves meaning isn't found in life itself. Living a life with God would have to be meaningful. After all, you get to see the universe in an omnipotent omniscient way wouldn't you? What more would you want?
Why? How is what the universe thinks or not of any relevance to anything?
Why?
What is wrong with that?
Clearly you are. Like I said earlier, once you manage to answer the question that you asked, you'll no longer be a theist.
Why?
Wouldn't know. Where does it claim that?
Sorry, you found "seeing the universe in an omnipotent, omniscient way" as fun or meaningful? No offence but it sounds plain miserable to me. The very second omniscience comes into the equation there's nothing left to know or explore. There's instantly no value to anything because you already know it all.
Star Trek gets into this with the various episodes featuring the Q, (mainly in Voyager). How more boring can an existence get when there's nothing to see, know or do?
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
Again, you are presuming the after life in like Earthly life - that we think and feel the same - that we get bored. If you do have an after life, I rather much doubt it would be like this life. Fun is not the same as meaning. Meaning is purpose. Sure, your life has purpose to life. But so what? Life is no substitute for God. Sure the universe doesn't literally think and therefore really can't care about me. That's just an expression. I'm looking at the big picture, you're looking at the small picture. If you can ignore the big picture, then sure life is it's own meaning. You're sticking your head in the sand, though.
Soul is mind, will, and emotion. How can soul not exist?
We are spirits. We live in bodies. We have souls.
Spirits are eternal. I don't understand how someone can be satisfied knowing theirs will burn in hell when they were given the choice of Heaven.
Probably what you are defining as spirit many others define as soul. The point being is that there is zero evidence that your consciousness has the ability to persist once all cellular activity in your brain / nervous system has stopped.
Also, there is no evidence that a 'place' of eternal reward or eternal punishment exists, let alone an omnipotent life form that supposedly 'created' the places.
The semantics tend to matter because I have seen a pattern of Theists loading their questions. It apprently doesn't apply to yours as you have amply clarified the meaning you intended.
The entire universe is not something that can make such humanoid judgements. Meaning is something humans create. Meaning is only meaningful in relation to something else, there is no such thing as abstracted meaning. I'm saying there is no inherent meaning to anything of itself. You could personally think something is meaningful in relation to your life. The universe is full of cold indifference. Personally, I think the search for this abstract meaning is pointless and artificial. We search for meaning because that's a cultural value. Meaning has to do with motivation. Motivation is not an inherent quality of matter.
The search for meaning is like an addiction, if you found your life meaningful, you wouldn't seek anything else like an afterlife.
I would submit that if we do not think as we do now, or feel as we do now.. then there's absolutely no bloody point to it because... we're not us. You're not you, who gives a shit? You're still therefore only living this one life as you that has as much meaning as you give it. You consider this life meaningless while looking forward to a life where you're not even you anymore. Where exactly is the point or value?
Finally at least we agree there is purpose. What do you mean "so what?" So nothing.. Where are we going with this?
You've said eventually we go somewhere where we're not even us and then apparently have "purpose" because we see the universe from omnipotence and omniscience.. Same question to you.. So what?
To you, clearly. Kindly don't try and make out that your statement is an absolute. It isn't.
What picture? What do you mean "big picture"? You're making up future lives because you currently have no worth, (to yourself), in this one. I don't make up future lives because I have my purpose and worth right here.
Your statement is meaningless. Show me anything other than this life and I'll investigate - but don't think you dreaming up such fantasy means everyone else is sticking their heads in the sand. Do not think for one second that because you can't find purpose for your existence here that nobody else can and do not think for one second that because you find some "purpose" in not being you anymore with some god being that everyone else would find such an idea even remotely bearable let alone worthwhile.
Meaning is literally the relationship of two or more variables and exists with or without human interpretation. Specific relationships might give a person a moment of pleasure / pain, but meaning is quite overly abundant.
I think people tend to confuse 'meaning' and 'purpose'. Reality has given life on earth a purpose and that is to persist (reproduction being the method to overcome entropy). Any other purpose is human-chosen.
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
That's right. The purpose of life is to persist. Any other purpose is human-chosen. Except, of course, if God exists. That's another ball of wax entirely. Then, the purpose of life is in relation to God. There is no meaning to life beyond persisting. Hey, can that be fun? Sure! You bet! But, is it meaningful? No. But I guess if you can overlook that fact, than there is meaning to life for an atheist.
Yes I am very happy, but I don't know if I'd go as far to say that I'm happy because I'm an atheist. Having said that, my beliefs have lead me to an intense appreciation of life, as it is the only one I'll get. Not to say I didn't appreciate it while I was a theist, but it was somewhat regarded as not as important as the next life; death was casually seen as ("really, if you think about it...") the best thing that could happen.
Now I think that such thoughts distract from truly living and enjoying our only life here. So I would profusely disagree that my life is meaningless drivel, and I am slightly offended that you would ignorantly smear your stereotype upon all atheists. Shame on you.
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
But appreciating life is not the same as the meaning of life. Of course, if you don't believe in God, then your strategy of pretending enjoyment of life is meaning I guess works fine - but must leave a hole?
Then I suppose cows should find meaning in their being designed by God as dinner for people?
You're underestimating their worth. There's also milk, leather, buttons, comb and fertilizer, as well as biogas
John J. Bannan
Registered Senior Member
Since when do cows search for meaning? Show me a cow that searches for meaning - and I'll show you a cow that could pay for dinner instead.
So I propose that man searches for meaning only because he can. It's entirely unnecessary to be a happy and healthy creature on Earth. Most social animals find meaning in belonging to their tribe. Since we are social apes, could it be that we seek in the idea of God, that which we are missing in our society? Monotheism arose along with civilization and cities. Could it be that our connection with nature is what gave us meaning in the past?
Did Thomas Edison's life have no meaning or will you give up the lights in your house? Did A.G. Bell's achieve something? You bet, with far-reaching ramifications. Else throw away your cellphone.
Sure, Edison and Bell didn't affect the entire universe, but why must they or the rest of us have any impact on the cosmos at all to make meaning for our lives? I put it to you that if you honestly believe that you must affect the universe for your life to have meaning, you are doomed to the very bleak existence that you project on athiests.
And now for the question...what does the purported existence of a god have to do with these two exemplar meaningful lives?
You are slightly mistaken. Humans are searching more often than not for the origin of life. Sometimes they're even searching for satisfaction and happiness. This is not necessarily the same thing as life's "meaning".
Why must living a life with god be meaningful? Would you be assisting in the maintenance of the cosmos? Or would you just be a part of a massive herd of amorphous creatures singing his name? What makes you think that you'd be omnipotent and omniscient if there is a heaven and you get to live a life with god? LG seems to think there can only be one omnipotence. Personally if I were that omnipotence, I wouldn't be giving power away to you human lunkheads just because you lived for 7 or 8 odd decades.
You leave a hole simply because you created it. To ask the question "why" already assumes there is a reason, when there might just well be none.
If I was to ask you "Where is your father's hidden buried treasure?" You would say, "That doesn't make sense because my father doesn't have a hidden buried treasure." You'd be right in doing so. I may perceive your answer to be missing something tremendous, but that's only because I've made the presumption that your dad has buried treasure.
You bet.
How does the existence of an omnipotent life form change life's purpose?
Of course there is. Meaning IS the relationship between two or more variables. Can you give me a value of how many relationships life has to anything it can have a relationship with? Probably not because that value is likely greater than you are I could verbally count to in a lifetime.
I think you are confused between the difference between meaning and purpose and your present value system wont allow you to value life's purpose or whatever sentient life chooses for itself. It seems as if for you that purpose only becomes valuable if assigned to you by an omnipotent life form.