Are all cultures worthy of equal respect?

[birch]

It's a matter of understanding principles of moral evaluation.

and those 'principles' are not practiced or even embraced by everyone within any culture. laws are one thing, people's actions and their personal nature are another.

i would take the intent of this topic seriously if it were any other subject that dealt with inanimate objects but we're talking about people with the idea that 'culture' represents them morally in black and white. unfortunately, i find it almost luridly funny like a circus pretending it's not. when you deal with actual people within a culture, you realize there are good and bad. pie in the sky principles as well as image of a culture or country don't mean squat when you face the reality of everyday 'people' and what they are.

so this thread that supposedly means that one culture is superior to another is basically just a veil or mask to say that a people within that culture are morally superior when that is an amazingly ridiculous boatload of bollocks. absolutely and i mean this emphatically, no way in hell is that true. their are good, mediocre and shitty people everywhere. 'principles' people say live up to or give lip service to as representative of them is quite iffy. it's like someone who says they believe adultery is wrong or are christian but there is cheating going on right and left. principles? lol. anyone can say this or that principle is what they believe in.

so, since america is supposedly a 'christian' and a (moral?) nation, we can assume there would be no killing, no adultery, no prostitution, no cheating, lying, hatred, jealousy, no child abuse, no drug addiction or drunkenness, no government or corporate corruption and just all goody two shoes people, right?
sure, in one's fabricated and artificial hubris.

 

[Arioch]

@birch --

yes, some cultures or countries have aspects that are worse in some ways than others but that doesn't mean, for instance, the west does not have it's own areas of faults.

Never said that at all. I know full well that we have more than enough flaws to occupy ourselves for a good long while. However one of the downsides to living in a global community is that we've lost the ability to just shut ourselves off and work on our own problems without everyone else's problems affecting us. And while we definitely don't have the right to just barge into other countries and change whatever we think is wrong with them(baring a cry for help from a large number of people living there), we certainly have the right to stand up and shout "Oi!" when we notice that tits have become upwardly inclined.

as for as treating women like crap, you don't have to be a non-westerner to have this attitude

Again, I'm fully aware of this(having traveled to every state except for Hawaii I've seen quite a lot of shit), however it still doesn't negate a valid criticism, regardless of who makes it.

human nature is pretty much the same everywhere. have you not noticed? don't have to leave your native country to run into or find assholes. duh?

Of course I've noticed, however that doesn't mean that all cultures are pretty much the same. Some cultures, due to one influence or another, are more prone to violent wars than others are. Some are more prone to civil rights abuses than others. And some are more prone to producing martyrs than others are. It all depends on the various influencing factors pushing on the culture in question.

For example, Victorian era England was awash with animal abusers(usually in the form of adolescents), even more so than many surrounding cultures at the time. The cause of this had nothing to do with inherent biological programming, it had to do with the fact that psychologists of the era had pronounced that "motherly love" was inherently destructive to a child's psyche, thus leading parents to show less and less affection towards their children. This influence led their culture to be more prone to produce individuals who couldn't control various violent impulses, including animal abuse.

Modern day islamic culture faces a similar scenario. Public affection, even public affection between spouses, is frowned upon in most islamic communities and it draws it's origin from islam's Bedouin heritage. However this makes islamic culture more prone to producing martyrs and other violent individuals than economic or political factors can account for.

Does this impeach all of islamic culture? Of course not(though much of islamic culture can be impeached through one argument or another), but it's still true whether we want to face it or not.

 

[wynn]

and those 'principles' are not practiced or even embraced by everyone within any culture.

This is not the point here.
We're interested in the theory of moral reasoning as such, as it applies to the phenomenon of being faced with many cultures.

 

[birch]

This is not the point here.
We're interested in the theory of moral reasoning as such, as it applies to the phenomenon of being faced with many cultures.

riight. the op is not trying to 'theorize' about moral reasoning. the op is simple and short-sighted. i'm sorry, theory? it's not that mysterious to work out.

'respect' for a culture is dependent on one's value system but the main 'point' is that no culture is perfect, especially along moral lines. some cultures are worse than others in certain ways as that is obvious but the problem with the op is it takes a false "stereotyped" idea of what good and bad is. he can't see the morality in one culture may be better in some regards than another because he believes and probably has been taught that western culture is just inherently moral on all fronts all around. also, cultures are fluid and are constantly in change, even if it's not readily apparent.

 

[Arioch]

@birch --

and probably has been taught that western culture is just inherently moral on all fronts all around.

Well, if we're going to take the OP as a representative of the US population then it would be more fair to say that he's been taught that "christian culture" is inherently moral on all fronts, because that seems to be what a frighteningly large percentage of Americans are taught.

 

[wynn]

riight. the op is not trying to 'theorize' about moral reasoning. the op is simple and short-sighted. i'm sorry, theory? it's not that mysterious to work out.

'respect' for a culture is dependent on one's value system but the main 'point' is that no culture is perfect, especially along moral lines. some cultures are worse than others in certain ways as that is obvious but the problem with the op is it takes a false "stereotyped" idea of what good and bad is. he can't see the morality in one culture may be better in some regards than another because he believes and probably has been taught that western culture is just inherently moral on all fronts all around. also, cultures are fluid and are constantly in change, even if it's not readily apparent.

Granted. But such moral relativism makes it difficult, if not impossible to evaluate a culture - or anything else - at all.

Moral relativism is still an evaluation system; but it is an internally illogical one, as it is both an evaluation system as well as a system that proposes there be no evaluating.

 

[The Esotericist]

Many of us live in a multicultural society.
Our coworkers, classmates, family members, neighbors are often from different cultures than ourselves. We live and work together - and so we have to learn to get along somehow, or we will suffer.

. . . and so? We shouldn't judge anyone based on any superficial qualities. It is how individuals act and think that we should take a measure of their person. . . not any of those existential qualities that fate should happen, through no control of their own, happen to thrust upon them.

“The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.”
~Ann Landers

“The measure of your quality as a public person, as a citizen, is the gap between what you do and what you say.”
~Ramsey Clark

“The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have.”
~Vince Lombardi

 

[The Esotericist]

Yeah....not a fucking chance. You'd have to stop everyone everywhere from being human for that to work.

Yes.

I hope someday you'll join us. . .

 

[Arioch]

Hey, I like to hope as much as the next guy. Unlike the next guy, however, I don't let my hopes overtake my reason.

 

[The Esotericist]

Hey, I like to hope as much as the next guy. Unlike the next guy, however, I don't let my hopes overtake my reason.

ahhhh yes, the tragedy of the commons. If he's going to piss in the pool, I might as well too. Soon, everyone is pissing in the pool, because hey, reason dictates that we're all animals, and there is no sense in being civilized, that it? :bugeye:

Prisoner's dilemma thinking. . . I forgot. You can't reason with children and animals. And you're all animals.

 

[WillNever]

Some thoughts:

My definition of respecting someone includes tolerating someone. I can see someone tolerating someone who they respect, but not respecting someone they couldn't tolerate. That's just me, and your own mileage may vary. More definitions of the word "respect" exist, and everyone in this thread is free to use whatever terms and definitions they see fit. Just make sure you adequately explain what you mean when using ambiguous terms so that we all know what you're trying to say.

As well, some people in this thread have pointed out that criticizing a culture is black-and-white thinking and that it is a flawed argumentation for the reason that human nature is the same everywhere. For example:

but as to ACTUAL PEOPLE. human nature is pretty much the same everywhere.

If you had taken a second to read some of my posts from last year, you would see that I made that argument a long time ago.

People generally act the same everywhere, given the same background and circumstances.

That was from a thread last year, when I was defending some Israelis that were being attacked by some Israeli haters on sciforums. To put it another way, I'm ten steps ahead of you.

However, even I recognize that we can't excuse bad behavior just because someone was born into a culture that condones it. Muslim culture condones the brutalization of women in many places. However, I still berate muslim culture for denying access to education for women and not letting those women make the choice for themselves. I do not believe that muslim women were born into this world "thriving on abuse;" they simply do not know any other way of life (and death) because of the circumstances into which they were born.

So if I see a culture acting that way, then I don't feel too bad about berating them, mocking them, and continually putting them down until they change their ways. No one else will speak for the abused in those cultures, so someone has to. And I feel comfortable doing this knowing full well that the people of that culture simply never knew a better way.

And I don't care what anyone here says; the way we treat other humans and animals in the USA is way better than how China (and other human trafficking nations like Thailand, Cambodia, Viet Nam) treat them. I can't imagine a reasonable person arguing against that unless they had an ulterior motive, such as to boost the reputation of human rights abusers.

for instance, i've been in korea for the last few months and i've noticed they are a lot more civil, a lot more mannerly and a lot more disciplined than americans.

I knew a long time ago that you had either a geographical or an ethnic connection to asian culture, probably both. How did I know that?? Your sickly fascination with asian culture contrasted with your constant criticism of Americans clued me into that. Are you finally done pretending that you are a white American? Why did you hide this information when I asked you in two other threads? Afraid you would appear discredited?

 

[birch]

Some thoughts:

My definition of respecting someone includes tolerating someone. I can see someone tolerating someone who they respect, but not respecting someone they couldn't tolerate. That's just me, and your own mileage may vary. More definitions of the word "respect" exist, and everyone in this thread is free to use whatever terms and definitions they see fit. Just make sure you adequately explain what you mean when using ambiguous terms so that we all know what you're trying to say.

As well, some people in this thread have pointed out that criticizing a culture is black-and-white thinking and that it is a flawed argumentation for the reason that human nature is the same everywhere. For example:


If you had taken a second to read some of my posts from last year, you would see that I made that argument a long time ago.

That was from a thread last year, when I was defending some Israelis that were being attacked by some Israeli haters on sciforums. To put it another way, I'm ten steps ahead of you.

However, even I recognize that we can't excuse bad behavior just because someone was born into a culture that condones it. Muslim culture condones the brutalization of women in many places. However, I still berate muslim culture for denying access to education for women and not letting those women make the choice for themselves. I do not believe that muslim women were born into this world "thriving on abuse;" they simply do not know any other way of life (and death) because of the circumstances into which they were born.

So if I see a culture acting that way, then I don't feel too bad about berating them, mocking them, and continually putting them down until they change their ways. No one else will speak for the abused in those cultures, so someone has to. And I feel comfortable doing this knowing full well that the people of that culture simply never knew a better way.

And I don't care what anyone here says; the way we treat other humans and animals in the USA is way better than how China (and other human trafficking nations like Thailand, Cambodia, Viet Nam) treat them. I can't imagine a reasonable person arguing against that unless they had an ulterior motive, such as to boost the reputation of human rights abusers.

I knew a long time ago that you had either a geographical or an ethnic connection to asian culture, probably both. How did I know that?? Your sickly fascination with asian culture contrasted with your constant criticism of Americans clued me into that. Are you finally done pretending that you are a white American? Why did you hide this information when I asked you in two other threads? Afraid you would appear discredited?

you seem to be under the delusion that people don't know your agenda. you are "not" ten steps ahead of anyone either.

my ethnicity is not some secret and i don't have a 'sickly' fascination with asian culture. it seems your the one who is 'sickly' to think it's wierd to be interested in any culture, especially one's own. when did i ever pretend i was a white american? this is amazing to me. you are crazy.

i criticize americans when i think it's called for, unlike you, who think any criticism of america is uncalled for, especially if it's not by a 'white' american while you think it's okay to disparage a whole other race/culture. the idea that you think i am coming across as 'white' is not a compliment to me, though it is to you because you can't understand anyone feeling proud or okay with their ethnicity but your own. i can play that game too, it's easy because it's immature which evidently you are. but even when i vent occasionally without much thought, i'm not serious. you, however, are which indicates serious sociopathic and ethical issues regarding morality which you somehow believe others are lacking more than you.

we all know that cultures have things that need to be changed but that is not why you started this thread. you already revealed that you believe a culture's moral climate is genetic, implied or overt. it's been obvious by your many posts. why are you such an idiot to pretend otherwise?

what kind of a psycho are you? do you think people are that stupid on this forum? go to an aol chat site and you could pull this crap off but not here.

in conclusion, if you were actually legitimate, you would have started a thread addressing the 'problems' within cultures and not trying to rank them for such shallow hubris. you only did this after your ass got handed to you by quadraphonics in another thread where you stupidly revealed your prejudice. that is really what motivates you. lmao

 

[WillNever]

my ethnicity is not some secret and i don't have a 'sickly' fascination with asian culture. it seems your the one who is 'sickly' to think it's wierd to be interested in any culture, especially one's own.

So... then why have you still not said what it was? It is pretty pertinent, given your behavior. I take it that you are Korean, or of Korean descent?

 

[WillNever]

you already revealed that you believe a culture's moral climate is genetic, implied or overt. it's been obvious by your many posts.

That definitely never happened.

of course there are things to be changed in many cultures but you want to disparage the whole people as being inherently wrong when that is not the case nor do you EVER look at what is wrong or has been done wrong by your own culture.

Sure I have -- in the appropriate threads. Neither this thread nor the 2 year old girl thread are related to America, however.

 

[birch]

So... then why have you still not said what it was? It is pretty pertinent, given your behavior. I take it that you are Korean, or of Korean descent?

you are an idiot to think my being asian has to do with my criticisms of america. i criticize a lot of things but you only notice what you want because of your own ignorance and delusions as well as agenda. i also criticize my own culture/ethnicity or race as well. you didn't know that, did ya? because your mind is a stereotypical fool.

my behavior? my behavior has to do with my personality and how i think. i know plenty of asians abroad and asian-americans who wouldn't even criticize america the way i do. some absolutely love america or think it's perfect, some have criticisms and praise that will differ from me just as anyone else. so how is me being asian "pertinent"? idiot!

your thinking is very narrow-minded by typical.

 

[WillNever]

you are an idiot to think my being asian has to do with my criticisms of america.

I see. Let me ask you something then. How do you think I guessed that you were asian, and in more than one thread? Rememeber, I had no idea where you lived or what you looked like. I had only your words and your attitude to go by.

 

[birch]

btw, i don't get why revealing one's 'ethnicity' is pertinent to the issue of america or anyone criticizing it. does it matter if one is korean, japanese, vietnamese, indonesian, thai? i find this kind of funny because it makes no sense.

willnever or whatever, why don't you grow a brain cell and start making sense.

 

[birch]

I see. Let me ask you something then. How do you think I guessed that you were asian, and in more than one thread? Rememeber, I had no idea where you lived or what you looked like. I had only your words and your attitude to go by.

because it was implied by my many posts. is this something profound to you?

i can tell you right now that it will not end well for you and you will be exposed for the idiot you are if you keep on with this but it's up to you. what point are you making with me as an example is the real question. you aren't making one. why??

let me explain. like i mentioned earlier, i have asian-american friends as well as know people in asia who don't have the same criticisms or praise of america as i do.

why??? uh, because we are all DIFFERENT PEOPLE! wow, that's something, isn't it??

isn't lucysnow asian on this forum? notice she doesn't have the exact same views or criticisms etc as me??

your real point is again, what?? except obviously that you are an idiot??

that "i" represent a whole? just like your fake stereotypes of people? obviously not.

you're too dumb. please pick someone on your level.

 

[WillNever]

because it was implied by my many posts. is this something profound to you?

i can tell you right now that it will not end well for you and you will be exposed for the idiot you are if you keep on with this but it's up to you. what point are you making with me as an example is the real question. you aren't making one. why??

My point is that I guessed you were asian because you let your cultural background seep into your identity and it is affecting your beliefs. The real reason that you took offense at my comments in the 2 year old girl thread is because you thought I was attacking a group that you perceive an affiliation with based purely on your geographic location, physical appearance, and shared customs. That is probably not the most intellectual way to go about things.

 

[wynn]

. . . and so? We shouldn't judge anyone based on any superficial qualities. It is how individuals act and think that we should take a measure of their person. . . not any of those existential qualities that fate should happen, through no control of their own, happen to thrust upon them.

A person's culture manifests precisely in how they "act and think."