Anyone else find Crop circles beautiful?
- Thread starter moementum7
- Start date
Yeah, I've checked out the site.SkinWalker said:
People trying hard to sell a computerized spirograph.
What about it?
Even the guys that make the crop circles featured on this site claim to have seen UFO's, in this particular case an orange ball of light and other unexplained anomalies.
http://www.circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html
Very interesting indeed. :bugeye:
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Again - farmer's don't much like kids mucking about in their fields wrecking their crops. If crop circles are caused by vandals, then, like with break and enter, grand theft auto and other crimes, there should be a history of arrests and convictions. Is there?
That is not true, Glenn. These fields are big, are they not? Don't you imagine it would be hard to find someone running into a cornfield in the middle of the night? I just don't think it is an easy task. Besides, the farmers don't know ahead of time that their field is going to be "circled".
JD
JD
Also, it's been proven that man can make those markings with such simple tools as a sled and some rope, so who does it HAVE to be aliens?
That's the annoying part; people have taken claim to these things, and yet that's not good enough. People still refuse to believe that crop circles are man-made. That would be like me punching you in the face, but you simply refusing to believe that I did it.
JD
That's the annoying part; people have taken claim to these things, and yet that's not good enough. People still refuse to believe that crop circles are man-made. That would be like me punching you in the face, but you simply refusing to believe that I did it.
JD
Crop Circles are manmade and created by admitted hoaxers. The "Circle Makers" website above is but one, single group making crop circles.
Also admitted to the deed are Doug Bower and David Chorley, who admitted to over 250 circles created by just themselves.
The very fact that there are admitted hoaxers who have demonstrated their methodologies and reproduced circles that were pronounced "impossible to have been made by man" by pseudoscience nutters that pretend to "study" the phenomenon, is evidence that there need not be any other explanation than man.
The fact that circles get more complex through time is also consistent with the endeavors of man.
Any other claim, is what needs evidence. The evidence of a man-made cause is clear. There simply is no reason for someone who is just credulous by nature to believe they are caused by anything else.
Nickel, Joe. (1992) "The Crop Circle Phenomenon: An Investigative Report," The Skeptical Inquirer .
Also admitted to the deed are Doug Bower and David Chorley, who admitted to over 250 circles created by just themselves.
The very fact that there are admitted hoaxers who have demonstrated their methodologies and reproduced circles that were pronounced "impossible to have been made by man" by pseudoscience nutters that pretend to "study" the phenomenon, is evidence that there need not be any other explanation than man.
The fact that circles get more complex through time is also consistent with the endeavors of man.
Any other claim, is what needs evidence. The evidence of a man-made cause is clear. There simply is no reason for someone who is just credulous by nature to believe they are caused by anything else.
Nickel, Joe. (1992) "The Crop Circle Phenomenon: An Investigative Report," The Skeptical Inquirer .
"the lack of convictions" is also due to the fact that in the UK, we don't have strict laws on Defending our homes and properties like I believe say somewhere like Texas.
For instance if a farm chased someone across a field and they fell over and hurt themselves, they could sue the farmer for their injury because they injured themself on their land, even though they were participating in a crime.
A farmer can not hold an individual against their will as this can be called False Imprisonment (I believe) and as for "Citizens arrests", well you can use any force to arrest someone, you actually have to ask them to go down to the policestation to have the real police do the arrest, now how many criminals are actually going to follow you because you've "Caught them" with no ability to refrain them from running off and injuring theirselves on your land?
For instance if a farm chased someone across a field and they fell over and hurt themselves, they could sue the farmer for their injury because they injured themself on their land, even though they were participating in a crime.
A farmer can not hold an individual against their will as this can be called False Imprisonment (I believe) and as for "Citizens arrests", well you can use any force to arrest someone, you actually have to ask them to go down to the policestation to have the real police do the arrest, now how many criminals are actually going to follow you because you've "Caught them" with no ability to refrain them from running off and injuring theirselves on your land?
There are people who repeatedly admit to crimes they have never done.SkinWalker said:
So what.
Who are these people that claimed the crop circles in question were impossible to re-create? Are they profesionals on the subject?
Do they have a Crop Circle Degree on their wall?
It does not matter if out of 1000 crop circles ever made, that these people had proof that they made 999 of them, the last one remains in question.
And it is fair to assume that the last one was indeed made from these guys as well, but not a fact.
Again, any claim stated as fact needs proof.
Even your claim that they were ALL done by man.
Anyone saying they were all done by aliens needs proof also.
Show me indisputable proof of your claim that they are ALL made by man.
Again, it's a fair assumption.
You're right. Some might have been done by the wind. Or imagination.
Now your just being silly SkinwalkerSkinWalker said:
The Cerealologist I knew of printed a smal pamphlet that use to be taken to many music festivals. It contained stories from people that had seen or heard this, but most of it really contained discussion about what activities were planned and when. Although there were a few instances of scientific intervention and cropcircles that didn't so much baffle them but caused them to call in scientific analysis of the data presented.
The data itself suggested that the circles are manmade, as to who and how their are many answers.
There are actually groups of people that class themselves as wiccans that worship solstices and do bizarre rituals (Usually getting nakey) but you can't rule out crop circle making as apart of their mischeif an merriment.
There is then the community of people that attend such music (folk) festivals that again just love to do things for fun, afterall you've all seen the Lead Zeppelin record sleave depicting a corncircle.
There is then what the scientific community disputed involving the electromagnetics, some will say natural occurances, however the only natural pattern thats similar to a corn circle of some of the complexer designs is a Snowflake and they exist do to certain primative mathematic equations that use Gravity. (You can't say a snowflake supports a corncircles existance.) The likelihood is that the Government and Military have technology they have been openly testing and since the whole sharade of "Public misinformation or Lack of information" occurs what better way than making corncircles to mess with everyones head while conducting test.
Of course on top of all that, theres the few likely lads that decide "Wouldn't it be cool to hoax the local village" and well... the hoax usually grows.
The data itself suggested that the circles are manmade, as to who and how their are many answers.
There are actually groups of people that class themselves as wiccans that worship solstices and do bizarre rituals (Usually getting nakey) but you can't rule out crop circle making as apart of their mischeif an merriment.
There is then the community of people that attend such music (folk) festivals that again just love to do things for fun, afterall you've all seen the Lead Zeppelin record sleave depicting a corncircle.
There is then what the scientific community disputed involving the electromagnetics, some will say natural occurances, however the only natural pattern thats similar to a corn circle of some of the complexer designs is a Snowflake and they exist do to certain primative mathematic equations that use Gravity. (You can't say a snowflake supports a corncircles existance.) The likelihood is that the Government and Military have technology they have been openly testing and since the whole sharade of "Public misinformation or Lack of information" occurs what better way than making corncircles to mess with everyones head while conducting test.
Of course on top of all that, theres the few likely lads that decide "Wouldn't it be cool to hoax the local village" and well... the hoax usually grows.
Maybe.
The point here, momentum, is that because we have seen demonstrations of these circles being made by man is enough. If you want to say that these things are possibly done by aliens, you have to take a leap of faith. The proof that people can and have created crop circles is clear and available; the proof that aliens have created them is nowhere to be found, so to say that if 999 crop circles out of 1000 isn't enough is a real reach.
JD
JD
I don't mean to sound rude but I think your missing the point.JDawg said:
I have made no claim one way or the other.
I ask only the same responsibility to prove any statement or claim that is made in the affirmative.
Some one claims it aliens,...prove it.
Someone says it's man....prove it.
And this goes for each and every individual circle made, not just for some of them.
Some does not equal all.
It can allow assumption for all practical purposes, but not fact of the matter.
And yes, the 999 out of 1000 is a real reach, but is still valid.
If there were 1000 items on the checklist of a shuttle launch to go over before takeoff, and you checked 999 of them off as good to go, but decided not to check the last one because "Ah, the rest of them are good so that one must be good to go too."...however you choose to look at it, it's still careless assumption.
If someone chooses to believe that these are ALL man made that is fine with me.
Some HAVE been proven to be made by man, so I have no problem with the claim that "Some crop circles have been made by man". and is correct.
However, if someone is to claim that they are ALL man made, then they have the responsibility to prove that they are ALL man made.
I have yet to see clear evidence of either claims that seem to have been made.That aliens have made one or many of them, or that man has created all of them.
Only degrees of assumption based on past experiences, limited knowledge, and current dominating beliefs.
And as such I will remain open on the subject and reserve final judgement until proof is given one way or the other.
SkinWalker said:
Mind power, naturally.
moementum7 said:
Correct. Skepticism can be extreme. Some skeptics all too often remind me of fundamentalist religionists: they already know the answer, so you either agree with them, or you're wrong.
They also allow themselves to make absolute statements, such as "All crop circles are this..." while denying others the same right .
Woody and his narrow views on homosexuality are a good example.
moementum7 said:
Interesting point.
I also do not mean to sound rude, but you don't seem to understand how this works. It is not the responsibility of the scientific community to go out and dig up every odd-shaped hill in the natural world, or to interrogate a community around each crop circle. We have evidence...actually, proof...that crop circles can be and have been made by man. We have videotaped footage of men making these intricate designs with simple tools, with testimony from parties claiming responsibility. We know for a fact that crop circles are made by man.
All of the crop circles? Well, now you're splitting hairs. Why? Because once you find a cause for so many, it should, in your mind, cancel out the original notion that UFOs were creating them. Remember, when this started happening, a lot of people said UFOs were doing it. Later, when we discovered that it was done by man (including the ones that people had said "could not have been created by man") a person should say "Oh, OK, so it wasn't aliens, it was man."
But no, man, you're not going to be able to prove every single crop cirlce in the world. There are too many intangebles. There are people doing them today, I'm sure, who want people to believe that aliens created them. Matter of fact, it took years and years before the two most famous crop circle makers to come forward and admit their hoax.
In a case like this, yes it does. The standard has been set: We know man makes these things. To now assume that there could possibly be one or two made by aliens is an outlandish claim with no base in fact or reality. Don't you understand that? You don't need proof of every single crop circle, because you have proof that a TON of them were created by man, and no proof whatsoever that ANY of them were created by UFOs. What does that tell you? If you're talking solid fact, I'm not sure that you could prove it one way or the other; but the only possible consideration here is that yes, they were all created by man.
No it isn't valid. Not here, my friend. It isn't realistic in this case, when you have so much proof for one side of the case and none for the other.
Saying that you can't say in fact that crop circles are manmade because you've only been able to link 999 out of 1000 to man is a very crude, unscientific view. It would be the same thing as if 1000 flying saucers were to fly over New York tonight, and it was proven that 999 of them were from Mars, and someone was to say "Well, that 1000th one wasn't proven, so it's not safe to say that they're all from Mars..."
It would be the same thing. When you have overwhelming evidence, you can't just hold out on the last example and hope for the best. You have to, at some point, take common sense into account. Obviously, if 999 crop cirlces were made by man, it is most probable that all 1000 were. There really isn't any other way to view it.
Apples to oranges, dude. You compare a thing like crop cirlces to the preperation for a shuttle launch? First of all, checking to see if a computer is working properly does not compare to the idea of proving a thing such as crop circles. There are variables when it comes to computers, but there are none when it comes to this...
Think of it this way, instead...someone discovers a cure for AIDS, and 999 patients out of 1000 are cured after taking it. Do you then refuse to release the vaccine because it did not work on one out of 1000 patients? No, you scream at the top of your lungs "We've found a friggin' cure for AIDS, bitches! YES!" You don't "reserve your judgement" on the matter, because the evidence is overwhelming. The same applies to the crop circle phenominon. If 999 crop cirlces are made by man, the 1000th was made by man. It is simple.
Wrong. They aren't assumptions, they are facts. Again, we have proof that man has made crop cirlces. That isn't "limited knowledge" or "Dominating beliefs". It's fact. Evidence. Proof.
That is fine, but you must understand that your stance is one that lacks any foundation. We have proof of man creating crop cirlces, and no proof of aliens creating them. You remain open because of an unfounded claim made by people who are inclined to believe that Earth has been visited by extra-terrestrials. How does that make sense, momentum? How is that scientific? Granted, you are entitled to your opinion, but please do not try to present it in a scientific way when you are in fact reserving judgement based on a claim that has no evidence whatsoever.
If I said to you "I think Chi power is creating the crop cirlces" would you still reserve judgement until someone could prove that every single crop circle in the world is NOT created by Chi power?
JD
Well said, JDawg. You did what I think M7 was trying (in a friendly manner) to goad me into doing: spend more than a few minutes writing about the topic. I was tempted, but just didn't have that kind of time this week.
Sure. There could be other-than-anthropogenic causes for crop circles. But I've seen no reason to believe there are. Particularly for the examples that are more than a simple circle.
Sure. There could be other-than-anthropogenic causes for crop circles. But I've seen no reason to believe there are. Particularly for the examples that are more than a simple circle.
JD, Your remarks will be surrounded by ****
***We know for a fact that crop circles are made by man.***
Then you go on to say,
****But no, man, you're not going to be able to prove every single crop cirlce in the world.****
Ok, fair enough.
****Obviously, if 999 crop cirlces were made by man, it is most probable that all 1000 were.****
I absolutely agree,....."probable".
****Because once you find a cause for so many, it should, in your mind, cancel out the original notion that UFOs were creating them. ****
UFO's?
Who are you talking to?
I have made no such claim that these were made by UFO's.
****To now assume that there could possibly be one or two made by aliens is an outlandish claim with no base in fact or reality.****
Again, who are you speaking to?
I have made no such claim that these are UFO's.
****That is fine, but you must understand that your stance is one that lacks any foundation. We have proof of man creating crop cirlces, and no proof of aliens creating them.****
Seriously, who are you debating?
****You compare a thing like crop cirlces to the preperation for a shuttle launch? First of all, checking to see if a computer is working properly does not compare to the idea of proving a thing such as crop circles. There are variables when it comes to computers, but there are none when it comes to this...****
I compare the importance of knowing the 1000th scenario when the outcome carries significant importance, one of life, and one of discoveriing truth.
Neither one can be taken lightly in my opinion.
Again, another claim stated in the positive, "there are no variables"......prove it.
****When you have overwhelming evidence, you can't just hold out on the last example and hope for the best. You have to, at some point, take common sense into account. Obviously, if 999 crop cirlces were made by man, it is most probable that all 1000 were.****
Again, I absoultely agree that it is "probable".
And I understand how practicality and common sense are neccessary to function in everyday life.
I know that it's possible I could get into a car accident if I leave my house, but it's not going to prevent me from ever leaving my house.
Why, because I have gone out the last 999 times and have not had an accident, so I can assume I'm not going to have one today.
However, it is not a fact.
I get the neccessity for assumption and accepting probabilities in everyday life, including the assumption that if man made 999 of the circles, that he may have indeed made the last one as well, but it is not fact until proven.
And remember, this arbitrary number of 999 out of 1000 is just that, arbitrary.
I'm sure there are many more circles unaccounted for in that ratio.
****Think of it this way, instead...someone discovers a cure for AIDS, and 999 patients out of 1000 are cured after taking it. Do you then refuse to release the vaccine because it did not work on one out of 1000 patients? No, you scream at the top of your lungs "We've found a friggin' cure for AIDS, bitches! YES!" You don't "reserve your judgement" on the matter, because the evidence is overwhelming. The same applies to the crop circle phenominon. If 999 crop cirlces are made by man, the 1000th was made by man. It is simple.****
Again, of course, this is dealing with practicality. Dam rights get that vaccine out to the people.
However, if indeed 1 in that group of 1000 is not cured, or even has a severe reaction and dies, you can not make a claim that "All cases of aids are cured with this vaccine".
You can say that most, or 99% of the cases are cured, as this is the truth, but not all.
And I must point out that there is a difference in withholding a final judgement and withholding action.
By my withholding a final judgement on the crop circle phenomena it is in no way causing me to become inactive in my daily life.
I could reserve my final judgement that this vaccine is the end all, be all cure for aids and will cure every single case, but with the evidence thus far I could continue to take progressive action of dispersing the vaccine in spite of withholding that final judgement....it is unnessary to jump to such a conclusion that this will for a fact cure every single case to make a decision to distribute this to those who may benefit.
****You remain open because of an unfounded claim made by people who are inclined to believe that Earth has been visited by extra-terrestrials. How does that make sense, momentum? How is that scientific? Granted, you are entitled to your opinion, but please do not try to present it in a scientific way when you are in fact reserving judgement based on a claim that has no evidence whatsoever. ****
Wrong, to me, these crop circles are just that....crop circles.
No more, no less.
Some one tells me they are all made by man with ropes and boards....prove it.
Someone tells me they are made from aliens....prove it.
Until then, they are just crop circles, some of them proven to be made by man, and the "possibility" that they were all made by man,....but not fact.
****If I said to you "I think Chi power is creating the crop cirlces" would you still reserve judgement until someone could prove that every single crop circle in the world is NOT created by Chi power?****
Again, it is the responsibility of the person making any claim in the affirmative to be able to prove it.
You would be making a claim that "your chi power is making those crop cirles", and with such a claim I would ask you to prove it.
Until then, they will simply remain crop circles.
Funny thing is, I understand where your coming from.
***We know for a fact that crop circles are made by man.***
Then you go on to say,
****But no, man, you're not going to be able to prove every single crop cirlce in the world.****
Ok, fair enough.
****Obviously, if 999 crop cirlces were made by man, it is most probable that all 1000 were.****
I absolutely agree,....."probable".
****Because once you find a cause for so many, it should, in your mind, cancel out the original notion that UFOs were creating them. ****
UFO's?
Who are you talking to?
I have made no such claim that these were made by UFO's.
****To now assume that there could possibly be one or two made by aliens is an outlandish claim with no base in fact or reality.****
Again, who are you speaking to?
I have made no such claim that these are UFO's.
****That is fine, but you must understand that your stance is one that lacks any foundation. We have proof of man creating crop cirlces, and no proof of aliens creating them.****
Seriously, who are you debating?
****You compare a thing like crop cirlces to the preperation for a shuttle launch? First of all, checking to see if a computer is working properly does not compare to the idea of proving a thing such as crop circles. There are variables when it comes to computers, but there are none when it comes to this...****
I compare the importance of knowing the 1000th scenario when the outcome carries significant importance, one of life, and one of discoveriing truth.
Neither one can be taken lightly in my opinion.
Again, another claim stated in the positive, "there are no variables"......prove it.
****When you have overwhelming evidence, you can't just hold out on the last example and hope for the best. You have to, at some point, take common sense into account. Obviously, if 999 crop cirlces were made by man, it is most probable that all 1000 were.****
Again, I absoultely agree that it is "probable".
And I understand how practicality and common sense are neccessary to function in everyday life.
I know that it's possible I could get into a car accident if I leave my house, but it's not going to prevent me from ever leaving my house.
Why, because I have gone out the last 999 times and have not had an accident, so I can assume I'm not going to have one today.
However, it is not a fact.
I get the neccessity for assumption and accepting probabilities in everyday life, including the assumption that if man made 999 of the circles, that he may have indeed made the last one as well, but it is not fact until proven.
And remember, this arbitrary number of 999 out of 1000 is just that, arbitrary.
I'm sure there are many more circles unaccounted for in that ratio.
****Think of it this way, instead...someone discovers a cure for AIDS, and 999 patients out of 1000 are cured after taking it. Do you then refuse to release the vaccine because it did not work on one out of 1000 patients? No, you scream at the top of your lungs "We've found a friggin' cure for AIDS, bitches! YES!" You don't "reserve your judgement" on the matter, because the evidence is overwhelming. The same applies to the crop circle phenominon. If 999 crop cirlces are made by man, the 1000th was made by man. It is simple.****
Again, of course, this is dealing with practicality. Dam rights get that vaccine out to the people.
However, if indeed 1 in that group of 1000 is not cured, or even has a severe reaction and dies, you can not make a claim that "All cases of aids are cured with this vaccine".
You can say that most, or 99% of the cases are cured, as this is the truth, but not all.
And I must point out that there is a difference in withholding a final judgement and withholding action.
By my withholding a final judgement on the crop circle phenomena it is in no way causing me to become inactive in my daily life.
I could reserve my final judgement that this vaccine is the end all, be all cure for aids and will cure every single case, but with the evidence thus far I could continue to take progressive action of dispersing the vaccine in spite of withholding that final judgement....it is unnessary to jump to such a conclusion that this will for a fact cure every single case to make a decision to distribute this to those who may benefit.
****You remain open because of an unfounded claim made by people who are inclined to believe that Earth has been visited by extra-terrestrials. How does that make sense, momentum? How is that scientific? Granted, you are entitled to your opinion, but please do not try to present it in a scientific way when you are in fact reserving judgement based on a claim that has no evidence whatsoever. ****
Wrong, to me, these crop circles are just that....crop circles.
No more, no less.
Some one tells me they are all made by man with ropes and boards....prove it.
Someone tells me they are made from aliens....prove it.
Until then, they are just crop circles, some of them proven to be made by man, and the "possibility" that they were all made by man,....but not fact.
****If I said to you "I think Chi power is creating the crop cirlces" would you still reserve judgement until someone could prove that every single crop circle in the world is NOT created by Chi power?****
Again, it is the responsibility of the person making any claim in the affirmative to be able to prove it.
You would be making a claim that "your chi power is making those crop cirles", and with such a claim I would ask you to prove it.
Until then, they will simply remain crop circles.
Funny thing is, I understand where your coming from.
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SkinWalker said:
Skin, I really respect your level of intellect.
You have actually helped me to improve my ability over the years to discern any claims that come out and not accept them at face value just because someone says it is so, that goes for the woo hoos and the skeptics.
No probabilities, no possibilities, just cold hard facts baby!
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