Any atheists here who were once believers?

[Sarkus]

Where does the sense of right or wrong come from, and why do you apply it?

It seems to come from society (nurture), and our genetics - i.e. we are societal animals through our genes, and to live in a society we need a relatively common sense of what is right and wrong. Our "nurture" provides the fine-tuning.

If there was no God as the atheist religion preaches I would have become the most Evil Beast one would have ever known.

First, there is no atheist religion, and your attempt to provoke through stating such is just flaming.
Second, the rest of this statement is quite possibly the most frightening thing I have heard on this site, and suggest that you seek professional psychological help.

Could the Devil, Satan, himself never convert to become a follower of God?

Who is to say that Satan is not doing God's work by providing the tests through which we are judged? In their way they perhaps already are followers of God.

 

[(Q)]

If there was no God as the atheist religion preaches I would have become the most Evil Beast one would have ever known.

In other words, you admit to not having the ability to reason and rationalize, that you're unable to think for yourself and must be told how to behave based on rewards and punishments. That you could easily murder people and not give a rat's patootie.

Obviously, that is not the case and you know it, so don't try to feed any bs about becoming evil just because your God doesn't exist.

 

[(Q)]

Who knows the secrets of the believer's heart ...

The question is, who cares?

 

[wynn]

The question is, who cares?

You obviously do, since you take part in such threads.

 

[geeser]

I haven't followed the story fully but the security around the White House shot that lady recently. "To shoot someone dead" sounds like harm, but did they do right or wrong?
it is not as simple as you suggest.

Morality is relative, I think it was wrong however I don't know the "full story". If only one person existed there would be no need for morality, we only have morality in order for society to live together.
The basic ethics of reciprocity, is what I base my life on. "Don't do to others what you would not like done to you." I don't follow the biblical or Islamic version, as it looks similar but its not as good. Christianity and Islam tends to promote the concept of inflicting on others what you think is good for them. It does not reflect tolerance but attempts to persuade and change, by force. Mine is one of true tolerance. It is the one of passivity, of live and let live. Let others believe what they like.

 

[Robittybob1]

In other words, you admit to not having the ability to reason and rationalize, that you're unable to think for yourself and must be told how to behave based on rewards and punishments. That you could easily murder people and not give a rat's patootie.

Obviously, that is not the case and you know it, so don't try to feed any bs about becoming evil just because your God doesn't exist.

The Mafia, the Triads and the like, do they care how many they kill for power and greed. That was my choice, my dilemma - Crime boss or Crime fighter, and the choice depended on whether God was real or not?

 

[Billy T]

... Morality involves intelligent, social, human actors. Since morality is inherently social, it is not to be found anywhere "in nature" outside of human societies (barring the existence of intelligent life elsewhere). ...

Don't be so chauvinistic. Drop the word "human" from your post. ALL social animals evolve to some degree ideas about fairness, honesty, moral behavior, (and, like humans, cheat / violate these "moral rules" when the probable cost to them is less than the expected benefit).

from http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...unny-Stories&p=3093358&viewfull=1#post3093358 ...
for laughs and fundamental truths* exposed see this video: http://www.upworthy.com/2-monkeys-were-paid-unequally-see-what-happens-next?g=3

* including the basis for the Wall Street demonstrations / protests by mainly well off America compared to 95% of humanity.

Another "truth" well illustrated, but not mentioned, is the strong tendency to blame oneself for failing to do assigned task correctly when the promised or expected reward is not given (earned). I.e. after monkey did task (give rock to experimenter) and was not rewarded as expected the next time he was allowed to earn a reward, he first tested the rock to see if it was a "good solid rock" before giving it. I think he assumed that in the prior trial, his rock given was not good enough to earn the desired reward. - I.e. he assumed he did not do that prior task correctly. Recall this when things don't work out as you had hoped - Fault may be with "bad luck" or others, not with yourself.

See also the link in next post for other social animals, especially the one with elephants where one elephant discovers how to "free load" on the efforts of the other.

For an example of "monkey lying" note: Monkeys have several verbalizations with distinct meanings. One indicates a ground based threat like a tiger, another an air based threat, like a hawk that could take a baby, etc. The pack was moving thru a berry field in a relatively open plane, but the older monkey could not quite keep up - by time he got to the next bush, most of the berries were gone. So he gave the tiger warning cry an rest of the pack ran ahead to scamper up a distant tree, while he continued slow movement thru the berry field with "easy pickings."

Even honey bees have assigned roles and do not shirk their duty. I raised a hive near the edge of a woods I owned and went to in the fall to cut up fallen limbs for fire wood, loading up my pick-up truck. Before entering the woods one day I sprinkled a little flour on one bee doing "ventilation duty" (feet clamped to the landing ledge with wings beating to move air into the hive). He was still there, doing his duty, more than an hour later when I got ready to leave. Bees in winter, when air temp drops below 42 F (if 35 year old memory is not failing me), form a bee ball in center of the hive to keep warm. Those on the outside struggle to the center rubbing against those that were there which are now struggling to move to the outs side. I read several books on bees - everyone who can and has an interest in nature, should keep a hive thru a winter and two summers at least.

SUMMARY: Evolution has made ALL SOCIAL ANIMALS have "morals" - Long term group beneficial behavior patterns. Humans are no exception, nothing special in this regard just selected for this by Darwin's observations.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

But you don't actually know if God exists. No one can prove randomness exists, hence, free will which is a prerequisite for God.

So, in the end, all your posting is lies. In fact, every religion is a lie.

:EDIT: late posting

 

[Robittybob1]

Morality is relative, .....
The basic ethics of reciprocity, is what I base my life on. "Don't do to others what you would not like done to you." ....

Just leaving that thought, how would you cope if your neighbour robbed all the contents of your workshop? So you've been robbed what do you do?
Your neighbour runs off with your wife, what do you do? You can be good to and apply your philosophy but it won't protect you.

 

[gmilam]

Well I hope you are not blind.
Where does the sense of right or wrong come from, and why do you apply it? If there was no God as the atheist religion preaches I would have become the most Evil Beast one would have ever known. Could the Devil, Satan, himself never convert to become a follower of God?

Don't you have a conscience?

 

[wegs]

Morality is relative, I think it was wrong however I don't know the "full story". If only one person existed there would be no need for morality, we only have morality in order for society to live together.
The basic ethics of reciprocity, is what I base my life on. "Don't do to others what you would not like done to you." I don't follow the biblical or Islamic version, as it looks similar but its not as good. Christianity and Islam tends to promote the concept of inflicting on others what you think is good for them. It does not reflect tolerance but attempts to persuade and change, by force. Mine is one of true tolerance. It is the one of passivity, of live and let live. Let others believe what they like.

I try to live like this, as well...''live and let live.'' Even when following Christianity, I applied this concept. Christianity, in my view, doesn't allow for someone to come to their own mindset of what is right and wrong, but rather creates a leaning towards reward vs punishment. Now, in life, there can be rewards for performing good deeds, but one should wish to serve others, merely because it is the right thing to do. While Christianity attempts to promote compassion and tolerance, it doesn't. The Bible is riddled with conflicting stories and contradictions that support judging others against a particular set of rules. Homosexuality comes to mind. The Bible teaches that God is against this, and that it will be judged as a sin, should someone claim to be homosexual. There is the tired mantra of ...''God loves the sinner, hates the sin.'' But at the end of the day, when we watch news stories about 'Christians' standing in front of a particular courthouse holding up signs ''God hates gays,'' apparently the message from the Bible is being interpreted as a license to hate others. To judge others.

Of course those same people who promote hate speech, don't see it as such. They see it as 'witnessing' for their faith. And in some cases, sadly...they are. lol

Performing acts of kindness should come from within a person's heart, not from a fear of what might happen if you don't. This isn't to say atheists and non religious types don't struggle on a daily basis, to live lives of service to others. We are all human, and thus, there will be daily struggles to put others' needs above our own. To do unto others as we wish done to us. To love our neighbors, as ourselves.

But, I don't like the notion that one is potentially incapable of making a moral decision, without a Deity's guidance. It simply isn't true. If it were true, then we wouldn't read studies of how atheists are more philanthropic than their religious counterparts. Studies and stats don't lie. Just goes to show that people are capable of doing the right things in life, without having to believe in 'a god.'

 

[Robittybob1]

But you don't actually know if God exists. No one can prove randomness exists, hence, free will which is a prerequisite for God.

So, in the end, all your posting is lies. In fact, every religion is a lie.

:EDIT: late posting

That is what I set out to find out, and God showed up. I'm telling the forum about it on the Christian Song thread but I have to take care to not preach, but I'm just telling my life story, so is that preaching? I need to define preaching.

 

[Robittybob1]

Don't you have a conscience?

You can ignore a conscience, you can readjust it can't you. You can harden it.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

That is what I set out to find out, and God showed up. I'm telling the forum about it on the Christian Song thread but I have to take care to not preach, but I'm just telling my life story, so is that preaching? I need to define preaching.

And I totally believe you, REALLY!

 

[wegs]

Don't be so chauvinistic. Drop the word "human" from your post. ALL social animals evolve to some degree ideas about fairness, honesty, moral behavior, (and, like humans, cheat / violate these "moral rule" when the probable cost to them is less than the expected benefit).See also the link in next post for other social animals, especially the one with elephants where one elephant discovers how to "free load" on the efforts of the other.

For an example of "money lying" note: Monkeys have several verbalizations with distinct meanings. One indicates a ground based threat like a tiger, another an air based threat, like a hawk that could take a baby, etc. The pack was moving thru a berry field in a relatively open plane, but the older monkey could not quite keep up - by time he got to the next bush, most of the berries were gone. So he gave the tiger warning cry an rest of the pack ran ahead to scamper up a distant tree, while he continued slow movement thru the berry field with "easy pickings."

Even honey bees have assigned roles and do not shirk their duty. I raised a hive near the edge of a woods I owned and went to in the fall to cut up fallen limbs for fire wood, loading up my pick-up truck. Before entering the woods one day I sprinkled a little flour on one bee doing "ventilation duty" (feet clamped to the landing ledge with wings beating to move air into the hive. He was still there, doing his duty, more than an hour later when I got ready to leave. Bees in winter, when air temp drops below 42 F (if 35 year old memory is not failing me), form a bee ball in center of the hive to keep warm. Those on the outside struggle to the center rubbing against those that were there which are now struggling to move to the outs side. I read several books on bees - everyone who can and has an interest in nature, should keep a hive thru a winter and two summers at least.

SUMMARY: Evolution has made ALL SOCIAL ANIMAL have "morals" - Long term group beneficial behavior patterns. Humans are no exception, nothing special in this regard just selected for this by Darwin's observations.

This is an excellent post, and it points to the fact that our consciences are a product of evolution. (Of course, there are other theories to that end, when one is religious, but I'm just agreeing with your point here.)

To me, removing religion from my life...and following a more agnostic approach if you will, to how I view spirituality...has left me believing that I'm solely responsible for my actions. Not that I didn't believe this as a Christian, but Christianity can sometimes feel like a crutch for when you are not making sound decisions. You 'pray' to God to do better the next day. It can all seem well and good at the time, but religion doesn't breed morality, in and of itself is my point. People will always decide for themselves right from wrong, whether they are religious or not. Passing off good decisions as though they came from God and passing off bad decisions as though they were because the person ''stepped away'' from God, is just setting one's self up to not take full responsibility for their own good/bad choices.

 

[(Q)]

The Mafia, the Triads and the like, do they care how many they kill for power and greed.

LOL. So, you actually believe they do the things they do because of a lack of God in their lives? Hilarious.

That was my choice, my dilemma - Crime boss or Crime fighter, and the choice depended on whether God was real or not?

Way too funny. :roflmao:

 

[(Q)]

That is what I set out to find out, and God showed up.

You are lying, we know it and you know it.

 

[(Q)]

Just leaving that thought, how would you cope if your neighbour robbed all the contents of your workshop? So you've been robbed what do you do?
Your neighbour runs off with your wife, what do you do? You can be good to and apply your philosophy but it won't protect you.

If we turn to the Bible, we would immediately have them killed horribly without question and set their remains on fire to burn for an eternity.

Or, we call the police. Duh.

 

[Robittybob1]

..... Christianity, in my view, doesn't allow for someone to come to their own mindset of what is right and wrong, but rather creates a leaning towards reward vs punishment. ....

Performing acts of kindness should come from within a person's heart, not from a fear of what might happen if you don't. This isn't to say atheists and non religious types don't struggle on a daily basis, to live lives of service to others. We are all human, and thus, there will be daily struggles to put others' needs above our own. To do unto others as we wish done to us. To love our neighbors, as ourselves.

But, I don't like the notion that one is potentially incapable of making a moral decision, without a Deity's guidance. ....'

It was a moment in my life, a crossroad, this way or that way. I was already involved with the gangs and crime was a way of life for us then. Was that the way forward or not? OK the question was asked when I was about to go to University (18 years).
The most of them stayed with the gangs and some did well, and others got life sentences for murder or long jail sentences for bank robberies etc.
This must be a choice for a number of males, that have gang associations.

 

[Robittybob1]

You are lying, we know it and you know it.

We have to learn not to defame each other. "You are lying" is defamation in my opinion. Prove it or shut up.