Any atheists here who were once believers?

wynn,

So he's basically implying to have supreme knowledge,

Erm, no. Belief in God comes about because one has no knowledge (what to speak of supreme knowledge). Didn't talk about this earlier?

...or insight into God's identity.

I'll admit to this.

And for the most part, there just is no talking to such people. They believe they are right, and nothing gets through to them.

Aw! Giving up so easily? Or am I just getting in the way of your discussion with Sarkus?

Whether they really have supreme knowledge or insight - that's another matter.

To be continued.......

jan.
 
Question for Jan Ardena:

What reasons do you have for believing that anything exists apart from nature?

Alternatively, if you assert that God is part of nature, is there any objective method by which we can know that God exists?

JamesR, this whole excersise is a hypothetical scenario. If atheism was true, then nature would be all in all, and even if that does not, in reality, explain the atheism scenario, let's just go with it, so we can get right into the heart of the psychology of those for whom atheism is true But it is true for some.

If only nature exists, then everything is an expression, or a part of nature. Right?
If within this reality, God is believed in, then belief in God is also part of nature. Right?

jan.
 
James R,

Morality involves intelligent, social, human actors. Since morality is inherently social, it is not to be found anywhere "in nature" outside of human societies (barring the existence of intelligent life elsewhere).

Are humans purely natural? If yes then morality is an aspect of nature. But it isn't.
Why are there different levels of morality. Why do some humans have no morals, and some do?

It is wrong to assert that an atheist can have no real sense of what is good or bad action. Actions have consequences. On the basis of utility alone, we can say that some actions are good and others bad.

No it's not.

Murder, rape and eating babies are all morally wrong in part because they are socially limiting. A person who murders others or rapes or eats babies will be ostracised from society. Nobody wants to live with a murderer or rapist or baby killer.

Such a person would also be feared, and would be successful in finding a mate to reproduce.

Who says that murder is wrong? Answer: we all do, as social animals.

Why do we?
It doesn't need to be wrong to survive.

The idea that morality is handed down to us by a divine being is deeply flawed.

I didn't say that. You should read what I write rather than assume.

No doubt you are aware of the argument first put by Plato in his Euthyphro dialogue. Are actions good and bad because God says they are, or are they good and bad by some independent measure? If you adopt the first position, you rapidly tie yourself in illogical knots.

Vaguely.
They refer to the gods (if my memory serves)?

jan.
 
If only nature exists, then everything is an expression, or a part of nature. Right?
If within this reality, God is believed in, then belief in God is also part of nature. Right?

Yes Jan, the BELIEF of God is part of nature as is the BELIEF of anything else one can conjure from their physical brains, which is where BELIEFS reside, in the physical brain, hence God exists only within the physical brain. God has not been shown to exist in nature.

Therefore, God is actually YOU, your ego, your self and nothing more.

Ever wonder why even Christians don't agree on Christianity? That is because their egos don't agree with each other.
 
Okay, I'll play:

Scriptures?

How do you decide what to count as scriptures and what not?

Why Srila Prabhupada's version of the Bhagavad-gita, why not Srila BV Narayana Maharaja's, or Gandhi's, or Srila Sridhar's Maharaja's, or Swami BV Tripuari's or yet some other version?
 
Okay, I'll play:



How do you decide what to count as scriptures and what not?

Why Srila Prabhupada's version of the Bhagavad-gita, why not Srila BV Narayana Maharaja's, or Gandhi's, or Srila Sridhar's Maharaja's, or Swami BV Tripuari's or yet some other version?

Exactly.

And often, people ''prune'' the Bible down to whatever suits their particular worldview. So, is it a book that holds objective truths or not? I don't believe it is, that's not to say I can tell another person to follow that same belief.

Which to your point Jan...you asked me and you have asked others, do we believe God exists as we are reading these posts? If I were to say yes, does that mean he does? If I say no, does that mean he does not?

Who decides? You or me, Jan? You or someone who is Buddhist? You or someone who is Jewish? You or someone who follows Islam? Can everyone have a completely different view of who God is, and all still be 'right?' If so, then it proves (actually serves as evidence) that if one believes in God's existence, how can that be based on objective truths? For those who are religious and/or spiritual, who knows for certain, if God is who they believe he is or not. If he can be all things to all people, then he can be nothing at all to an atheist.

I'm not so sure I've actually chosen the path I'm on, as much as I've stumbled upon it, simply by following the fallacies of Christianity. (and realizing that in order to follow one school of thought as it relates to God, I'd have to denounce either to myself or to others, that other religions are 'wrong.')
 
James R,

Are humans purely natural? If yes then morality is an aspect of nature. But it isn't.

What do you mean it isn't?

Why are there different levels of morality. Why do some humans have no morals, and some do?

Why do some humans have sight while others don't?

No it's not.

Compelling counter-argument. Care to elaborate on why it's wrong to say that atheists have no sense of right and wrong?
 
Yes, because he believes he believes in God, as God really is, and not as how he imagines God to be.
But he must accept, then, one of the following (I am not aware of any other logical conclusions)...
(1) that either God is not as he imagines - in which case he must be aware that God is not as he claims he imagines and thus he is lying as to what his true concept of God actually is (even if his concept is along the lines of "that which imparts a feeling") and that he disagrees that he believes in his concept merely to disagree, and if not lying then he is ignorant of what he is implying.
or (2) he has no real comprehension of God - in which case he is/was agnostic, yet chooses to believe in God despite that lack of knowledge.

There may be other possibilities, and perhaps you can suggest some?
 
Sarkus,

Just a quickie.

Does God exist for you, as you read this post?
God exists for me the same as anything else I have no knowledge of: I can not say God does or does not exist, but my actions are not predicated on a belief in God.
 
I'm interested in hearing the answer to this, as well. Good question.

Since we're on the subject....(how does an atheist differentiate between right and wrong?)

http://asktheatheist.com/?p=776
If it harms neither you nor anybody else then it must be right, if it does the opposite then it has to be wrong.

Regarding morality:

1. Empathy and Consideration of Effect: Humans have the ability to comprehend another's experience, feelings, etc. Using this ability one can consider whether one's actions will be "correct" or "good" by the person(s) affected by such action. Such consideration of effect prior to action is part of any rational direction of one's actions.

2. Utilitarianism: "All action should be directed toward achieving the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people."

3. Naturalistic: "…any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well, or nearly as well developed, as in man. . . . " – Charles Darwin.

4. Social Contract: We agree to standards of conduct, the "rules of society" in order to gain the advantages of society. Which is similar to Utilitarianism.

5. Chaos Theory and Consideration of Effect: I find that the implications of Chaos theory as it applies to morality are profound. Consider what is commonly known as "The Butterfly Effect", that is the fact that in a Complex Dynamic System small changes in input can cause profound changes. The basic implication is that any action taken may have drastic consequences. Responsibility, even if only to oneself, therefore demand that consideration as to the impact of one's actions be given.

I think that Einstein stated it fairly well, "A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
 
Compelling counter-argument. Care to elaborate on why it's wrong to say that atheists have no sense of right and wrong?

Well I hope you are not blind.
Where does the sense of right or wrong come from, and why do you apply it? If there was no God as the atheist religion preaches I would have become the most Evil Beast one would have ever known. Could the Devil, Satan, himself never convert to become a follower of God?
 
If it harms neither you nor anybody else then it must be right, if it does the opposite then it has to be wrong.
I haven't followed the story fully but the security around the White House shot that lady recently. "To shoot someone dead" sounds like harm, but did they do right or wrong?
it is not as simple as you suggest.
 
I think that Einstein stated it fairly well, "A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
I agree with him; great points to consider, for everyone no matter what belief system one holds as 'truth.' We all can find common ground here. :)

If there was no God as the atheist religion preaches I would have become the most Evil Beast one would have ever known.

Really? :eek:
Why do you believe this? You feel that the only reason you live a moral life, is because you fear God?

Final question: You don't believe that the forming of our consciences came as a result of evolution?
 
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