Any atheists here who were once believers?

wegs said:
That's really not my sole reason, Jan. But since you're asking, sufficient evidence isn't hearsay of others, passed down over the centuries. The Bible isn't factual evidence, it's a collection of stories (based on hearsay) that one can choose to believe or not. I choose not to believe it, for I don't think it's truthful. I think it has some moral merit to it, but that's about it. If God exists, I don't need a religion to inform me of how I should view him, or see him. That's just my take on it.

And that's not exclusive to the bible. All faiths and belief systems are based on believing something you can't verify or have proof of. Even if someone feels a powerful emotion or a great sense of joy from serving who he or she believes God to be, that doesn't mean I need to follow it. Someone else's opinion of God, isn't evidence to me of his existence. That's all, really.

It's a personal choice and I respect everyone's right to live as they wish.
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But that is not atheism is it? It puts you in a very small group but it is not atheism.
 
wegs said:
That's really not my sole reason, Jan. But since you're asking, sufficient evidence isn't hearsay of others, passed down over the centuries. The Bible isn't factual evidence, it's a collection of stories (based on hearsay) that one can choose to believe or not. I choose not to believe it, for I don't think it's truthful. I think it has some moral merit to it, but that's about it. If God exists, I don't need a religion to inform me of how I should view him, or see him. That's just my take on it.

And that's not exclusive to the bible. All faiths and belief systems are based on believing something you can't verify or have proof of. Even if someone feels a powerful emotion or a great sense of joy from serving who he or she believes God to be, that doesn't mean I need to follow it. Someone else's opinion of God, isn't evidence to me of his existence. That's all, really.

It's a personal choice and I respect everyone's right to live as they wish.
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How did you arrive at:

The Bible is supposed to be ''factual evidence''.
What constitutes factual evidence.
That the Bible stories are ''hearsay''.
That the Bible is not ''truthfull''.
That you don't need a religion to inform you of how to view God.

Just for starters. :)

jan.
 
I believe that too, geeser. I've come to my own opinion that Jesus if he existed, was not who the Bible claims he was, and was perhaps executed for reasons we may never know. But these are just my thoughts to it. Doubtful a wealthy religion could have been formed following "just" an ordinary man. Making him out to be divine makes the story sound holy, and extraordinary. But, again...just my thoughts to that end.

geeser said:
I believe a man probably named jesus may have existed, an itinerant rabbi who when around preaching. However there is no evidence for such a person, and most definitely none for the jesus portrayed in the bible. So on that you can be assured he never died for anybody. Oh and that statement, that jesus died for X, has much deep biblical meaning or lack there of, when you try to find out what it is he supposedly died for.
There were many such preachers at the time some even called themselves the messiah, yet the is no contemporaneous evidence about a jesus person, yet I willing to accept that he may of existed.
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Sarkus said:
Because on day 1 she probably hadn't reached the tipping point of saying "yes, I'm an atheist."
But it also speaks volumes that you would have to wait to be told that someone is an atheist before realising such.
If nothing else this should help demonstrate that other than a single belief (or lack thereof) we are not necessarily dissimilar.
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I wasn't looking for a wishy washy Christian but a dragon slayer.
 
Jan Ardena said:
How did you arrive at:

The Bible is supposed to be ''factual evidence''.
What constitutes factual evidence.
That the Bible stories are ''hearsay''.
That the Bible is not ''truthfull''.
That you don't need a religion to inform you of how to view God.

Just for starters. :)

jan.
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Jesus told us the truth is in Heaven not in the Bible. Wegs is right.
 
Robittybob1 said:
I wasn't looking for a wishy washy Christian but a dragon slayer.
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Then perhaps the error is with you for jumping to conclusions.
Robittybob1 said:
Jesus told us the truth is in Heaven not in the Bible. Wegs is right.
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If wegs is right and the bible is not necessarily truthful, how do you know that what Jesus says, regarding where truth is to be found, is true, given that the bible is our source for what Jesus says?
 
Sarkus said:
Then perhaps the error is with you for jumping to conclusions.
If wegs is right and the bible is not necessarily truthful, how do you know that what Jesus says, regarding where truth is to be found, is true, given that the bible is our source for what Jesus says?
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I have read from the Book of truth, I've seen it, it is different to what is in the Bible.
 
Sarkus said:
Are you saying that "un-conversions" are impossible, given the power of the god you believe in?
If so, how does the reality that it happens enable you to still believe in the power of that god?
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You've brought this up in other threads too, and I want to say something about it here as well:

The main reason why some of us think that some people who identify themselves as "ex-Christians" or "former theists" never really believed in God, why they never really deconverted because they never really were converts to begin with, is based on how they describe their past situation, their past beliefs.

The way most people whom I've heard of or read from who now identify themselves as "former believers," "former theists" and such talk about their past beliefs - I would generally qualify their past beliefs as fanatic, as cultist. I really don't think that fanaticism and cultism are to be counted as religiosity or theism. Someone who de-converted from fanaticism or from cultism has not de-converted from religiosity.

To be clear, this is not to say that a particular religious organization is fanatic or cultist. Within the same organization, there are some people who are normal, ordinary believers, and some who are fanatic, cultist. Fanaticism, cultism are attitudes of a particular person, not necessarily of a religious organization.

Simply joining - or leaving - a particular religious organization does not amount to conversion - or deconversion. To think it does is incredibly shallow. To think so also goes against the doctrines of some religious organizations; a notable example is Catholicism where to be counted as a member of the church before God, a person doesn't even need to be baptized into the Catholic church.

I'll believe that genuine deconversion is possible once I find someone who really was a genuine believer, and not just a neurotic, a cultist, a fanatic, or someone who simply was part of a religious organization because their family was too.

And you'll probably object that I am retroactively raising the bar. I'm not. If you visit a religious organization, at any point in time you can find a variety of people there, who are at different levels, who are there for different reasons. And just because they are formally members of said religious organizations, doesn't automatically say much about the actual state of their faith/belief. In fact, in some religious traditions, you can find explicit warnings to the effect that there may be people present in a religious organization who seem to be members, but actually aren't.
 
wegs - the thread is yours but the point i was trying to make is I've been gnawed at all day and now I'm done.

To be a partner in this quest that i was wanting you to share it would have required ......, and i don't think you had it in the end, but I am always willing to change my mind.
 
Robittybob1 said:
Jesus told us the truth is in Heaven not in the Bible. Wegs is right.
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Come on Rob! At least try and answer each point and see where it leads.

Jesus actually said: The Kingdom of God is within.
For a theist The Kingdom of God is the place to be, not heaven.

jan.
 
wegs said:
@ Jan;

Just an observation, I've noticed you don't waver in your faith. I've had exchanges with you elsewhere, and you remain steadfast and constant. I may not agree with your beliefs, or why you believe what you do, but you have unshakeable faith, as they say. Who am I to judge you? It's just...well, interesting to me. And, while you can be dogmatic at times, your message comes across with respect.

FWIW, I just wanted to say that it's neat to see someone of faith like you, still exists. You really believe what you believe.
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I find it interesting that you see it that way.

I think you are confusing the ability to discuss religious topics for faith.

Anyone with enough theological and religious knowledge can discuss religious topics, in great detail, with great precision. But this isn't necessarily faith. It's just a matter of having particular knowledge and the intellect to employ it in conversation.

Surely you've heard warnings such as "the devil is very skilled in quoting the Bible"!
 
wegs said:
Just a general comment:
There is an underlying current that pervades Christianity in a general sense, and I used to feel this way too, when I was following it. And it’s that Christians are on one side of the field and everyone else is on another, and you’re opponents. Christians feeling this incessant need to bring everyone to ‘their side.’ While the intentions might be well meaning, it’s a poor way to view the world…everyday waking up out of bed to ‘take on the world.’ It will only breed animosity, not harmony….and that is a problem I always found in Christianity. (in a general sense, certainly not everyone acts like this who is Christian)
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This is not limited to some particular denominations within Christianity. It's more like a general characteristic of the human population as such.
"We vs. they" is the basic tribal distinction, found all over the globe, all over time periods, all over different cultures, all over different socio-economic classes.
 
wynn said:
You've brought this up in other threads too, and I want to say something about it here as well:

The main reason why some of us think that some people who identify themselves as "ex-Christians" or "former theists" never really believed in God, why they never really deconverted because they never really were converts to begin with, is based on how they describe their past situation, their past beliefs.

The way most people whom I've heard of or read from who now identify themselves as "former believers," "former theists" and such talk about their past beliefs - I would generally qualify their past beliefs as fanatic, as cultist. I really don't think that fanaticism and cultism are to be counted as religiosity or theism. Someone who de-converted from fanaticism or from cultism has not de-converted from religiosity.

To be clear, this is not to say that a particular religious organization is fanatic or cultist. Within the same organization, there are some people who are normal, ordinary believers, and some who are fanatic, cultist. Fanaticism, cultism are attitudes of a particular person, not necessarily of a religious organization.

Simply joining - or leaving - a particular religious organization does not amount to conversion - or deconversion. To think it does is incredibly shallow. To think so also goes against the doctrines of some religious organizations; a notable example is Catholicism where to be counted as a member of the church before God, a person doesn't even need to be baptized into the Catholic church.

I'll believe that genuine deconversion is possible once I find someone who really was a genuine believer, and not just a neurotic, a cultist, a fanatic, or someone who simply was part of a religious organization because their family was too.

And you'll probably object that I am retroactively raising the bar. I'm not. If you visit a religious organization, at any point in time you can find a variety of people there, who are at different levels, who are there for different reasons. And just because they are formally members of said religious organizations, doesn't automatically say much about the actual state of their faith/belief. In fact, in some religious traditions, you can find explicit warnings to the effect that there may be people present in a religious organization who seem to be members, but actually aren't.
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This. Yes. :( I think you are right at least as far I consider my own thoughts to it. (at this point)
I've cried over this a lot by myself not so much that I left something behind, but that I'm slowly realizing I never really believed to begin with.

This post hits home for me more than anything you have said in this thread, so thank you.
 
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