Any atheists here who were once believers?

Mazulu said:
Baleron! This is me crushing your belief in materialism! Some parts of reality are non physical, non material, spiritual.

SledgeHammerGlass.jpg
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Ouch!
 
Calm down boys - you fight and wegs and I will get banned. Bells warning.
Mazulu - I thought the photo represented too much violence. In fairness I think you should remove it.
 
Mazulu said:
Well, if a space-time has mechanisms that enforce physics constants, we can potentially gain access to those mechanisms, and change them, make them larger so that we can build a hyper-drive. But what if no mechanisms exist? What if the space-time continuum has immutable laws and constants that cannot be changed or even damaged or destroyed by entropy? Well then I can argue that the universe effectively has an immortal soul. Since we don't know where the big bang came from, but we expect its source to output things of a similar nature, then what about other immortal things? Like souls? In effect, a soul would have certain immutable characteristics that could not be changed, ever. A soul could change over the course of many incarnations, allowing the soul to learn new things and develop new habits and behaviors, but some parts of the soul (equivalent to laws of nature and physics constants) would be permanent and fixed.

If I don't beat these dumb oafs over the head with the God of the gaps, they won't go where I want them to go. I have them off balance at the moment. They are unwilling to admit that some parts of reality are invisible/undetectable. Some parts of reality are non-material.

Ideally, some of the smart people here might start to wonder just how much of reality is invisible and unmeasurable to us. From there, Spiritualism is just down the street. If there are lots of invisible/undetectable scientific phenomena, then why can't there be spirits?

I don't need a testable hypothesis. I just need to undermine dogmatic scientism. Then I win!
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Well, you shouldn't seek to "undermine" science lol but, I think you have very good ideas, but in order for science to accept them, they have to be testable. Let me ask you Mazulu...why do you want to die on this hill? Hmmm? :eek:
 
Let's just keep it OT. :)

Speaking of which...that website I mentioned earlier (atheistforums.org) ...I found a few de-conversion stories today; all three people left Christianity. Is this a microcosm of something larger you think? Will Christianity ever face extinction?
 
wegs said:
Let's just keep it OT. :)
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There were 7 men marooned in a life raft, so they killed weakest among them to remain alive. Finally they were rescued on a wild South Seas Island and there were only two left, and the strongest killed the weaker one to show the natives he meant business.
Were they atheists or Christians?

I was told this is a true story from WWII.
 
I've noticed that in these arguments the religious person (whether they know it or not) is generally insincere with their arguments.

This is because their mind isn't really open to change regardless of how the argument goes so they are just trying to win a debating point.

For example, when they say that believing in God and atheism are both just differing beliefs. They know that not believing in something isn't just a different belief but they make this argument anyway.

If they were having a serious argument with their kids (about something important) they wouldn't use such insincere logic. Therefore they don't really believe most of their arguments.

My second point is this. Religious people frequently make the argument that not everything is material, something that we can touch and see and therefore they are implying that religion or God is the same and are just as real.

The examples are generally God and love. Everyone knows, believes, feels love. They say they experience God in the same way and therefore God is just as real.

Again, this is just a gimmick however. Comparing God and love is comparing apples and oranges. There is no connection.

People believe in God and then sometimes later in life they no longer believe in God. At one point they may claim to see him and talk to him and say that he is just as real (to them) as love.

Later they may no longer be a believer. They still believe in love however. No one becomes a non-believer in love.

Even among fairly hard core believers they say that they have doubts and that it's even healthy to have doubts. They say they want "thinking" believers and it only makes them stronger.

However, there are no people who sometimes "have doubts" regarding love.

It's just not an honest comparison and that's my point. They aren't really being open and they aren't trying to be intellectually honest in these debates.

The only people who would do that are people who actually aren't sure and are having some cognitive dissonance regarding religion (as most anyone would have to have on such a subject unless they were totally delusional).
 
Robittybob1 said:
There were 7 men marooned in a life raft, so they killed weakest among them to remain alive. Finally they were rescued on a wild South Seas Island and there were only two left, and the strongest killed the weaker one to show the natives he meant business.
Were they atheists or Christians?

I was told this is a true story from WWII.
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I think they were all Christians except for the last survivor, he must have been an atheist.
 
Robittybob1 said:
There were 7 men marooned in a life raft, so they killed weakest among them to remain alive. Finally they were rescued on a wild South Seas Island and there were only two left, and the strongest killed the weaker one to show the natives he meant business.
Were they atheists or Christians?

I was told this is a true story from WWII.
Click to expand...

I see how u think, ok. So you think ppl for the most part, need a Moral Compass to guide them? Otherwise, they turn into savages?
 
Seattle said:
I've noticed that in these arguments the religious person (whether they know it or not) is generally insincere with their arguments.

....

For example, when they say that believing in God and atheism are both just differing beliefs. They know that not believing in something isn't just a different belief but they make this argument anyway.

.....
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Who in their right mind would say that believing in God and atheism are both just differing beliefs?
 
Seattle said:
I've noticed that in these arguments the religious person (whether they know it or not) is generally insincere with their arguments.

This is because their mind isn't really open to change regardless of how the argument goes so they are just trying to win a debating point.

For example, when they say that believing in God and atheism are both just differing beliefs. They know that not believing in something isn't just a different belief but they make this argument anyway.

If they were having a serious argument with their kids (about something important) they wouldn't use such insincere logic. Therefore they don't really believe most of their arguments.

My second point is this. Religious people frequently make the argument that not everything is material, something that we can touch and see and therefore they are implying that religion or God is the same and are just as real.

The examples are generally God and love. Everyone knows, believes, feels love. They say they experience God in the same way and therefore God is just as real.

Again, this is just a gimmick however. Comparing God and love is comparing apples and oranges. There is no connection.

People believe in God and then sometimes later in life they no longer believe in God. At one point they may claim to see him and talk to him and say that he is just as real (to them) as love.

Later they may no longer be a believer. They still believe in love however. No one becomes a non-believer in love.

Even among fairly hard core believers they say that they have doubts and that it's even healthy to have doubts. They say they want "thinking" believers and it only makes them stronger.

However, there are no people who sometimes "have doubts" regarding love.

It's just not an honest comparison and that's my point. They aren't really being open and they aren't trying to be intellectually honest in these debates.

The only people who would do that are people who actually aren't sure and are having some cognitive dissonance regarding religion (as most anyone would have to have on such a subject unless they were totally delusional).
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Wow, what a great post!
Interesting you say there is no connection between God and love. I've often wondered this...why do we attach humanity to a god? This isn't to say God is "hate" certainly. But if a god exists, maybe there is little more than a moral indifference to humanity.

Welcome to the site, btw.
 
wegs said:
I see how u think, ok. So you think ppl for the most part, need a Moral Compass to guide them? Otherwise, they turn into savages?
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When resources get short I don't know how humans would behave to be honest.

Would all the Buddhists be willing to die knowing they are just going to be reincarnated anyway?
Whereas a strong Darwinist must think it is the survival of the fittest, and they'd hope it was them.
 
wegs said:
Well, you shouldn't seek to "undermine" science lol but, I think you have very good ideas, but in order for science to accept them, they have to be testable. Let me ask you Mazulu...why do you want to die on this hill? Hmmm? :eek:
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Science is great. It's scientism that I want to crush. It is this attitude of animosity against religion and spirituality that I want to crush. Angels don't have to prove their existence to scientists, only to believers. Angels are spiritual beings. Non material things exist.
 
wegs,

Okay. Bare with me here.

You are observing my response to you right now. Okay?

What is it that is observing?

jan.
My body. Consciousness.
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You also observe your body, and you observe that you have consciousness.
But who/ what is observing?

jan.
 
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