Any atheists here who were once believers?

Mazulu said:
I want to ask why consciousness is so pre-occupied with life after death of the physical body.
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It isn't. Only those who are aware of their mortality seem to be. And even then, it seems to be a pretty primitive fear. I expect as the centuries and millennia go on, we'll abandon most of those concerns the way a child outgrows his fear of the dark.
 
Seattle said:
Not to answer for Wegs but basically "yes". We are all educated by our culture and therefore are all given advice on what may make us happier, more content.

There doesn't have to be a formalized ideology. Some people (apparently) just need for there to be rules and some don't.

I know two people who are intelligent and who could complete a project if you gave them one. One of them is very anal-retentive and they don't do well without specific instructions. If you give them specific instructions they will complete the task perfectly.

The other person will complete the task with minimal instruction once the scope of the project is explained to them.

One is more creative and is a better person to use when the rules aren't known and the other one is better to use when the rules are known and the task is tedious to most anyone else.

It's that way in philosophical life as well. Some can figure out how to lead a fulfilling life with just the cues given by their culture and some need a formalized regime.
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It's a matter of principle: Inasmuch is a person's happiness something entirely unique, idiosyncratic, something they have to figure out from scratch for themselves - and inasmuch are the workings of the universe such that there is in fact an objective path one can follow and become truly happy?


Secondly, you appear to have a lot of confidence in a particular culture'e ability to provide people with clues or more detailed instructions for happiness. The global social, economical and environmental crisis suggests otherwise.


Seattle said:
Yes, just do it. You can be respectful and have awe (nature) but you don't need to worship anything.
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The question was about having peace of mind despite not worshipping anyone or anything.

I'm talking about real peace of mind, not the kind of seeming peace that comes with anger, contempt, distraction or simply because one has had a good meal.
 
Balerion said:
Agreed. The notion that happiness requires worship is patently absurd.
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There certainly are kinds of happiness that don't require any worship or reverence.
The question is whether those kinds of happiness are the best there is.
 
wynn said:
It's a matter of principle: Inasmuch is a person's happiness something entirely unique, idiosyncratic, something they have to figure out from scratch for themselves - and inasmuch are the workings of the universe such that there is in fact an objective path one can follow and become truly happy?


Secondly, you appear to have a lot of confidence in a particular culture'e ability to provide people with clues or more detailed instructions for happiness. The global social, economical and environmental crisis suggests otherwise.




The question was about having peace of mind despite not worshipping anyone or anything.

I'm talking about real peace of mind, not the kind of seeming peace that comes with anger, contempt, distraction or simply because one has had a good meal.
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The outside world has always been what it is. It's no different today. Our culture isn't necessarily our government. It is our families, friends, whatever community you consider close to you.

I'm not suggesting happiness is a warm meal either :) Obviously you think you are happier than everyone else :)

Happiness is generally about being with people, human interactions but happiness is also not a continual state. Fulfillment is probably more sustainable.

Generally if someone can forgive others, let things go, find happiness and fulfillment internally and not worry excessively about other outside influences the more content they will be. Worship is totally unnecessary. It's not even necessary for humbleness. It's just a crutch (IMO).
 
Seattle said:
The outside world has always been what it is. It's no different today. Our culture isn't necessarily our government. It is our families, friends, whatever community you consider close to you.

I'm not suggesting happiness is a warm meal either :) Obviously you think you are happier than everyone else :)

Happiness is generally about being with people, human interactions but happiness is also not a continual state. Fulfillment is probably more sustainable.

Generally if someone can forgive others, let things go, find happiness and fulfillment internally and not worry excessively about other outside influences the more content they will be. Worship is totally unnecessary. It's not even necessary for humbleness. It's just a crutch (IMO).
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This. I've seen a few people (though not many) who seem to think happiness is a perpetual state. I've had long debates with wynn in which she claimed that there is a possible existence in which one is entirely free of stress or sadness. She even said in this thread that it isn't about distractions or how you feel after eating a meal, and that's precisely what's wrong with the concept of happiness as nirvana. Its essentially a paradise myth without the messy death as a gateway, but no more attainable in reality than Heaven.
 
Balerion said:
This. I've seen a few people (though not many) who seem to think happiness is a perpetual state. I've had long debates with wynn in which she claimed that there is a possible existence in which one is entirely free of stress or sadness. She even said in this thread that it isn't about distractions or how you feel after eating a meal, and that's precisely what's wrong with the concept of happiness as nirvana. Its essentially a paradise myth without the messy death as a gateway, but no more attainable in reality than Heaven.
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Buddhists believe that just as others believe in "heaven" as you say. Their cop out is that it's hard to attain just as Christians cop out is that we are all sinners but we try to be sin free.

Just be content and fulfilled and take the moments of happiness as they come is my philosophy.

I watched a documentary once about "happiness". They determined that it wasn't money, children, status that lead to happiness. It was the degree in which you were connected to other people.

Being married, having kids, things that some people think will lead to happiness (if they aren't married or don't have kids) may lead to other things but it's not happiness. That's not to say that people don't love their kids and that kids aren't fulfilling but people who are married with kids are less "happy" than those who are well connected to others. Kids can lead to stress worrying about them, etc.

A Buddhist in a state of nirvana wouldn't be posting on internet forums (IMO) :)
 
Seattle said:
The outside world has always been what it is. It's no different today.
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You suggested that culture provides enough for happiness:

Seattle said:
Not to answer for Wegs but basically "yes". We are all educated by our culture and therefore are all given advice on what may make us happier, more content.
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The current global crisis says otherwise.


Our culture isn't necessarily our government. It is our families, friends, whatever community you consider close to you.
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And it's that "whatever" that is so problematic.


Obviously you think you are happier than everyone else
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Obviously, you have a vivid imagination.
:rolleyes:


Happiness is generally about being with people, human interactions
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?? Not everyone thinks that.


but happiness is also not a continual state.
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???!!!
Then it's not much of a happiness to begin with. It's mere cheerfulness, the emotion that comes and goes.


Fulfillment is probably more sustainable.
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Semantics. You know damn well what I'm talking about.


Generally if someone can forgive others, let things go, find happiness and fulfillment internally and not worry excessively about other outside influences the more content they will be. Worship is totally unnecessary. It's not even necessary for humbleness. It's just a crutch (IMO).
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Someone once said that most people are too dumb to despair. He was right. If only one could dumb down deliberately!
 
Balerion said:
This. I've seen a few people (though not many) who seem to think happiness is a perpetual state. I've had long debates with wynn in which she claimed that there is a possible existence in which one is entirely free of stress or sadness. She even said in this thread that it isn't about distractions or how you feel after eating a meal, and that's precisely what's wrong with the concept of happiness as nirvana. Its essentially a paradise myth without the messy death as a gateway, but no more attainable in reality than Heaven.
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And we're supposed to believe that you've attained buddhahood and left it behind as unsatisfactory, eh?
 
wynn said:
You suggested that culture provides enough for happiness:



The current global crisis says otherwise.




And it's that "whatever" that is so problematic.




Obviously, you have a vivid imagination.
:rolleyes:




?? Not everyone thinks that.




???!!!
Then it's not much of a happiness to begin with. It's mere cheerfulness, the emotion that comes and goes.




Semantics. You know damn well what I'm talking about.




Someone once said that most people are too dumb to despair. He was right. If only one could dumb down deliberately!
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What global crisis are you referring to?
 
Seattle, I think what most people yearn for is sustainable peace. The kind of peace that when life is monotonous or exhausting or sorrowful due to circumstances, one will still have a sense of peace, despite the hardships. Happiness in my eyes is temporal and fleeting, whereas peace and joy are states that transcend temporal happiness.

And how one arrives there, is a unique path unto that person. And more often than not, it takes some painful lessons to "earn" peace. This isn't to say such a state can't be found through faith or religion, but I agree with you that we can find it outside of that.
 
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