Probably from the confidence with which you speak.
Any atheists here who were once believers?
- Thread starter wegs
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Probably from the confidence with which you speak.
Certainly, true by definition, but it gets quite complex, before the Jews decided to simplify it with the One great god idea:
The ancient Greeks believed that our world began with a shapeless and confused mass of elements. They called it Chaos. From Chaos, Nyx (Night), Erebus (Darkness), and Gaea (Earth) were born. Then, slowly, more things began to appear. For example, Nyx and Erebus jointly created Hypnos (Sleep), Thanatos (Death), and Moros (Doom). And Gaea made Uranus (Sky).
2 Gaea and Uranus together were the parents of many children. The twelve Titans -- six sons and six daughters -- were their parents' pride and joy. After the twelve Titans, Gaea gave birth to two sets of triplets, all sons. Brontes, Steropes, and Arges were from the first set. Each had only one eye in the middle of his forehead. Collectively, they were known as the Cyclopes. Briareus, Cottus, and Gyges were from the second set. Each had one hundred arms and fifty heads. Collectively, they were known as the Hecatonchires.
3 Gaea loved all her children equally. But Uranus did not. He favored only the Titans, for they were good-looking gods and goddesses. As he grew increasingly uncomfortable with his other children, he decided to cast them away. When Gaea heard of the plan, she was horrified. She tried to reason with her husband, but to no avail. Helplessly, she watched Uranus throw the Cyclopes and the Hecatonchires into Tartarus, the darkest pit in the underworld. She was mortified. She vowed that she would never forgive Uranus for his cruelty.
4 To rescue her children, Gaea made a sickle and presented the weapon to her six Titan sons. She urged them to use it to overthrow their father. Fear took hold of five of the Titans. The mere idea of standing up to Uranus made them tremble. So they refused. Only Cronus, the youngest and the strongest, took pity on his mother. He promised her that he would defeat Uranus and free his brothers. True to his words, he picked up the sickle and went after his father. Scared by the threat, Uranus fled and gave up his powers. Cronus occupied the now vacated throne. He became the new lord of the universe. ...
Cronus was the Titan of time and the ages. He is also the father of 6 of the Olympian Gods and Rhea was the Titan of female fertility, motherhood, and generation, the mother of 6 of the Olympian Gods but only Zeus survived, thanks to Rhea's trick, illustrate here:
(By Goya. A very large painting. Too large to be easily shown. - It was on the landing between two floors in the Prada, when I saw original many years ago.)
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Balerion,
I'll let him respond to that. I have no idea what you're claiming he lied about.
Excuse me?
What did I lie about?
This particular chastisement was just me passing on a complaint I received from somebody else. I thought that instead of giving you an official warning, I would see if you would be decent about it. Apparently, you won't do that. Ho hum.
If you have specific allegations regarding my misrepresentations of arguments, I'd prefer you put them to me directly. Don't pussyfoot around. Tell me what your complaint is.
Sorry. My mistake. For some reason I thought that was sarcasm.
Was it, in fact, a kind of apology to Jan after all? Strange if it was, because you go on to definitively state that you're not giving an apology.
Hopefully you can see why I'm confused.
I'll let him respond to that. I have no idea what you're claiming he lied about.
Excuse me?
What did I lie about?
This particular chastisement was just me passing on a complaint I received from somebody else. I thought that instead of giving you an official warning, I would see if you would be decent about it. Apparently, you won't do that. Ho hum.
If you have specific allegations regarding my misrepresentations of arguments, I'd prefer you put them to me directly. Don't pussyfoot around. Tell me what your complaint is.
Sorry. My mistake. For some reason I thought that was sarcasm.
Was it, in fact, a kind of apology to Jan after all? Strange if it was, because you go on to definitively state that you're not giving an apology.
Hopefully you can see why I'm confused.
Ie. things are right or wrong "just because God says so." Morality derives from God, because God set the rules to begin with, since God is the First Cause etc..
But things are not right or wrong just because Zeus says so. Morality does not derive from Zeus, because Zeus didn't set the rules to begin with, since he isn't the First Cause etc..
You don't have to buy it, you have your myths and superstitions to embrace and keep you safely tucked away in fantasy and delusion while the rest of us have science, facts and reality. No problem.
What's your point?
And it wasn't the Jews who "decided to simplify it with the One great god idea." The distinction between demigods and God is acknowledged in other religions as well, notably, Hinduism.
Nor do you care, since he's not me, and he doesn't have a giant target on his back for daring to throw a rock at your precious treehouse.
We've been over this, and it went nowhere. (Obviously)
An official warning for what? Misreading a post? I didn't know that was against the rules.
But alright, have it your way. Every time someone misrepresents an argument of mine, I will pass the message right along to you. Let's see who else you bother with this nonsense.
I don't pussyfoot around anything. I've told you more than enough times taht I see through your BS. If you need a refresher, clean out your inbox, you're sure to find some.
What would give you that idea?
Not at all. I misread his post, and admitted as much when the error was pointed out. But I'm not about to apologize to someone who spends so much of his time being intellectually dishonest (and often outright dishonest), without mentioning his insults and arrogance. No, I'm not about to apologize for a reading error. It wasn't intentional.
Then morality is arbitrary.
That doesn't seem at all satisfactory. (And that was Plato's point.)
Zeus was the supreme god in the Greek pantheon. They didn't have any "higher" god than Zeus. So I'm puzzled as to why you'd call him a demi-god. But never mind.
Let us concentrate on the big guy.
That people ALWAYS create their gods, not the other way around.
BTW, visit my post again - it is still growing with pictures. It is here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...ce-believers&p=3118439&viewfull=1#post3118439
Also, as I explained to James, here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...ce-believers&p=3117649&viewfull=1#post3117649
ALL social animals evolve some "morality" that is beneficial for the group - all the way down to honey bees
and when the expected benefit to an individual is greater than the probable cost, quite frequently that accepted morality is violated, at least in the more "intelligent" social animals (not in honey bees)*. At the link is example of monkey lying to rest of his group for personal gain.
* They do their assigned duty, and don't stop, until it kills them. In summer, with peak nectar flow, the gathers die in a few weeks. Honey bees lack the ability to repair their bodies.
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Why?
Only if you think of God as an abstract not particularly powerful force, ie. a demigod, or as someone who is per default set against humanity.
Zeus had parents, he was a contingent, dependent being. Surely, a very powerful one, but contingent nevertheless. Never is he called "The source of all other beings" or anything to that effect.
This is an untestable claim.
Half of those I've already posted at some point.
Scary Time!
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
What would anti-stamp collecting be called? Do we need a label for people who don't agree with every idea another person has?
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
Who else but an atheist could convert to religion?
Or, more likely, a pre-frontal lobotomy.
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
If Balerion raises someone from the grave will you give up your belief in God? I'm sure her (Balerion) can do that. I'll even give him a hand. We just need to find a state where that isn't illegal.
You are correct. "Always" is too strong.
I should have said that without known exceptions, different social groups create their own god (or most often many different gods with particular domains of authority) and there are usually accounts as how they came to be, (something strikingly absent in more modern religions, as it also is with Science's Big Bang).
The first pro-genitors of gods of the ancient Greeks were earth and sky, but Earth (Gaia) gave a virgin birth to sky (Uranus) to have children by him:
I. e. In the alternate POV Sky (Uranu) was born of space - the aether, which earlier in physic was the medium for light to propagate in, in vacuum.
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wynn:
No. I'm assuming God is an all-powerful deity here, not a demigod. Make him as powerful if you want. If right and wrong, good and evil are only what he says they are, then they are defined by his arbitrary whims.
I think you're right. I do vaguely recall Zeus having parents.
But it's beside the point. Let's just discuss your Most Supreme god, like I said.
me said:
No. I'm assuming God is an all-powerful deity here, not a demigod. Make him as powerful if you want. If right and wrong, good and evil are only what he says they are, then they are defined by his arbitrary whims.
I think you're right. I do vaguely recall Zeus having parents.
But it's beside the point. Let's just discuss your Most Supreme god, like I said.
Not necessarily. He might have a perfectly good reason for the given definitions.
Subjective doesn't necessarily mean arbitrary.
So what if they are God's "arbitrary whims"? As long as they are God's whims, there's no problem.
As long as God is defined, among other things, as the source of morality, as the source of your moral sense, there's no problem.
The whole idea behind "God is the source of morality" is that our human sense of morality is per default given to us by God, inherently, just like God gives us our bodies; it's not like we are somehow independent, self-sufficient beings in a universe created and maintained and at the "whims" of God; nor is it the case that we are born as amoral beasts and then need to be taught about morality from religious figures.