Another innocent executed

Soon the prisoners on death row will be asking that they be set free because being incarcerated for life is "cruel and unusual punishment" just as they are trying to say the same about the death penalty now. Imagine abolishing the death penalty then abolishing the life sentences, I can see it happening with the way things are going today.
 
While the death penalty seems intuitively sensible, the available scientifically based research contradicts a favorable view of its effectiveness.

Hence I am interested in other’s reasons for advocating retention of this somewhat anachronistic practice…
Justice. When you murder someone, your life is forfeit. Anything less is an insult to the victim.

Soon the prisoners on death row will be asking that they be set free because being incarcerated for life is "cruel and unusual punishment" just as they are trying to say the same about the death penalty now. Imagine abolishing the death penalty then abolishing the life sentences, I can see it happening with the way things are going today.
In Germany a person given a "life sentence" can get out in 15 years.
The German Constitutional Court has found that life imprisonment without the mere possibility of parole to be antithetical to human dignity
http://www.insidetime.org/articleview.asp?a=864&c=life_sentences_in_europe
 
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Whose Justice?

Madanthonywayne said:

Justice. When you murder someone, your life is forfeit. Anything less is an insult to the victim.

Except we already know that isn't the case. I mean, sure, many people say so on principle, but it's not actually true in practice.

A firearms review board investigating Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk's fatal shooting of woodcarver John T. Williams found the Aug. 30 shooting wasn't justified, according to documentation released Wednesday by the department.

Seattle Police Chief John Diaz discussed the findings Wednesday minutes after King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg announced his office would not be filing criminal charges against Birk. Williams' supporters had asked that Birk be charged with murder.

In a final review board report issued Tuesday and released Wednesday, Deputy Chief Clark Kimerer noted that Birk's actions contributed to the need to fire on Williams and that reasonable alternatives existed to doing so. Kimerer also said Birk did not have probable cause to believe Williams posed a threat to anyone if not apprehended.

"The totality of these findings lead to an unequivocal conclusion: The use of deadly force by Officer Birk resulting in the death of John T. Williams was unjustified," Kimerer wrote in the memo.


(Pulkinnen; boldface accent added)

Should Officer Ian Birk, who killed a man without justification, be forfeit? There are plenty in Seattle who would like to see him strung up, but the local prosecutor won't even bother filing charges.

The "unequivocal conclusion" of the department's own investigation is that "the use of deadly force by Officer Birk ... was unjustified".

So, by your standard, should Birk be put to death?
____________________

Notes:

Pulkinnen, Levi. "Review: Birk didn't have cause believe Williams a threat". Seattle 9111. February 16, 2011. Blog.SeattlePI.com. September 24, 2011. http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle91...k-didnt-have-cause-believe-williams-a-threat/
 
Justice. When you murder someone, your life is forfeit. Anything less is an insult to the victim.

What is the basis for this? Is there some objective definition of justice that you can provide me with? Sounds to me as though what you really mean is "anything less is insufficient revenge."
 
Except we already know that isn't the case. I mean, sure, many people say so on principle, but it's not actually true in practice.

A firearms review board investigating Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk's fatal shooting of woodcarver John T. Williams found the Aug. 30 shooting wasn't justified, according to documentation released Wednesday by the department.

Seattle Police Chief John Diaz discussed the findings Wednesday minutes after King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg announced his office would not be filing criminal charges against Birk. Williams' supporters had asked that Birk be charged with murder.

In a final review board report issued Tuesday and released Wednesday, Deputy Chief Clark Kimerer noted that Birk's actions contributed to the need to fire on Williams and that reasonable alternatives existed to doing so. Kimerer also said Birk did not have probable cause to believe Williams posed a threat to anyone if not apprehended.

"The totality of these findings lead to an unequivocal conclusion: The use of deadly force by Officer Birk resulting in the death of John T. Williams was unjustified," Kimerer wrote in the memo.


(Pulkinnen; boldface accent added)

Should Officer Ian Birk, who killed a man without justification, be forfeit? There are plenty in Seattle who would like to see him strung up, but the local prosecutor won't even bother filing charges.

The "unequivocal conclusion" of the department's own investigation is that "the use of deadly force by Officer Birk ... was unjustified".

So, by your standard, should Birk be put to death?
____________________

Notes:

Pulkinnen, Levi. "Review: Birk didn't have cause believe Williams a threat". Seattle 9111. February 16, 2011. Blog.SeattlePI.com. September 24, 2011. http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle91...k-didnt-have-cause-believe-williams-a-threat/
If he is found guilty of murder, then he should be put to death. But taking a life isn't always murder. There's self defense, there's manslaughter, there's negligent homicide, etc. We have judges and juries and prosecutors to sort these things out. In this case, they decided not to prosecute.

This may have been an injustice, I don't know enough about the case to say. But it would seem that the prosecutor felt that despite the shooting being unjustified, it didn't rise to the level of murder. Or at least he felt he couldn't prove that it did.
 
Justice. When you murder someone, your life is forfeit. Anything less is an insult to the victim.
Or retribution hiding behind justice.

From Wiki:
Revenge is a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived. It is also called retribution, retaliation, vengeance, or veiled as justice.
-bold emphasis mine.

I'm not going to bore you with lengthy arguments that are pretty standard and readily available many places online, including my Wiki link, but I will briefly touch on a few highlights.

Scientifically speaking, studies in the last couple decades seem to indicate that deterrence is less dependent on the severity of the punishment than was previously thought. It may be that as the certainty of getting apprehended and put away for life (for real) goes up with a concurrent reduction in error rate (hence less successful appeals) we'll see an overall drop in murder rates - yet to be conclusively proven in a societal setting, granted. Recursive modelling seems to point in this direction though. Have you been exposed to any of these studies? I can provide some additional links if you so desire...

In addition we must be willing to objectively accept a certain error rate if we continue to utilize capital punishment - i.e. we must accept that we are killing 1 innocent person for every 100, 1,000, or 10,000 guilty parties executed. This fact can not be ignored, as recent forensic DNA analysis applied to reviews of previous convictions has shown. This is where the finality of death comes in - while we may drastically reduce the quality of someones life experiences through mistaken imprisonment, we at least mitigate the finality inherent in capital punishment and leave the door open for some rectification if the initial conviction is later vacated.

What is your take on acceptable collateral damages here? One innocent's death for how many guilty, just so that we can assuage the victims relatives desire for vengeance?

Finally, a completely different take on the matter which may be very relevant to some people. In the Abrahamic religions, many believe that their holy books tell them that capital punishment is just, fair and even necessary. On the other hand, most if not all relevant passages can be and are interpreted in a completely different light - not to mention many which are directly contradicted elsewhere in the same text.

For example, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth - is this meant to demand "equal" retribution to obtain justice, or does it proscribe exceeding equivalent damages in pursuit of said justice? Many believe the second interpretation is the more accurate - take no more than a tooth for a tooth or an eye for an eye. While this may seem to allow for execution by the state (or the victim's family, for that matter), we also have "vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord". Hmmm... And so forth. The first interpretation has led to many a never ending blood feud over the centuries, with each side retaliating for past wrongs over and over again - to the point that neither even remembers the particulars of the original transgression. Hardly productive, eh? Of course we also have "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive the trespasses of others", etc., etc., - ad nauseam.

While I am not nearly as familiar with the Q'uran as I am the Christian Bible (and thereby to a lesser extent the Torah), my understanding is that while a case for permitting revenge may be more easily made under some Islamic belief systems, a peaceful solution is still preferred. Although I was raised Baptist I have come to be ignostic over the years, therefore I do not claim any particular expertise on religious matters, so I ask you: Do these observations square with your interpretation(s)?

Personally, I am comfortable with the scientific and economic reasoning and have, as I mentioned, changed my stance one hundred eighty degrees over the decades - I was an advocate of capital punishment, now I am not. I state this again to preclude any suggestion that this may just be all rote to me. I'm hardly a pacifist and firmly believe in the right to take a life in order to prevent someone from killing me or mine - whether that be during a home invasion or wartime - the difference being that it happens during or just before violence is perpetrated by someone else. Not fifteen years after the fact. So, while a desire for vengeance on the part of a murder victim's family and friends is certainly understandable and to be expected, I no longer support state sanctioned capital "punishment", mainly for the purely pragmatic reasons outlined above.
 
Soon the prisoners on death row will be asking that they be set free because being incarcerated for life is "cruel and unusual punishment" just as they are trying to say the same about the death penalty now. Imagine abolishing the death penalty then abolishing the life sentences, I can see it happening with the way things are going today.

+100

In Spain the longest punishment is something like 20 years. So you can nuke a city at 20 and you are writing books about it at 40 in a coffeehouse.
 
Or retribution hiding behind justice.

1. Who said retribution is bad? Your argument assumes it, but it is not objectively true.
2. Can you give a fine and clear distinction between the 2? Of course not.
3. Why the 2 have to be separate and different?

P.S.: I specially liked your religious argument, a point that NOBODY made so far, so there was no point arguing against it.
 
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1. Who said retribution is bad? Your argument assumes it, but it is not objectively true.

2. Can you give a fine and clear distinction between the 2? Of course not.

3. Why the 2 have to be separate and different?
Of course there is no objective truth here - we are talking morality and belief systems. The only school of thought that I am familiar with purporting to have an objective belief system is, well, Objectivism.

When discussing these matters, everyone has their own opinions and there are infinite shades of grey. I'm not sure who the dimmer bulb is here, me for not posting a disclaimer or you for feeling it necessary to require such an obvious and stupid assertion be explicitly made.

There are plenty of objective reasons for my stance without nitpicking at semantics. Since you asked though, there is, in fact, a distinction between retribution and justice. Because I am lazy I googled for it instead of attempting to rewrite the wheel - I will be quoting from a very unlikely source, at least for me, but it happened to say what I wanted on my first try:
Justice vs retribution

Here are two words which seem to be identical but are not:

Retribution: something done or given to somebody as punishment or vengeance for something he or she has done-punishment.

Justice: the legal system, or the act of applying or upholding the law-application of law.

Retribution is nothing more than the desire for revenge (vengeance). It is the all consuming desire to see punishment inflicted in return for a wrong. "Getting even", "settling the score", "retaliation" etc are all words and phrases conveying the same idea. At the root of retribution is PUNISHMENT.

Justice may certainly include punishment but is far more concerned with the upholding of applicable law than "getting even". Justice is blind and hears all facts concerning a case. Retribution is raw emotion and passion seeking only revenge.
Google justice vs retribution and you will get 2,450,000 results, so there is plenty of material out there addressing the difference. Have fun.

In any event, I rest my beliefs primarily on the scientific, objective facts - i.e. the economic and social science saying that there is little, if any, additional deterrent value in applying ever harsher penalties and quite indubitably more costs associated with doing so.

The only objective factor that I am aware of supporting capital punishment is prevention of recidivism - you can't reoffend if you're dead. Even victims' desire for vengeance varies from case to case - many would not want the state to execute someone, even if they were guilty.

I also feel compelled to mention (yet again) the possibility, nay, eventual certainty, of committing a very grave error - the taking of innocent life.

These reasons form the foundation of my current stance on the death penalty. What say you on the underlying issue? Why? Please explain, maybe I'll waffle and change my mind back, or at least throw it in the same ignostic bowl I place god/s...
 
Of course there is no objective truth here

I didn't ask for truth, I asked for a definition. :)

everyone has their own opinions

My opinions tend to be very objective. For example: no dead man killed ever again, is a very objective (should I say factual) truth.

The only objective factor that I am aware of supporting capital punishment is prevention of recidivism - you can't reoffend if you're dead.

hey, we are on the same page!!!

Even victims' desire for vengeance

Sorry to come with the same arguments again, but:

1. What is the distinction between justice and vengeance? With your own words, please?
2. Is there a fine and objective line between them?
3. Why is it always the victim's family? I am not related to the Casey family, but I want justice for the little dead girl!

of committing a very grave error - the taking of innocent life.

So you don't have a problem with executing the guilty? Now we are improving!

What say you on the underlying issue? Why?

Well, for one, you can look at punishment as payment (instead of using such a big words as retribution and vengeance) If you work unless it is volunteer work, you expect payment, right? So for bad deeds, people should expect payment too. Bigger the sin, bigger should be the payment, obviously.

I think we both agree, that let's say exploding a dirty bomb at a football game in Spain and causing let's say 5000 deaths and 40000 severe bodily harm is worthy a little bit more than 20 years in prison.

Do we agree???

There are only 2 kind of agreements against the DP, the stupid ones and the sadist one. I personally don't have a problem with the sadist one, but anti-DP people don't like to use it, although that is the only valid argument, the rest are stupid.

Sadist argument: We shouldn't execute criminals, because we can cause them more pain and suffering by keeping them alive.

I say, Amen, to that. (unfortunately, it is not true in most cases)
 
I didn't ask for truth, I asked for a definition.
You got one.

Syzygys said:
My opinions tend to be very objective. For example: no dead man killed ever again, is a very objective (should I say factual) truth.
I think you're safe with factual on this one. Very astute observation, by the way. You have a real talent for stating the obvious.

Syzygys said:
hey, we are on the same page!!!
See, you can even do it after I have agreed twice with your position. You have figured out that a dead man can't commit murder. Bravo, what's your encore?

Syzygys said:
Sorry to come with the same arguments again, but:
Sorry to see the same old tired POV.

Syzygys said:
1. What is the distinction between justice and ?
I just told you.
Syzygys said:
With your own words, please?
Which part of the definition I provided don't you understand?
Syzygys said:
2. Is there a fine and objective line between them?
Depends on how observant and rational the beholder is. Are you capable of distinguishing between the two?
Syzygys said:
3. Why is it always the victim's family?
It's not.
Syzygys said:
I am not related to the Casey family, but I want justice for the little dead girl!
How very admirable of you! So do I. I'm trying to ascertain what equitable justice is. You know, weigh the pros and cons, discuss and debate. Why are you here?

Syzygys said:
So you don't have a problem with executing the guilty? Now we are improving!
I have a problem with capital punishment in general, for the reasons I have already stated - twice.

Syzygys said:
Well, for one, you can look at punishment as payment (instead of using such a big words as retribution and vengeance).
No, you can look at punishment as payment. I look to incarceration, fines, community service, corporal or capital punishment for justice. Sorry that you are unable to comprehend the distinction, and sorry for using too many big words in your company. I will try to dumb it down a little for you...

Syzygys said:
If you work unless it is volunteer work, you expect payment, right?
Of course. This is an invalid analogy, but I'll along anyways. I enter into a contract for work I do. I negotiate the contract aforehand. (oops, that's prior to beginning work for you Sysgys) I'm currently attempting to address the existing social contract here in the states vis-a-vis capital punishment and when or if it is ever applied. Do try to keep up.
So for bad deeds, people should expect payment too. Bigger the sin, bigger should be the payment, obviously.
Oooh.. "Sin" Now there's a word for you - full of connotations. How very righteous of you. Could you please provide me with an objective definition of "sin", dear boy?

Syzygys said:
I think we both agree, that let's say exploding a dirty bomb at a football game in Spain and causing let's say 5000 deaths and 40000 severe bodily harm is worthy a little bit more than 20 years in prison.

Do we agree???
Yes, we agree. It's worth life in prison without possibility of parole.

Syzygys said:
There are only 2 kind of agreements against the DP, the stupid ones and the sadist one. I personally don't have a problem with the sadist one, but anti-DP people don't like to use it, although that is the only valid argument, the rest are stupid.

Sadist argument: We shouldn't execute criminals, because we can cause them more pain and suffering by keeping them alive.
Agreements? Maybe you meant arguments. Whatever. You see, I don't find this bit to be objective at all. And I'm all about objectivism. Yes, even Randism. So I have no way to reply to this remark.

BTW, there are only two kinds of people who post here - those that divide the world into two kinds of people and those that don't.

I say, Amen, to that.
Good, let's eat!
 
Is the crime rate in Germany higher as a result of this policy? Are the Germans simply too stupid to understand how wrong this policy is? If it were somehow proven beyond a reasonable doubt that this policy resulted in an overall lower crime rate, would you still be against it?

of course he would, its been shown time and again how wrong the death penelty is and yet the right wing in the US and people like Mad here still cling to it as despirtatly as a child clings to there blanket. Its like the US sticks a blanket over its head and screams "lah lah lah, the US IS the world, nothing else exists" and the comments in this thread bare this out
 
of course he would, its been shown time and again how wrong the death penelty is and yet the right wing in the US and people like Mad here still cling to it as despirtatly as a child clings to there blanket. Its like the US sticks a blanket over its head and screams "lah lah lah, the US IS the world, nothing else exists" and the comments in this thread bare this out

I want to hear him say it. I want him to be honest with himself, and admit that his desire for vengeance is more important than a low crime rate.
 
You talk too much and say little, so just a few points..

No, you can look at punishment as payment.

Except you failed to explain why not.

I enter into a contract for work I do.

Hate to break it to you, but by being born into a particular society also means you enter a contract. :)

You expected to follow that society's rules and laws. If you don't like them, you can migrate...

dear boy?

You condescending moron, the conversation is over with you...

Being condescending itself wouldn't be too big of a problem, not being able to make valid arguments AND being an asshole is.

So long....
 
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You talk too much and say little, so just a few points..
I have little to say to one possessing such little intellect as you exhibit. Perhaps if you had an intelligent observation or insight to comment upon the situation would differ.

Except you failed to explain why not.
No you failed to understand my explanation. This is not my fault.

Hate to break it to you, but by being born into a particular society also means you enter a contract.

You expected to follow that society's rules and laws. If you don't like them, you can migrate...
I hate to break it to you, but by being utterly incapable of reading and comprehending simple English you failed to notice that I addressed this very topic - in the same post in which you replied with the moronic little gem found above. To wit:
Randwolf said:
I'm currently attempting to address the existing social contract here in the states vis-a-vis capital punishment and when or if it is ever applied.
Do try to keep up.

You condescending moron, the conversation is over with you...

Being condescending itself wouldn't be too big of a problem, not being able to make valid arguments AND being an asshole is.

So long....
Good day kind sir. Sorry I have no time for trolls, especially stupid ones. Think twice before you cross paths with me again.

:wave:
 
of course he would, its been shown time and again how wrong the death penelty is and yet the right wing in the US and people like Mad here still cling to it as despirtatly as a child clings to there blanket. Its like the US sticks a blanket over its head and screams "lah lah lah, the US IS the world, nothing else exists" and the comments in this thread bare this out

You can't really discuss the Death Penalty in the US using a monolithic view.

We are, in fact, 50 States.

First of all, polls show a clear majority of the people in the US are against the death penalty, but that does vary by state. (While there is a Federal Death Penalty, it has only been used 3 times in the last decade, and not at all for the last 7 years)

Secondly, the laws concerning the death penalty were all rewritten since 1976, and so most debate centers on the post 1976 period.

So:

In 16 States and DC, there is no death penalty.

Of the 34 States with the death penalty, the vast majority of executions are from only 10 States, which account for over 80% of the executions (1/3 are from Texas alone).

In contrast, in 10 of the 34 States that have the death penalty there have been a total of 11 executions in the last ~50 years, so while it can be said that these 11 States have the death penalty, it is almost never used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States

Arthur
 
Justice. When you murder someone, your life is forfeit. Anything less is an insult to the victim.

Seems to me that you should let those with standing to speak for victims decide that, no? I.e., their families or what-have-you.

Sure, some will agree with you. But others feel differently, and consider the invocation of their suffering as a pretext to commit acts that they firmly disagree with to be highly insulting and insensitive.
 
The best part of not having the death penalty is that one can go Dexter on criminals, murder a bunch of them (hey, we might as well call him a superhero) and still live.... :)
 
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