Another innocent executed

[Randwolf]

Which way would you be thinking better, right after the incident or 20 years later?:shrug:

It would depend on how much pressure and coercion was applied by the government in the first place vs. now. That could easily offset the fading due to passage of time.

Even if I don't remember the incident clearly now, I'm quite sure I would remember thinking "Wow. I just put an innocent man on death row." That would be a hard burden to carry and I would jump at a chance to right a past wrong. I suppose this might work both ways though, and influence someone to lie now because their belief system changed.

The whole process just begs for some sort of serious revision, IMO.

 

[cosmictraveler]

It would depend on how much pressure and coercion was applied by the government in the first place vs. now.

So all the other evidence doesn't mean anything? The other eye witnesses that never recanted their views? To see that you are only thinking about some kind of a "conspiracy" that somehow forced everyone that saw this murder to say the exact same thing would be very incomprehensible to me and millions of others. What makes you think that way, I'm curious and not trying to be argumentative.

 

[Randwolf]

Execution of the justice systems findings is a good way to put it. Again I don't see you saying much about the victims and their families suffering after their loved ones are murdered, why is that? You do know that this man that was murdered had a wife or didn't you because the media never brought her up or his mother and father either, I wonder why that is? To me we pay way to much attention to the murderers to see that they get fair and just treatment but NOTHING is ever given to the suffering families that will never see their loved ones again. That , to me, is the biggest travesty in any case that the media is bringing up at anytime. All eyes on the defendant but no one looks at the victim or their families or helps them.

I happen to believe that the interests of the victims are best served by not perpetuating the violence unneccesarilly during the "execution of justice". How would you feel if, as a victim, you discovered later that you had made a mistake in your ID process? Too late now, with capital punishment. Oh, well...

Since haphazard application of the death penalty does not seem to deter crime as much as consistent life sentencing, without possibility of parole, and it's cheaper and allows for mitigation of potential mistakes - I mean, what's the downside? The only real topic I see is lost retribution / revenge. Which, as others have pointed out, does not always square nicely with true "justice".

 

[occidental]

To see that you are only thinking about some kind of a "conspiracy" that somehow forced everyone that saw this murder to say the exact same thing would be very incomprehensible to me and millions of others. What makes you think that way, I'm curious and not trying to be argumentative.

I live in a big city and I dont find it incomprehensible at all, mostly because of stuff like this:

Chicago police corruption case: 4 former officers charged in Special Operations Section scandal
The four are expected to eventually plead guilty in exchange for cooperating with the investigation. They would testify at trial and have already provided grand jury testimony about their alleged involvement in a ring led by former Officer Jerome Finnigan. The group is accused of making false arrests, committing robberies and home invasions for several years, acting under the guise of busting street gangs and rounding up guns.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-09-18/news/0909170839_1_police-corruption-police-officers-chicago-police-department

or this:

Ex-Chicago cop gets 12 years in corruption case
Finnigan has long been the central character in an unfolding investigation into a now-disbanded elite narcotics unit that repeatedly stormed into the homes of suspected drug dealers, pulled over their cars, and then stole hundreds of thousands of dollars — once even forcing a diabetic man to tell them where he'd hidden cash by withholding his insulin.

http://news.yahoo.com/ex-chicago-cop-gets-12-years-corruption-case-203315960.html

 

[Syzygys]

This guy may have been innocent or not, but you have to ask yourself, how many innocent people is it acceptable to kill (in cold blood) in order to keep the death penalty.

20. Twenty sounds like such a good number, agreed? So can we keep the DP now????

At the beginning of every and any large construction builders know that there will be accidental death of innocent workers. Should we stop all large constructions and never do any ever because of it???

Look up how many people died at the construction of the Hoover Dam? Was it worthy just for cheap electricity???

How about the Tunnel in Boston?? So just people can save a few minutes traveling????

"On Tuesday afternoon, 26-year-old Frank Jr., known as "young Frank" to family and friends, was killed near a South Boston construction site when a tractor-trailer pinned him against a Jersey barrier as he walked back to work."

I mourn the innocent worker's death. Let's stop all constructions NOW!!! Never build anything ever again.....

 

[cosmictraveler]

occidental

I live in a big city and I dont find it incomprehensible at all, mostly because of stuff like this:


“ Chicago police corruption case: 4 former officers charged in Special Operations Section scandal
The four are expected to eventually plead guilty in exchange for cooperating with the investigation. They would testify at trial and have already provided grand jury testimony about their alleged involvement in a ring led by former Officer Jerome Finnigan. The group is accused of making false arrests, committing robberies and home invasions for several years, acting under the guise of busting street gangs and rounding up guns.

That is a police conspiracy , I'm talking about many of the eye witnesses that recanted their accounts of the murder not the police. Did you read what I said?:shrug:

"Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
To see that you are only thinking about some kind of a "conspiracy" that somehow forced everyone that saw this murder to say the exact same thing would be very incomprehensible to me and millions of others. "

 

[cosmictraveler]

Since haphazard application of the death penalty does not seem to deter crime as much as consistent life sentencing,

Well that's an interesting statement, can you provide a link to prove it? Or are you just giving an opinion based on your assumtions?:shrug:

 

[Asguard]

Well that's an interesting statement, can you provide a link to prove it? Or are you just giving an opinion based on your assumtions?:shrug:

i already provided you infomation showing that the Death penelty doesnt work

The UK has only a 1.4 per 10000 pop homicide rather compared to a 4 per 10000 murder rate in the US with Australia at 1.3

Ie MUCH lower than the US

 

[cosmictraveler]

i already provided you infomation showing that the Death penelty doesnt work

The UK has only a 1.4 per 10000 pop homicide rather compared to a 4 per 10000 murder rate in the US with Australia at 1.3

Ie MUCH lower than the US

But he was making a statement about each American state and I've never seen any statistics about how much one state reduced the murder rate that didn't have the death penalty as compared to ones that did. All I asked was to show me those statistics about the states even though you have already done so about your countries for which I thank you.

 

[adoucette]

People said more than that they "weren't sure." They said that they had been coerced into lying by the police (under threat of prosecution or parole violation), and that another of the witnesses had subsequently confessed to the crime to them. One of them recanted during the original trial, under cross-examination.

So, again - is one or two people saying that you did it sufficient basis to convict and execute someone? Especially when such a large percentage of witnesses in the case ended up recanting? Especially when there is evidence that one of the people saying you did it, is himself the culprit? You wouldn't demand some kind of corroborating physical evidence, to feel comfortable killing someone?

Were both men involved but they only charged one?
Possibly.
But there is no suggestion at all that this man wasn't involved in the officer's death.

Which is why the Appeal Courts, who heard all the testimony, including later versons of that testimony, didn't overturn the original conviction.

Arthur

 

[adoucette]

But he was making a statement about each American state and I've never seen any statistics about how much one state reduced the murder rate that didn't have the death penalty as compared to ones that did. All I asked was to show me those statistics about the states even though you have already done so about your countries for which I thank you.

Rates per 100,000 (2010 data)

Without Death Penalty

District of Columbia		21.8
New Mexico			5.7
Michigan				5.6
New York				4.4
Alaska				4.4
New Jersey			4.1
Massachusetts			3.2
West Virginia			3.0
Rhode Island			2.8
Wisconsin			2.7
Maine				1.8
Hawaii				1.8
Minnesota			1.7
North Dakota			1.3
Iowa				1.2

With Death Penalty

Louisiana			9.6
Maryland				7.3
Missouri				7.0
South Carolina			6.1
Nevada				5.9
Tennessee			5.6
Mississippi			5.6
Arizona				5.5
Georgia				5.4
Delaware				5.3
Pennsylvania			5.1
Oklahoma				5.0
Texas				5.0
California			4.9
North Carolina			4.7
Virginia				4.6
Arkansas				4.5
Alabama				4.2
Kentucky				4.1
Ohio				4.0
Connecticut			3.7
Illinois		                	3.5
Kansas				3.5
Indiana				3.1
Nebraska				2.8
Colorado				2.3
Washington			2.2
Montana				2.1
Oregon				2.0
Utah				1.9
South Dakota			1.7
Wyoming				1.4
Idaho				1.3
Vermont				1.1
New Hampshire			1.0

The closer correlation is not to the death penalty, but appears to be to population density and the percent of Black residents.

The two highest percents in both lists are DC with 50.7% Black and Louisiana with 32% Black

Young Black males kill themselves in the US at an alarming rate.

(The homicide rate for Black males is around 40 per 100,000 (which is horrible, but then again it is about half of what it was in the early 70s and the trend continues downward))

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/states-and-without-death-penalty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

Note, for some reason, the FBI stats left out Florida.

Arthur

 

[adoucette]

i already provided you infomation showing that the Death penelty doesnt work

The UK has only a 1.4 per 10000 pop homicide rather compared to a 4 per 10000 murder rate in the US with Australia at 1.3

Ie MUCH lower than the US

First of all you are off by a factor of TEN.
Those rates are per 100,000 people.

Secondly, you haven't shown anything that correlates the two.

Indeed, I'd think that the rate of civilian gun ownership is likely a much stronger factor.

Australia and the UK have very restictive Gun laws.

State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.
Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence

The US does not.
Indeed, here one can buy a rifle and ammunition at Walmart, no waiting, no registration.

Consequently we have far more guns per capita than any other country in the world (since we don't require registration of rifles there is no way to actually know, but surveys indicate that roughly half the homes have a gun/rifle).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_Americans_own_guns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

 

[elte]

Much of the problem involves human psychology. Once a person gets sucked into the justice system, the atmosphere he/she experiences is one of assumed guilt.

 

[LoRaan]

thats bunkum, we have senatences of life without the possibility of parol so there ARE repudiations. Also as far as others committing murders:

And being L-wopped just means you serve 25 years even with good behaviour. Hell some hardcopre criminals have been L-wopped twice in their career.

 

[Syzygys]

>we have sentences of life without the possibility of parol

Only a sadist would keep an innocent man behind bars for life....

 

[Syzygys]

i already provided you infomation showing that the Death penelty doesnt work

Neither does the prison system, since there are always new criminals. By the way what do you mean it doesn't work? No dead man ever killed again, so it does work.

So let's just be done away with punishment and incarceration, imagina how much money we could save!

Oh yes, you are also stupid....

 

[spidergoat]

>we have sentences of life without the possibility of parol

Only a sadist would keep an innocent man behind bars for life....

If they are truly innocent, they have the opportunity to appeal, something you can't do when you're dead.

 

[Repo Man]

If they are truly innocent, they have the opportunity to appeal, something you can't do when you're dead.

Also, when was the last time you heard of a death row inmate who was looking forward to being executed? There have been a few cases where the condemned wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible, but they have been a tiny minority. It's ridiculous to try and dress it up as an act of mercy. But no matter how many times that point is shot down, you can count on syzygys to bring it up again in the next death penalty thread. It's pretty much just trolling at this point.

 

[Syzygys]

If they are truly innocent, they have the opportunity to appeal,

Opportunity to appeal doesn't equal freeing someone. Did this copkiller get his appeal? Yes. Did he get free? No. So was he innocent? According to his 3+ appeals, no.

 

[Syzygys]

Also, when was the last time you heard of a death row inmate who was looking forward to being executed?

A few years ago? When an inmate asked to be executed, google it.

Also, when was the last time when anybody wanted to be jailed???

DP opponents are trolling because can't make a decent argument, so yes at this point it is just toying with you guys...