Animal cruelty

[James R]

TW Scott:

You know, I have wondered if some so called vegetarian crusaders are actually vegetarians. So far everyone i have showed this thread to and has read James R's arguments has gone out and bought a triple cheeseburger just to disagree with him. He's actually have a negative effect here as my long time friend George has decided to eat meat again if that is how vegetarians act.

Interesting. You must know a lot of the belligerent type of meat-eaters.

People can be very irrational when their assumptions are challenged. The tendency to hunker down and entrench yourself in your unethical position, rather than to face facts is not really surprising, but a little sad.

Maybe some time in the future you and your friends will think rationally about the arguments I've made here. I hope you do.


Communist Hamster:

I'm just saying that if you wanted to help the environment and help ethics, then perhaps it would be better to stop the destruction of habitats which extinct whole species, rather than argue abiout eating cows which are in no danger of extinction.

You're still stuck on the idea that we can only cure one wrong at a time. What's more, it is a lot easier to make a personal choice to stop eating meat than to single-handedly stop the destruction of habitats. Ever heard of "think globally, act locally"?

 

[TW Scott]

Actually tell me exactly why you seem to think meat eating in immoral. Do you think dolphins are immoral? Are dogs? Cats? How about Jesus, was he immoral? Mohammed?

 

[James R]

Actually tell me exactly why you seem to think meat eating in immoral.

Didn't you read the thread?

Ok. Eating meat is immoral because it involves killing an innocent animal for no ethically-justifiable reason. Meat eaters eat meat purely for their own pleasure and convenience. An animal can feel pain. There is no reason to think animals do not wish their lives to continue. Moreover, the meat industry's practises in breeding and raising animals mean that by eating meat you are supporting systematic animal cruelty. Most meat animals are bred solely for food, kept in appalling conditions for their brief and unhappy lives, and are killed, often inhumanely.

Now, your turn. Please tell me why you believe eating meat is moral.

Do you think dolphins are immoral? Are dogs? Cats? How about Jesus, was he immoral? Mohammed?

How is this relevant? Are you refusing to act morally unless all animals and other human beings act morally? Or did you have some other point?

 

[Hapsburg]

What most vegetarians fail to realize is that the clearing of forests to create more farms so they can eat more vegetables kills off more animals than hunting them for food does.

 

[TW Scott]

Didn't you read the thread?

Sorry, but the morass of lies and sterotypes you spread was just too much to swim through.

Ok. Eating meat is immoral because it involves killing an innocent animal for no ethically-justifiable reason. Meat eaters eat meat purely for their own pleasure and convenience. An animal can feel pain. There is no reason to think animals do not wish their lives to continue. Moreover, the meat industry's practises in breeding and raising animals mean that by eating meat you are supporting systematic animal cruelty. Most meat animals are bred solely for food, kept in appalling conditions for their brief and unhappy lives, and are killed, often inhumanely.

Acutally how do you know it is a innocent animal? Eating is not a ethically justifiable means? No, meat eaters eat meat for the unbeatable source of protein, vitamins, and taste. Yes, an animal can feel pain, So? There is also no reason to think an animal has any desire to die of old age either. Now your statment is a bald faced lie. I have been on a cattle ranch and can tell you cattle have a pretty good life. They're protected and fed as well as cared for medically. How many animals in the wilderness get that? I have also been to a slaughterhouse. Sure it's a bit groteque but the one i saw was as humane as possible and efficent. Much preferable to being chased down and tore apart by wolves.

Now, your turn. Please tell me why you believe eating meat is moral.

I don't have to tell you why. You see society knows eating meat is moral. You are the one with the aberrant view. You are the one making the accusations. The burden of proof is upon you. In he lend if there is the slightest doubt about you case then it is rejected. Welcome to being the accuser in a legal system.

How is this relevant? Are you refusing to act morally unless all animals and other human beings act morally? Or did you have some other point?

How is this relevant? How is it not? No one question if a dog is commiting any form of crime when he eats meat. No one questions a cat's right to catch and eat mice. Jesus fed thousands with fish, while preaching about how to be better people.

Eating meat is no more morally wrong than eating broccoli. Both ways you have killed someing and are ingesting it. As long as you steer away form eating human being you are in the larger moral path. Now your very particular moral compass may sya it is wrong, but on the whole you opinion and 99 cents will get you and order of onion rings. Society and Nature decided a long time ago eating meat was morally okay. Live with it.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Didn't you read the thread?

Ok. Eating meat is immoral because it involves killing an innocent animal for no ethically-justifiable reason. Meat eaters eat meat purely for their own pleasure and convenience. An animal can feel pain. There is no reason to think animals do not wish their lives to continue. Moreover, the meat industry's practises in breeding and raising animals mean that by eating meat you are supporting systematic animal cruelty. Most meat animals are bred solely for food, kept in appalling conditions for their brief and unhappy lives, and are killed, often inhumanely.

Now, your turn. Please tell me why you believe eating meat is moral.



How is this relevant? Are you refusing to act morally unless all animals and other human beings act morally? Or did you have some other point?

i hunt alot, for what reason am i not moral?


i would rather hunt myself than purchase store meat that is mass slaughtered,

why have i got meat eater teeth in my mouth? what are my canine teeth for?

is my cat immoral to for hunting a bird or mouse, my cat (who was actually born in the wild and lived there for years untill i tamed it myself) should i slap my cat for you now and tell him he is bad?


arent we just animals like you stated? so why are you saying my animal instinct to hunt meat is bad?


you must be comparing me to a spiritual godlike bieng who dosent go by the laws of animal nature,

humans are omnivours correct? implying we also eat meat. we are cannibals also does that make you feel unneasy? is it because yout hink of yourself as a piece of meat/food?,


i would actually eat you (im totaly serious) if we were to crashland in a deserted island with no food about, i would hunt you,


i have to survive.

peace,

 

[Nanonetics]

Id like to see major penalties applied to offenders caught abusing animals.
Id like to see these pathetic fines that most countries apply to these subhuman monsters abolished and real punishments like those imposed on people who commit crimes against human

Id like to hear what others think about my opinions.

Animals must gain all the rights and entitlements of full citizenship. I have yet to see a solid argument against such a proposal.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

if i want to eat you nanonetics why can you tell me its wrong?

arent you just food that grew on earth,

the food chain? animals eat other animals, if we didnt eat meat then would we have even evolved inteligence, to my understading it is eating fish that helped us evolve intelligence further to advance,


fish are animals right? so how would all the sea creatures survive without eating each other? theres nto enough vegetationt og o around under the sea, (yes im aware of what plantlife is under the sea and its not enough to sustain all the life down there trust me)

if humans didnt eat each other and eat meat how do you know you would even have been brought into existance?


why cant i hunt a deer? i live in the wild for a period of time every year, why cant i survive on meat aswell as plants? its all just food that helps me survive.

tell me why your not a goof energy supply for my body to sustain life, i could live on human meat my whole life as a fuel couldent i?,



peace.

peace.

 

[Nanonetics]

if i want to eat you nanonetics why can you tell me its wrong?

Technically partner depending on proximity, we do consume one another and ourselves, if only a few molecules. Everyone is an unintentional cannibal, relatively speaking.

arent you just food that grew on earth,

the food chain? animals eat other animals, if we didnt eat meat then would we have even evolved inteligence, to my understading it is eating fish that helped us evolve intelligence further to advance,

Absolutely. I would go further and say that to some degree, the building blocks of our bodies are extraterrestrial, with many elements having formed in the nuclear furnace of one or more stars, scattered after said stars went supernova, collected onto the gravity field we fall on here.

fish are animals right? so how would all the sea creatures survive without eating each other? theres nto enough vegetationt og o around under the sea, (yes im aware of what plantlife is under the sea and its not enough to sustain all the life down there trust me)

The issue is not about eating each other. The issue is why animals should not legally be full citizens. Furthermore violence to the degree of murder itself is not absolutely immoral. Governments routinely murder with little or no hypocritical moral outcry from the idiotic citizen herd and their highly personalized fantasy preferences. Maybe we need to radically reorient our system of values, especially by casting off the ludicrous hypocricy of the big 3 moral religions in the western hemisphere. Nature says strength and efficiency should rule, not that weak self-centered retards who actively seek out a million ways to get offended should rule - this means the citizen herd.

 

[Hapsburg]

Did I mention religion? No.

You seem religious in your moralistic beliefs.

It's a good thing your friends and family don't know that you only care about yourself.

Oh, I care about other people, i.e my family and friends and even my pets. But, random numbers that I don't and never will know...to hell with them.

If you ran the world, there'd be no penalty for me, because, as you say, you'd just let me "go for it".

Nah, more like if you lived in my world, you would've been executed for crimes against humanity.

 

[James R]

Hapsburg:

What most vegetarians fail to realize is that the clearing of forests to create more farms so they can eat more vegetables kills off more animals than hunting them for food does.

No. Remember how I told you that about 3 times as much land is used for meat production as would be used for production of a purely vegetarian diet?

If we cut out meat, we could reclaim at least 1/3 of existing farmland for forests.

If you're so pro-environment, why don't you support that?

Oh, I care about other people, i.e my family and friends and even my pets. But, random numbers that I don't and never will know...to hell with them.

You're at an amazingly low level of moral sophistication.

It seems you don't realise that other people's actions affect you, and that your actions affect the world around you.

I think I'm done with you. There's really no hope of making progress until you grow up a bit.

 

[James R]

TW Scott:

Sorry, but the morass of lies and sterotypes you spread was just too much to swim through.

How do you know it was lies and stereotyping, when you didn't bother reading any of it?

You're just lazy.

Acutally how do you know it is a innocent animal?

What harm has a baby lamb done in the world, according to you, that justifies you munching into your juicy piece of veal?

Eating is not a ethically justifiable means? No, meat eaters eat meat for the unbeatable source of protein, vitamins, and taste.

How many times is it necessary to make the point that there are ethical sources of protein and vitamins?

As for the taste, that's just selfishness, as I have also pointed out many times. It merely confirms my point that you et meat for pleasure, and that is your only justification.

Yes, an animal can feel pain, So?

Work it through, Sherlock.

Why can't I hurt you just because I want to? Why am I not allowed to cut you with a knife, just for fun? Why would I be prosecuted by law if I did that?

Think. Please.

Now your statment is a bald faced lie. I have been on a cattle ranch and can tell you cattle have a pretty good life. They're protected and fed as well as cared for medically. How many animals in the wilderness get that?

How long do your ranch catle live for, on average? Do you know, or care?

And why are they bred in the first place?

The fact is, those cattle are brought into existence purely for selfish human pleasure, used as property not entitled to any rights independent of the rights of their "owner", and killed after a brief period because you like to eat their flesh.

I have also been to a slaughterhouse. Sure it's a bit groteque but the one i saw was as humane as possible and efficent. Much preferable to being chased down and tore apart by wolves.

How many wolves live near the cattle ranch you mentioned?

Is killing in a slaughterhouse humane, according to you? Can you even begin to appreciate that you are ending lives there?

Now, your turn. Please tell me why you believe eating meat is moral.

I don't have to tell you why.

What an insight into you this gives me. I give you an honest answer to the question, and you think you don't even need to justify your cruelty. What a double standard you have.

You see society knows eating meat is moral.

Then you should be able to give me a list of reasons why eating meat is moral. But instead, the best you can do is to assert "I don't need to give reasons".

Pathetic.

You are the one with the aberrant view.

I agree. The majority of society disagrees with me, mostly because they never begin to think about the question.

But masses of people have been wrong in the past, and masses of people are wrong now. Safety in numbers is not a moral argument. Can't you see that?

You are the one making the accusations. The burden of proof is upon you.

I've discharged that. I have given many reasons why eating meat is not ethically justifiable. You have not rebutted any of them. Therefore, I win the debate. You have been found ethically wanting.

What is funny here is that you consider me an accuser, and you become all defensive, when I point out the simple truth. Why? Because you have no real response, and you know it. So, you try to sidetrack the discussion with irrelevancies, talk around the issues, claim you don't need to present an argument for meat eating etc.

No one question if a dog is commiting any form of crime when he eats meat.

Can a dog live on a vegetarian diet?

No one questions a cat's right to catch and eat mice.

Yes, they do. Domestic cats kill a lot of native fauna. Therefore, ethical people advocate that cats be kept indoors at night time, for example. Domestic cats do not need to catch mice. They are already fed by their owners.

Jesus fed thousands with fish, while preaching about how to be better people.

I guess he didn't consider the ethical implications of meat eating. Or maybe that story is not an accurate record of events. In fact, maybe the event didn't happen at all.

Eating meat is no more morally wrong than eating broccoli.

Then give me your reasons why eating meat is not morally wrong. If you have any.

As long as you steer away form eating human being you are in the larger moral path.

Why are humans special? Are you religious? Do you think you're the centre of the universe? If it's morally ok to eat animals, then you have given me no reasons why it is not also morally ok to eat human beings, so far. Do you have any such reasons, or do you "not have to tell me"?

Society and Nature decided a long time ago eating meat was morally okay. Live with it.

1. The mob is not always right and does not always act ethically.
2. To say that what is "natural" is necessarily "good" is a logical fallacy known as the "naturalistic fallacy".

 

[James R]

EmptyForceofChi:

i hunt alot, for what reason am i not moral?

Because you kill animals just for your pleasure. Read the thread.

why have i got meat eater teeth in my mouth? what are my canine teeth for?

They evolved that way, before humans developed the ability to reason morally about things. But now, some of us can make ethical choices.

is my cat immoral to for hunting a bird or mouse, my cat (who was actually born in the wild and lived there for years untill i tamed it myself) should i slap my cat for you now and tell him he is bad?

Do you feed your cat? If so, there's no need for him/her to hunt.

arent we just animals like you stated? so why are you saying my animal instinct to hunt meat is bad?

It's not an animal instinct. You just do it for fun, like playing your computer games.

Tell me, why don't you kill humans as well as animals?

you must be comparing me to a spiritual godlike bieng who dosent go by the laws of animal nature,

I was actually hoping you might be a human who had some ethical standards by which you lived. But I guess not.

humans are omnivours correct? implying we also eat meat.

Yes, we are and we do (well, some of us do). The question is: should we eat meat, when we can choose not to? Get it?

i would actually eat you (im totaly serious) if we were to crashland in a deserted island with no food about, i would hunt you,

i have to survive.

On an island with no alternative food, that might be justifiable, though there would be other ethical issues to consider. But you don't live on an island. There are plentiful sources of vegetarian food available to you, yet you still choose not to act in an ethical manner. Why not?

 

[James R]

Nanonetics:

Nature says strength and efficiency should rule, not that weak self-centered retards who actively seek out a million ways to get offended should rule - this means the citizen herd.

Do you believe that what is "natural" is necessarily "good", as well?

 

[Zappa]

James: Are you atheist? If there is no God or religion, why is it necessary to be ethical? I can see it in the social sense: You know that hurting other people will bring serious repercussions. But that's purely social motivation. There is nothing in the way of killing animals for eating pleasure, so why not?

From where is this sense of good and evil you have?

 

[TW Scott]

TW Scott:



How do you know it was lies and stereotyping, when you didn't bother reading any of it?

You're just lazy.

No just trying to avoid an anuerism

What harm has a baby lamb done in the world, according to you, that justifies you munching into your juicy piece of veal?

Hmm, veal is calf not lamb, but then again I can'tt expect you to tell any truth can I?

How many times is it necessary to make the point that there are ethical sources of protein and vitamins?

Yes there are and one of them is meat. You may not think so but I already told you what your opinion is worth.

As for the taste, that's just selfishness, as I have also pointed out many times. It merely confirms my point that you et meat for pleasure, and that is your only justification.

We like the taste of foods that are good for us it is how we evolved.

Work it through, Sherlock.

Why can't I hurt you just because I want to? Why am I not allowed to cut you with a knife, just for fun? Why would I be prosecuted by law if I did that?

Think. Please.

Becuase long ago mankind discovered if they worked together they could eat more tasty animals than when they stabbed each other.

How long do your ranch catle live for, on average? Do you know, or care?

And why are they bred in the first place?

They live long enough to enjoy their pampered existance and sure they were bred for beef and leather but that is still quite moral.


Actually I got something for you, next time you get a sinus or ear infection I dare you to not take anything boost your immune system and let it run it's course. When you do that perhaps I will listen to you about giving animals the same rights as human beings. Until then you are just talking crap.

 

[Zappa]

We like the taste of foods that are good for us it is how we evolved.

Oh, you mean like twinkies?

 

[TW Scott]

Oh, you mean like twinkies?

Easily explained. While we were in our hunter/gatherer stage high calorie food was neccesary to survive through harder times. Well fatty and Surgary food are the highest in calories. So we as a species developed a sweet tooth.

 

[James R]

Zappa:

Are you atheist?

Actually, I'd prefer not to say. I'd rather maintain my mystique in the Religion forum. Once you say you have a particular religious belief system, people start making all kinds of snap judgements about you.

On the other hand, you can probably get some idea about my religious beliefs from my posts on the topic of religion...

If there is no God or religion, why is it necessary to be ethical? I can see it in the social sense: You know that hurting other people will bring serious repercussions. But that's purely social motivation. There is nothing in the way of killing animals for eating pleasure, so why not?

From where is this sense of good and evil you have?

This is an interesting question. Some religious people say ethics are handed down by God. Take God out of the picture and there's no reason to act morally.

Suppose you are religious. Why do you believe cold-blooded murder is bad? Because God (the bible, the Koran, whatever) says it is evil, you say. Now, consider why God says it is evil. Is murder evil just because God says it is? If so, then there's no reason why God couldn't change His mind tomorrow and declare that, from now on, murder is to be considered good, and everybody should commit murder.

On the other hand, maybe God says murder is evil because God is all-knowing and can see the consequences of murder. He knows it is bad, so He tells people not to murder. If that is true, though, then the wrongness of murder does not come from God, but from something separate from God. Murder would still be evil, even if God declared it to be good.

My view is that ethics is not just the whim of God. There are sound reasons to act ethically which are quite independent of what any holy book might say about the matter, or whatever laws are handed down by the fiat of a deity. You touched on one possible set of reasons: social repercussions. It makes good sense to treat others as you would wish yourself to be treated. But morality extends beyond personal consequences. One should not act morally just because you're afraid of possible negative consequences on the personal level. There is also an element of respect for life, the environment, the world in which you live, in my opinion.

Morality is not just a matter of what you can get away with, as so many of the participants in this thread seem to think.

 

[James R]

TW Scott:

I notice you still can't produce any moral justification for meat eating. End of argument, I guess.

Hmm, veal is calf not lamb, but then again I can'tt expect you to tell any truth can I?

My mistake. I wrote "lamb" instead of "calf".

Now, have you got anything substantive, or do you just want to nit-pick?

We like the taste of foods that are good for us it is how we evolved.

Yes. Now, explain how that makes meat-eating right - if you can.

You're still stuck in the naturalistic fallacy.

Why do you think it is ok to wear clothes, TW Scott? That's not natural.

They live long enough to enjoy their pampered existance and sure they were bred for beef and leather but that is still quite moral.

Why?

Actually I got something for you, next time you get a sinus or ear infection I dare you to not take anything boost your immune system and let it run it's course.

Why should I do that? How is it relevant to this discussion? You seem confused about what the issues are here.