Anger as a prelude to intolerance

You say you see the signs. I dont know them nor their families. Cullen studied them, he claimed that much of what we intially heard was wrong that they weren't bullied they were bullies, they had popularity among their friends, that they were pyschotic. That's what he knows that's what I hear. I did mention that there were neurobiological reasons why such a thing might happen. Truth is sniffy everything I had to say about it was said in the thread. I have posted them again for you above. What I had to say about it is all I have to say about it. Like I said go talk to Fraggle.

You want to reduce all the worlds ills to anger. Fine. I disagree with you. I think there are a wider variety of complexity to many world issues, many variables, perspecitves, historical power dynamics etc. Not simply the feeling of anger and how you were treated as a child.
 
Because sniffy believes all such are preventable. I disagree, I think you would be more likely to find a solution to Palestine Israeli problems than prevent those innately personal and intimate issues. And I am not poking fun either i'm being serious.

A good question for Sniffy might be what if they didn't want to be saved? What if they resist your love and rescue efforts? Some things are not reversible.
 
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Signal said:
Why should there be not even one such incident?

Because Earth is Heaven?
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No. I know very well that 'shit happens' but do I have to proud of the fact too? But as the gustav link appears to confirm in the columbine case it wasn't just shit happening randomly. People were afraid of those two for a long time. They raised the alarm. A plan had even been made to cope with gun related incidents at the school but the school didn't implement them.

So it wasn't a case of oh gee look what those guys did who'd have thought it nobody saw that coming like some folks claimed. There were obvious signs that something wasn't right about them. They weren't just a bit off kilter they were at a worryingly extreme end of a behavioral scale.

Overlooked or ignored.

But if you choose to ignore something don't be surpised if something else blows up in your face.

And like I said if you don't recognise them in High School they might just grow up to become your elected (or unelected) leader. Or somebody else's supported, by your tax 'dollar'.
 
Lucysnow said:
Because sniffy believes all such are preventable. I disagree, I think you would be more likely to find a solution to Palestine Israeli problems than prevent those innately personal and intimate issues. And I am not poking fun either i'm being serious.

A good question for Sniffy might be what if they didn't want to be saved? What if they resist your love and rescue efforts? Some things are not reversible.
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Mamma Mia!!

It's not about them being saved! It's about those other kids you know who maybe weren't ready to die with them! Recognise the psychotic little shit and put them away and let the rest get on with living!
 
Well here we go. It gets back to the question of being able to zero in on every kid. Well maybe in N. Korea but not in the States. First what if the parents don't care? What if there are too many students in a classroom? Or the student doesn't display any recognizable signs? unless you want to have teenagers committed every time they behave 'strange'. Or their friends are too busy being kids to notice. Or the kid keeps things to themselves. There are too many variables when looking for a psychotic in a hay stack.
 
Sniffy: Or somebody else's supported, by your tax 'dollar'.

Well they would be supported by us anyway even if in prison or an institution unless we execute them.
 
Lucysnow said:
Well here we go. It gets back to the question of being able to zero in on every kid. Well maybe in N. Korea but not in the States. First what if the parents don't care? What if there are too many students in a classroom? Or the student doesn't display any recognizable signs? unless you want to have teenagers committed every time they behave 'strange'. Or their friends are too busy being kids to notice. Or the kid keeps things to themselves. There are too many variables when looking for a psychotic in a hay stack.
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No there aren't many variables actually to psychotic behaviour. The columbine kids were doing everything bar shouting into the head teacher's ear that they were going to kill their class mates. They even had a website. Wrote stories. Bragged about it. Delusions of gradeur and an arsenal that Saddam himself would have been proud of that they pysically showed to other classmates.

Ever seen Gus van Sant's movie 'Elephant'?
 
Lucysnow said:
Well here we go. It gets back to the question of being able to zero in on every kid.
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No it's not.
It's about doing something with the ones that have already been flagged.

Well maybe in N. Korea but not in the States. First what if the parents don't care? What if there are too many students in a classroom? Or the student doesn't display any recognizable signs?
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How about "what if somebody had actually listened and taken notice of the already-pointed out warning signs"?
"but not in the States" - yeah we support the constitutional right of kids to blow their class mates away.

unless you want to have teenagers committed every time they behave 'strange'. Or their friends are too busy being kids to notice. Or the kid keeps things to themselves. There are too many variables when looking for a psychotic in a hay stack.
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They weren't looking for a psychotic in a haystack - the psychos were effectively telling everyone what they were and still no-one did anything.

Forget Mondays, I'm started to dislike every day.
 
"Where were Harris and Klebold's parents all this time? They have never spoken publicly about Columbine, but in police interviews they said they had no idea about the arsenal of weapons their sons were amassing in their bedrooms - including knives, guns, cans full of gunpowder, coils of bomb fuse, and bombs - more than 100 of them, including pipe bombs, propane bombs and homemade grenades.

At night, while their parents were asleep, Harris and Klebold made video tapes in which they talked about all the weapons they had. Harris imagined his parents saying, "If only we had checked his room. If only we had asked more questions.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/04/17/60II/main286163.shtml
 
sniffy said:
No there aren't many variables actually to psychotic behaviour. The columbine kids were doing everything bar shouting into the head teacher's ear that they were going to kill their class mates. They even had a website. Wrote stories. Bragged about it. Delusions of gradeur and an arsenal that Saddam himself would have been proud of that they pysically showed to other classmates.

Ever seen Gus van Sant's movie 'Elephant'?
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Haven't seen Elephant but I have heard about the website and so on. But from what I understand that wasn't something they widely broadcast, not even their parents knew of all this. There is also footage of them also having target practise in the woods on weekends. etc
 
Oli said:
They weren't looking for a psychotic in a haystack - the psychos were effectively telling everyone what they were and still no-one did anything.
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To me, this knowing but not doing anything is a sign of our general reluctance to confront a problem or a conflict.
 
Lucysnow said:
Haven't seen Elephant but I have heard about the website and so on. But from what I understand that wasn't something they widely broadcast, not even their parents knew of all this. There is also footage of them also having target practise in the woods on weekends. etc
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LS they had the weapons in their bedrooms.....

and

Harris imagined his parents saying, "If only we had checked his room. If only we had asked more questions.""

That in parental parlance is a cry for help. Mum and Dad give enough of a shit to stop me.

Really. Read it and weep.
 
Oli said:
No it's not.
It's about doing something with the ones that have already been flagged.


How about "what if somebody had actually listened and taken notice of the already-pointed out warning signs"?
"but not in the States" - yeah we support the constitutional right of kids to blow their class mates away.


They weren't looking for a psychotic in a haystack - the psychos were effectively telling everyone what they were and still no-one did anything.Forget Mondays, I'm started to dislike every day.
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Not necessarily unless you can prove that people knew about the website and thought it serious, or had read their diaries etc. You can forcibly committ someone if you think they are going to hurt themselves and others its called Kendra's Law but it hasn't stopped every individual because unless you have everyone under an orwellian system you cannot indefinitely control someone based on what they might do. Which is why I brought up resistance. Do you know how many troubled kids learn how to mask behavior as they know what the rules are. They know if they say 'I want to kill myself' that they don't get out of a psych unit. They know if they say they no longer feel that way that they will. There are too many holes in the system to control an adamant psychotic who can control feelings in the face of an adult, who knows how to mask. That's the difference between the depressed frustrated child and the psychotic. The depressed angsting teenager cannot contain it at all.

You are looking for a psychotic in a haystack if you want to catch all future breaks which is what Sniffy proposed. Stopping any and every child who shows signs of something, which amounts to sifting through to find the deadly one.. As it stands now the system does help some people, the truth is that not all disturbed kids are murdering tits so its easy to underestimate a situation. Its like the real life story of the teacher who looked sad by the water fountain and when asked what was wrong he said, 'Everything is so bad I could kill myself'. The other teacher pat him on the back, told him to feel better and walked away. A few weeks later he jumped out of his manhattan high rise. Could someone have stopped him? Maybe but probably not.
 
sniffy said:
"Where were Harris and Klebold's parents all this time? They have never spoken publicly about Columbine, but in police interviews they said they had no idea about the arsenal of weapons their sons were amassing in their bedrooms - including knives, guns, cans full of gunpowder, coils of bomb fuse, and bombs - more than 100 of them, including pipe bombs, propane bombs and homemade grenades.

At night, while their parents were asleep, Harris and Klebold made video tapes in which they talked about all the weapons they had. Harris imagined his parents saying, "If only we had checked his room. If only we had asked more questions.""

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/04/17/60II/main286163.shtml
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Well of course they said that. What else where they going to say. Not being attentive is not the same as knowing but doing nothing.
 
sniffy said:
No. I know very well that 'shit happens' but do I have to proud of the fact too? But as the gustav link appears to confirm in the columbine case it wasn't just shit happening randomly. People were afraid of those two for a long time. They raised the alarm. A plan had even been made to cope with gun related incidents at the school but the school didn't implement them.

So it wasn't a case of oh gee look what those guys did who'd have thought it nobody saw that coming like some folks claimed. There were obvious signs that something wasn't right about them. They weren't just a bit off kilter they were at a worryingly extreme end of a behavioral scale.

Overlooked or ignored.

But if you choose to ignore something don't be surpised if something else blows up in your face.

And like I said if you don't recognise them in High School they might just grow up to become your elected (or unelected) leader. Or somebody else's supported, by your tax 'dollar'.
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I think such situations are complex, and by now have progressed so far that it is impossible to resolve them.

I don't mean to sound like an anarchist, but I really do think that our culture has come so far that such things as the Columbine killings, with all the early enough and clear signs just cannot be resolved anymore, without at the same time abusing some principle or some person.

Consider: If there would be no 'freedom of speech' or if it wouldn't be assigned the respect that it has been, a situation like that at Columbine would be resolved quickly. But now, everyone is supposed to have a say, everyone should be heard and respected and so on, and there are millions of people with their inputs and whose right to express themselves needs to be respected - and this just halts the whole system of solving a problem.

This is not to say that 'freedom of speech' is the only hindering factor when it comes to effectively dealing with problems. There are probably more such things that we nowadays consider our 'rights' or 'unalienable privileges', and which we will defend at great costs. But, conversely, defending them also makes solving social (and personal) problems very difficult and ineffective.
 
FOR FUCK's SAKE!!!!!!!!


.....arsenal of weapons their sons were amassing in their bedrooms - including knives, guns, cans full of gunpowder, coils of bomb fuse, and bombs - more than 100 of them, including pipe bombs, propane bombs and homemade grenades.

:shrug::shrug::shrug:

In their bedrooms in their bedrooms in their bedrooms
 
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