Anger as a prelude to intolerance

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
According to the logic of Baron here:

Just to show, Lucy, that people like you only pretend to care about people and other nations. At the first sign of disagreement, you're the first to lash out in anger and personal attacks. If you had been the president of the USA after 9/11, you'd have not only invaded Afghanistan, you'd have dropped several nukes on 'em and laughed about it!! Lucy, you don't care about others, you only pretend to care .....c'mon, admit it. :D

Your anger proves far more to me (and probably others) than do all of your nice-sounding words of love and compassion and caring and empathy.

Baron Max

If you get angry at some powerless person being taken advantage of, it makes you as bad as the one taking advantage and is a sign of uncaring. Apparently if you can just sit there and make conversation with the beater instead, this is a sign of empathy.

Is this true? Discuss
 
I interpreted it in a larger context, that there will be no absolute peace between nations as long as we as individuals get angry so easily. The basic problem isn't diplomatic, it's biological. Of course, there is righteous anger and misplaced anger. Also, Baron does employ some questionable logic as he often does, such as saying the NAACP is inherently racist because they help colored people.
 
So a cold clinical thought process is better than a subjective viewpoint?
 
A
If you get angry at some powerless person being taken advantage of, it makes you as bad as the one taking advantage and is a sign of uncaring. Apparently if you can just sit there and make conversation with the beater instead, this is a sign of empathy.

Is this true? Discuss

Who said caring, good, people can't ever be angry. The problem with barons argument is that since she sounds angry she doesnt really care what she says she just enjoys putting it in peoples faces. I don't think thats true. You can be angry and right at the same time.


IAlso, Baron does employ some questionable logic as he often does, such as saying the NAACP is inherently racist because they help colored people.
in some way it is
 
It depends on what kind of mind you are talking about.

It appears that, for humans, once you've started down the road of hurting someone, you must continue. Indeed, you must hurt them even more to prove to yourself these people deserve to be hurt. That's because our psyche's Prime Directive is to preserve our self-image at all cost.

Due to the Prime Directive, when we hurt others our psyche tell us that our victims are dirty thieves. After all, they are trying to steal our most valuable possession: our self-image. And what do you do to dirty thieves? YOU PUNISH THEM. And when they try to make you feel bad about this new punishment, this just goes to show what giant dirty thieves they are, so you must PUNISH THEM MORE.

Indeed, in my experience the process doesn't just work like this between groups; as Jimmy Dell says, it also works exactly the same way on a one on one level. Many times when I've treated people badly, I've found myself filled with a sudden, inexplicable surge of anger toward them. And when people have treated me badly, they've often followed it up by lashing out at me in peculiar ways.

Understanding how this drives human cruelty doesn't directly change anything in the world outside you. But it does change the inside of you, and makes living in the world less painful. It also suggests strategies for lessening human cruelty that may be more effective than what we usually try.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/2009_01.html
 
I have hurt people before and apologized. Or felt bad half way through.

I dont believe that being angry at someone means you will keep treating them like shit repeatedly. Sometimes being angry just helps prove a point.
 
So a cold clinical thought process is better than a subjective viewpoint?

Where's the difference?

Or are you asking about the difference between a basically impersonalist (problem-oriented) approach, and a person-oriented approach?
 
According to the logic of Baron here:

If you get angry at some powerless person being taken advantage of, it makes you as bad as the one taking advantage and is a sign of uncaring. Apparently if you can just sit there and make conversation with the beater instead, this is a sign of empathy.

Is this true? Discuss

No, SAM, you missed it almost completely. Spidergoat is mostly correct in how I meant what I said to Lucy.

But we see it here at the forums all the time ...a person pretends to be oh, so goody-two-shoes, so compassionate towards people ....then at the first sign of disagreement, they are the first to resort to anger, to lash out in anger at someone who disagrees. See? They aren't loving and compassionate, they just say that, just make that claim, while being no different to all the others in the world.

Baron Max
 
So a cold clinical thought process is better than a subjective viewpoint?

No, calm, intelligent, tolerant, understanding discussion is better than a leap to anger and intolerance and hatred. That is, of course, if the goal is toward getting along or in diplomacy between nations, etc.

The moment one of the parties in a discussion turns to anger, all hope of tolerance and diplomatic intercourse is impossible. People can make claims of being tolerant and understanding, but it's often difficult to back that up with tolerance and understanding when there is disagreement.

Baron Max
 
Me dear Baron there are ways of responding to anger in order to dissipate it. People often have legitimate causes for being angry. Angry people tend to get angrier when their anger is not acknowledged or when it is deliberately stoked. On an internet site it can be even more difficult to 'manage' anger because there are no visual clues (aside from those stoopid emoticons). Also easier to cause it I expect as there are no pysical ways to dissipate it.

It is not easy to work with anger but it isn't impossible. The difference between effective diplomacy and something else.

Of course there is a point in which anger is so volatile that it is best to get the heck out of a place.
 
No, SAM, you missed it almost completely. Spidergoat is mostly correct in how I meant what I said to Lucy.

But we see it here at the forums all the time ...a person pretends to be oh, so goody-two-shoes, so compassionate towards people ....then at the first sign of disagreement, they are the first to resort to anger, to lash out in anger at someone who disagrees. See? They aren't loving and compassionate, they just say that, just make that claim, while being no different to all the others in the world.

Baron Max

You're assuming that a loving compassionate person cannot get angry. Ever seen a really really undernourished person? And then listened to the fat fucks who demonise them?
 
You're assuming that a loving compassionate person cannot get angry.

Can a person at the same time be loving-compassionate and angry?

Is loving-compassionate a person's permanent quality, a quality inherent to them?
 
Presuppositions

Baron Max said:

But we see it here at the forums all the time ...a person pretends to be oh, so goody-two-shoes, so compassionate towards people ....then at the first sign of disagreement, they are the first to resort to anger, to lash out in anger at someone who disagrees. See? They aren't loving and compassionate, they just say that, just make that claim, while being no different to all the others in the world.

You presume much, Max. Some disagreement is dishonest, some is based on insupportable theses. If every circumstance occurred in its own conceptual vacuum, the presuppositions of your objection would be reliable. But as it is, you're conflating separate issues. As Spidergoat pointed out, there is both righteous and misplaced anger. Or Sniffy, "People often have legitimate causes for being angry".

In a setting like Sciforums, sometimes the causes of anger, legitimate or otherwise, are actually separate from the issue itself. This only compounds the problem. But around here there are plenty who pretend they're utterly and completely stupid, purporting to serve humanity in some way by being an idiot. After a while, this behavior will, if left unchecked, start to annoy the hell out of people. One should not be insulted by being presumed intelligent. And one certainly should expect that if they make a point of being an idiot, people will consider them an idiot.

Or there is the classic bit where someone is completely blind to the demands and implications of their own argument. Many times, when called out, people will say, and quite lamely, "I never said that." And it's quite stupid. Sure, one never comes out and says that A = B, but when one's argument compares A and B as equivalents in a consequential outcome, they're making the same point. It's often hard to believe that people with certain degrees of education are actually incapable of figuring this out.

Every once in a while, one might try a trolling trick wherein they construe an attempt to follow a principle to its logical end as a declaration of belief. It's the dumbest thing that employs a fallacious if/then construct in order to pretend one cannot grasp if/then constructs, as in, "If we follow this course of action, then this will be among the results." There are far better ways to deal with these explorations, so this particularly lazy form of disagreement tends to annoy people.

And sometimes people are just fatigued. For instance, at some point it becomes difficult to develop new responses to basic disagreements because the other refuses to even acknowledge the counterpoints raised. Indeed, sometimes the disagreement is invested in that very failure of acknowledgment. There's only so much of this people are expected to tolerate.

Certainly there are occasional outbursts that seem inexplicable. Then again, not everybody keeps the emotional influences of the rest of their lives out of their Sciforums' personas. It's not exactly fair to take those things out on the community, but it's also a natural tendency among people. And that brings us to the fact of human imperfection.

Because you cannot conclude from such incidents that anger diminishes one's love and compassion unless you presuppose the illegitimacy of any given anger, the good faith of the disagreement, and the usurpation of human imperfection by willful corruption at the very least. And in a community like this, both as a general principle and in specific observation of the site's history, those are dangerous presuppositions with an application bordering on irresponsible.
 
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Common psychological conflict

Signal said:

Can a person at the same time be loving-compassionate and angry?

Well, yes, but at some point it becomes a dysfunction. This is a deeply-seeded part of the American cultural heritage, and I'm pretty sure we learned it not only through our European ancestry but through any culture that has ever entered our American history.

Ever hear the phrase, "This will hurt me more than it will you"? It is an essential distillation of the idea.
 
What if you are intolerant of intolerance? Does that mean we should tolerate intolerance, in order to teach by example?
 
What if you are intolerant of intolerance? Does that mean we should tolerate intolerance, in order to teach by example?

According to Jesus thats how it works.

I have serious doubts as to how much, if any, of the historical Jesus is actually true. In the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus (allegedly) says: "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Me, I'm not so keen on getting 2 cheeks striken. So after I'm striken first, I may not strike back; I do go for Mahatma Gandhi's remark, "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."

However, I'm not a masochist either. So if I'm striken once, I may not hit back, but I will probably atleast withdraw from the violent source, not offer the other cheek.

So, in regards to tolerating intolerance, I think the same approach is generally good; so long as the intolerant aren't harming anyone, I'll let them be. If they begin to harm though, I may not act in precisely the same way; but if it's within my field of influence to stop or atleast diminish the harm, I think that's the best course of action.

I'll give you an example; perhaps it's not quite so conceptual, but sometimes I think it's good to get a bit more practical. The other day, I was playing an online game; a friend of mine had gotten hit by a non player character. This made her go into PVP (Player vs. Player) and a player from the opposite faction (horde) attacked and killed her. I arrived. I wasn't yet PVP, but there was the horde who'd done it to her. Now the odds were that we could have toasted him. But we were in Horde territory; he might have allies nearby and what at one point looked like a surefire win could in a moment look quite different. So I told her that we should just walk away. She couldn't bring herself to leave though. And then another guy from our faction walked in... and attacked the horde. Now I -could- have let him fight alone. But the Horde had already attacked my friend without provocation and if we just let him fight against the Horde alone, the Horde guy had good odds of winning. So I stepped in and we toasted him. I then stressed that we should leave immediately, because the potential friends in question might have been called in by that point; this time she listened and we were off.
 
No, calm, intelligent, tolerant, understanding discussion is better than a leap to anger and intolerance and hatred. That is, of course, if the goal is toward getting along or in diplomacy between nations, etc.

The moment one of the parties in a discussion turns to anger, all hope of tolerance and diplomatic intercourse is impossible. People can make claims of being tolerant and understanding, but it's often difficult to back that up with tolerance and understanding when there is disagreement.

Baron Max

I asked you continuously to prove your constant allegations of hypocrisy by citing a post which proves this and your response was to not do so and continue to call me a 'hippo critter'. If you were serious about your claims or the discussion you would have either have proved my hypocrisy or focused on the topic...you chose to do neither. Pakistan wasnt the issue nor was proving me a 'hippo critter' just you farting in print, so I openly insulted you and no I am not sorry anymore than you are. I wan't angry with you Baron, up until a point i actually thought you were working from some sort of conviction until you outlined your basic apathy, then there was no point in discussing anything with you because my passions are wasted on someone doing nothing but wasting time. Like I said I found your attitude sad, pathetic. I don't join threads just to piss in them like you did in Khmer rouge thread, especially if its a serious discussion. You had nothing, absolutely nothing of value to add to that discussion except your incontinence. AND NOW YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO MENTION DIPLOMACY!

I don't even know why you bothered to respond to this thread, I mean its like you said the grand explanation for all things 'shit happens' right.

And for the record, you have no reason to think me a loving nor compassionate person, none of these issues have anything to do with love or compassion, justice, transparency and having historical balance are issues in discussions like the KR, Pakistan or Sovereignty. But I wouldn't expect you to have the insight to understand that.


Behold your amazing acumen & contribution:

From the KR thread:

"What could the USA possibly want from that shit-hole, stinkin', poverty-stricken nation??

Besides, if we ever actually wanted something, we could just take it ...and toss a few coins to 'em just for the fun of watching the Cambodians fight over them."

Baron Max

From the Talliban thread:

"If you look around the world, you'll see readily that "Shit happens". Now you can look at some event that happened just before the Shit happened and say, "See, X caused that Shit to happen!" It didn't cause it, it just happened to be an event that happened earlier, that's all."

What a shining example of intellectual acumen and diplomacy you are.:rolleyes:
 
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