An unusual persepctive on God- or not?

[RoyLennigan]

I have a question about what you mean with "unity". The principle is easy enough to understand, but "connectedness" can be expressed in different ways. Is it the unity of an intradependent system (like different cells relying on each other to form an organ), of interdependent systems (different organs relying on each other to form a complex system), or of independent systems (different people relying on each other in a society).

they're basically analogues of the same thing, even though they work in different ways, the interactions on one level are mirrored by the interactions on another level. specialized cells relying on each other in a body are mirrored by specialized humans working together in a society. the things themselves are different, but their interactions are the same because they are relative to each other in the same way. this is only generally speaking, though because every event is circumstantial and can only be defined in context. you can predict the movement of a cloud of gas, but you cannot predict the movement of a single particle of that gas.

I ask because the meaning will affect your argument. It's one thing to say that God is this unity, but that would mean God is (currently) divided, and therefore also not this unity (unless you don't mean "God" in any coherent sense at all). An alternative might be to say that God represents such unity, or "stands for" it - independent of the current situation. To put it simply, people living in harmony (presumably by actively managing their relationships with other people, but still uniquely contributing), would then be in accordance with God's will, which is/was His original design, and those who don't would be deviating from it. What do you think?

entities and things in the universe are not inherently divided. as humans, we feel the need to define things by associating them to symbols. in doing so, we create the distinction between things that isn't necessarily there. in reality, all things are dependant on each other and all actions affect all other actions and the overall state of the universe.

my sense of god is this: that the universe acts in a similar fashion as the human mind. the universe is simply a web of interactions and for each interaction there is a point in space which is the fulcrum of that interaction. the analogue of each fulcrum is the neuron or maybe just the synapse in the human brain. so the universe as a whole could possibly have this consciousness made up of a web of interactions, just as our own consciousness is made up of the web of interactions in our brain.

This message that you're bringing, is it exclusive, or can someone who prefers his own kind of unity (say, a single world government under his own rule) also claim it? Are facists and dictators, for example, included?

it doesn't depend on if you prefer your own kind of unity. the unity of the universe exists independant of your acceptance of it. your actions affect the lives of organisms around you, as well as non-living things. your feet leave footprints in the soil. your body disrupts patterns in the wind. how could facists and dictators not be included? they are some of the most powerful living interactions on this planet.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Thanks roy

Also Jenyar, its important to realise I do not have all the answers as I am not proposing a new religion. I myself have always believed in God, but could not before define God. Maybe God is my subconscious mind talking to my conscious mind, who knows. Really none of us can know for sure, but I do know that I feel as though I have a an experience of god and that is interactive in my life but its not the traditional view. I decided before I made this thread to ask that silent part of myself how I should define God for the purposes of a new thread . And the word that came to mind was unification, unity. Prior to this I never thought of God in these terms. I did think of god as seperate to myself. But after asking the question, I now feel very much God is part of me. Thus God is part of us all, but not in the form we traditionally expect. More pertaining to a connectedness with self for well being of self, that can then be shared by feelings of goodwill towards others. And the greater the feelings of goodwill towards others, the increase in general harmonious quality of life for all. Feeling God, experiencing God is thus a heightened experience of love and trust within one self that can be felt by others and shared with others to assist them in achieving this heightened sense of well being. It's hard for me to communicate but I know that this sense of connectedness relates to the general makeup of the universe. I have always been aware that without bad there is no good, so have never had issues with believing in God and 'bad' existing at the same time. We need one in order to be aware of the other, to appreciate the other, to embrace and welcome and strive to attain the other.

Some of what I am trying to explain re the connectdness of every living thing that is mirrored in all forms of life can be seen in fractals.

I know very little about fractals, but that is what is now coming to mind.

perhaps Roy can expand and how this may be related.

I am a spiritual person in the sense that I listen to myself, to the quiet instinctive part that others perhaps dismiss in themselves.

Maybe God will always represent something different to those that believe.

 

[SnakeLord]

Prior to this I never thought of God in these terms. I did think of god as seperate to myself.

It's actually quite charming to see people evolving right before your eyes. Can't say I like all that "oneness" crap, but still.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

http://www.fractalus.com/info/layman.htm

Link to fractals

 

[SnakeLord]

Re the oneness thing, have you never woken on a beautiful spring morning, when the sky is clear, the sun is bright and the air is fresh and crisp

Certainly.

you feel a wonder of nature that fills your heart and makes you appreciate the awesome magnificence that is life. And think..fuck, I am glad to be alive. That feeling is God.

I agree except for your last sentence.

If you can hold onto to it and pass it on..what a wonderful world it would be.

At times everyone is aware that nature is nice, but then some twat comes along and ruins it by trying to sell you some belief in stupid sky beings. What you're doing is replacing perfectly adequate words with the word 'god', but it doesn't make it any less twattish.

 

[RoyLennigan]

Thanks roy

Also Jenyar, its important to realise I do not have all the answers as I am not proposing a new religion. I myself have always believed in God, but could not before define God. Maybe God is my subconscious mind talking to my conscious mind, who knows. Really none of us can know for sure, but I do know that I feel as though I have a an experience of god and that is interactive in my life but its not the traditional view. I decided before I made this thread to ask that silent part of myself how I should define God for the purposes of a new thread . And the word that came to mind was unification, unity. Prior to this I never thought of God in these terms. I did think of god as seperate to myself. But after asking the question, I now feel very much God is part of me. Thus God is part of us all, but not in the form we traditionally expect. More pertaining to a connectedness with self for well being of self, that can then be shared by feelings of goodwill towards others. And the greater the feelings of goodwill towards others, the increase in general harmonious quality of life for all. Feeling God, experiencing God is thus a heightened experience of love and trust within one self that can be felt by others and shared with others to assist them in achieving this heightened sense of well being. It's hard for me to communicate but I know that this sense of connectedness relates to the general makeup of the universe. I have always been aware that without bad there is no good, so have never had issues with believing in God and 'bad' existing at the same time. We need one in order to be aware of the other, to appreciate the other, to embrace and welcome and strive to attain the other.

Some of what I am trying to explain re the connectdness of every living thing that is mirrored in all forms of life can be seen in fractals.

I know very little about fractals, but that is what is now coming to mind.

perhaps Roy can expand and how this may be related.

I am a spiritual person in the sense that I listen to myself, to the quiet instinctive part that others perhaps dismiss in themselves.

Maybe God will always represent something different to those that believe.

yeah i think we're getting on the same wavelength here.

God manifests itself in different ways to different people. or rather, i should say that different people see god in different things. i think that is people seeing a glimpse of unity in things, but not being able to grasp or remember it completely. like you are saying, god is that unity of all things. like us, though, god changes as god's composition changes. the universe expands and god's mind expands with it along with all the rammifications of that expansion.

but we don't have to call it god, as many people have pointed out. the only reason to call it god now is because so many people are addicted to the word. what is a word but a metaphor for what actually exists. i am not arguing against the word god in particular, just for an understanding that god in actuality is not what we make it--but the word 'god' is.

that site on fractals is really cool. and fractals are just awesome. awesome in the true meaning of the word, not the overused one. they are like a mirror of life and of god and unity. all natural structures can be described as fractals. they all work on mathematic interactions such as the Golden Ratio. They fit together and combine almost infinitely based on a set of constants--which i believe to be merely a set of quantities relative to each other and by being so, they appear constant because they are always in balance (they are able to change, but energy gained in one side is taken from another and so it evens out).

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Thanks Roy, I am interested now in looking at the relationship between maths and god. Maths being the only thing we can really be sure of in this world, the only real truth.

 

[Jenyar]

Maybe God will always represent something different to those that believe.

Thanks for the explanation TOR. It's a very basic expression of what I believe, but not that much different. I also believe that relationships are the purest expression of "religion" (or spirituality, if you prefer) - that's what each of the Ten Commandments come down to (Rom. 13:10), and what Jesus taught (Matt. 22:27-40). Though I don't come to the conclusion that the one is the other, our relationship with people and nature certainly reflects our relationship with God very directly.

 

[wesmorris]

In other words we simply call something 'God'. I don't see why it's required, but whatever. So long as an idea of God, or interpretations of God exist, there will always be some degree of conflict.

So long as there is subjectivity there will be some degree of conflict. And were there no subjectivity, there would be nothing to be conflicted. "conflict" is the expression of divergent value (in the broadest economic sense of utlity). Divergence can be resolved if the parties involved "can relate" and are willing to comprimise.

So as long as there are people, there will be some degree of conflict, god or no god.

 

[Jenyar]

Well said wesmorris. Can I quote you?

 

[KennyJC]

So as long as there are people, there will be some degree of conflict, god or no god.

Except without God, there would be substantially less than there would be if there is.

All of the most religious regions are currently at each others throats.

 

[Jenyar]

Except without God, there would be substantially less than there would be if there is.

All of the most religious regions are currently at each others throats.

Which non-religious regions/countries have you factored into this appraisal?

 

[staples disconnected]

God is unity - The unification of all things.

Life was not born from the sun alone, water and other vital elements were needed in a process of unification for life to come into being, all life depends on that unification, without it there is no life.

The unification that brought about life enabled nature which embodies harmony and balance. An order of life evolved whereby each life form depends upon another for survival, nothing exists on its own. There is a connectedness that is vital for the continuance of all life. All life forms must be unified to exist in harmony and with balance.

The human population is NOT unified, hence the disharmony and imbalance, ie war, famine, disease.

Religion does not unify people it divides them. Religion is man made not God made.

You won't find God by looking to religion, you will find God by looking to your neighbour and creating unity in your life and your surroundings.

Connectedness is the secret to discovering God.
When the human race is united they will know God.



IMO

NOTE this has nothing to DO with the unification church! I just googled and found thats an actual religion. It's a word that is all!

That's lovely, but totally unrealistic. Not to mention- how you define human balance? As far as I can see we don't actually exist within any paradigm of nature to which we can revert. Or perhaps advance to.

I think arguing for balance is like saying all humans are created equal. Regardless of whether you personally believe humans were 'created' or not, that notion is utter bullshit.

There will always be competition. That is natural. What human's have created as their society, that is not natural. In any form or shape. I hope you're not arguing for some communist bullshit. Even though it would be an ideal form of existence, in practicality it denies human diversity, and for some reason has always turned into dictatorships.

You may argue that humanity is as far away from this notion of unity or god as you want, but you need to define many things before you can propound such a belief.

 

[KennyJC]

Which non-religious regions/countries have you factored into this appraisal?

My point was strong religious countries, not non-religious.

I was talking about America and the Middle East of course.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

I hope you're not arguing for some communist bullshit. .

No, I'm not a communist and I think you need to read the rest of the thread

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

This is so awesome

http://www.damienmjones.com/tools/external?50th

 

[BSFilter]

Neat fractals. It is interesting to consider the organization of things, because if you think about almost everything is organized in the same way.
At the base level, you have the pieces which compose everything else. These pieces organize themselves into localized systems, following entropy and other laws. These systems interact with each other, forming larger more complex systems capable of more complicated tasks. The interesting thing is that you can break it down, or build it up almost an impossible number of times. I think this is what you guys are saying when you say all things are connected, right? In which case I would agree.

You can see this process everywhere, if you know how to look for it. Here on earth we see this organization in almost all life: cells,tissues,organs,organ systems,etc..
Taking it beyond the scope of this planet: atoms, matter, solar systems, galaxies, universe, multiverse? etc.. (im sure im missing some steps here) Each is a part of the previous, and of course part of the whole.
The level of organization is amazing, and definitely beyond the ability of human thought.

"They fit together and combine almost infinitely based on a set of constants"
Hmm, like the constant speed of light, and other electromagnetic waves? I wonder if there are other constants we are not aware of yet? THE UNIVERSE IS A GIANT FRACTAL, AHHH!

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Neat fractals. It is interesting to consider the organization of things, because if you think about almost everything is organized in the same way.
At the base level, you have the pieces which compose everything else. These pieces organize themselves into localized systems, following entropy and other laws. These systems interact with each other, forming larger more complex systems capable of more complicated tasks. The interesting thing is that you can break it down, or build it up almost an impossible number of times. I think this is what you guys are saying when you say all things are connected, right? In which case I would agree.

Indeed, this is it exactly

You can see this process everywhere, if you know how to look for it. Here on earth we see this organization in almost all life: cells,tissues,organs,organ systems,etc..
Taking it beyond the scope of this planet: atoms, matter, solar systems, galaxies, universe, multiverse? etc.. (im sure im missing some steps here) Each is a part of the previous, and of course part of the whole.
The level of organization is amazing, and definitely beyond the ability of human thought.

"They fit together and combine almost infinitely based on a set of constants"
Hmm, like the constant speed of light, and other electromagnetic waves? I wonder if there are other constants we are not aware of yet? THE UNIVERSE IS A GIANT FRACTAL, AHHH!

"THE UNIVERSE IS A GIANT FRACTAL"
If the universe was a giant fractal, might this explain why it 'appears' to be expanding. Fractals are infinite are they are not? Except they appear finite based on whatever limits of vision are applied. It is only with closer inspection, greater tools of detection, we see more...and more...and more.....and more

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Next thought - Double Helix


The origin of all life = double helix
double helix found in space

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/cosmic-dna-double-helix-spotted-in-space
"The double helix shape is commonly seen inside living organisms, but this is the first time it has been observed in the cosmos.

“Nobody has ever seen anything like that before in the cosmic realm,” said the study’s lead author Mark Morris of UCLA. “Most nebulae are either spiral galaxies full of stars or formless amorphous conglomerations of dust and gas—space weather. What we see indicates a high degree of order.”

These observations, made with NASA’s Spitzer Space Telescope, are detailed in the March 16 issue of the journal Nature.

Disk-driven shape

The DNA nebula is about 80 light-years long. It’s about 300 light-years from the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. The nebula is nearly perpendicular to the black hole, moving out of the galaxy at a quick clip—about 620 miles per second (1,000 kilometers per second)."





Double helix only commonly found in living organsims, so universe is a living organism then?

 

[wesmorris]

Well said wesmorris. Can I quote you?

So long as I recieve the royalty checks promptly.

Yeah of course you can.