American-Afghan War!!!

T

thecurly1

Registered Senior Member
Well I've figured out what this war will be called, against Afghanistan anyways. The other two wars were called the Anglo-Afghan and Soviet-Afghan wars.

Now that we have the name down, retalation will start soon. We need to figure out how to take down Afghanistan, Bin Laden, the Taliban, and other states. How can we do it all at once is what we really need anwsered.

I want to really hear from the war buffs on this one.
 
The slow, methodical destruction of the Taliban leadership/government and the religious extreme which has impoverished the Afghan peoples.

The importation and introduction and support for more liberal Muslim influences within the country. We will be percieved as invaders if we occupy the country. We really need the help of islam to win this one.

I see this as an exuse and an opportunity to fix what we helped create back in the '80's.
 
My Hungry Hawk view:
A few tactical neutron bombs well placed, (or a bio-agent) will eliminate a million people including several thousand Mullahs. No one here will miss those there. Not a good strategy, but makes me feel good by thinking about it. We are all made of Good and Evil. Can you tell my evil showing?

My moderate Hawk view:
Enlist the Talliban opposition and Pakistan, pay some money (sometimes money is called mullah for a reason) to the right people and have the extrimists eliminated. I do not care, who you are, money talks. We may have to send an elite team to make sure, they did not hide the terrorists.

My extreme moderate Hawk view: (30% Hawk, 70% Dove)
Same as above but with some added incentive. Work with every Moslem countries to discuss, what it is we need to do to keep our way of life, and they keep their way of life. In otherwords, live and let live. In the process we need to solve the palestine issue too with some financial incentive to keep their economy from going south. It is a grand plan that needs serious work in the implementation. It is a difficult road but is doable. Any half hearted work in this area will have negetive effect.
 
<i>"We may have to send an elite team to make sure, they did not hide the terrorists."</i>

Maybe they can bring us their heads on a stick or something.

Anyway, it won't be a short war, and many people are going to die. With that in mind, let's encourage thoughtful engagement. Anticipation is our friend at this time.
 
The extremists are well trained. I was watching a documentary from a few years ago. A Pakistani reporter was being toured around various training camps in Afghanistan. The guide pulled out an American Marine Corps training manual that had been translated (by the Americans for the Afghans!). Perhaps the lesson in all of this for the US is that foreign policy decisions have long term effects. Americans have always been reactionary, and not really involved in long-term strategic planning.

If there is any ground activity, there will be American casualties on a large scale. This isn't the Gulf War all over. The question is how many American lives are going to be lost avenging those already lost?

Muslims believe that dying while defending a homeland guarantees you a place in Paradise. There is no enemy more difficult to beat.
 
Definately the deaths will be high if we deploy a lot of ground troops.

I personally see a MASSIVE air campaign against foritifications, and cities, military instalations as well. This will be accomplished by long range bombers from the continental US, and Turkey. Special forces from the UK, Germany, Israel, US and other countries will be deployed to hunt Bin Laden down, and to pick off small resistance forces and cells.

I have a feeling that we're going to bomb Iraq, the US Navy is deploying carriers in the Persian Gulf. If you look at a map, the only direct flight path is right through Iranian air space, which isn't open. You'd have to fly around Iran, to the Arabian Sea, up through Pakistan, to Afghanistan just to bomb. I have a feeling we're going after Iraq. Three terrorists were captured in Detroit and Germany with links to Hussein.

If we go to Iraq, I think its safe to say there would be a huge air campaign against Iraq, a build up of tanks in Saudi Arabia or some other country and a small invasion for Baghdad.

Just pointing at some possible scenarios, keep the ideas coming guys.
 
I don't think an air campaign would work. Unlike Iraq, there is no coherent military in Afghanistan. The essence of the militants is to be as distributed as possible -- resistant to directed assuault. There are no large military installations and the militants are highly mobile.

I seem to recall that much of the Soviet effort in Afghanistan consisted of aerial assaults, and see how ineffectual those were.

Sure, the US could completely bomb Afghanistan to hell, but that would result in huge civilian losses -- something that the American public is, thankfully, strongly opposed to.

I don't think this is a situation the US can explicitly win. Every fighter they kill becomes a reason to hate the US even more.

I do think that the US is benefiting indirectly, however. The citizens of the US have taken a temporary reprieve from their general trend towards consumptive hedonism and depravity. Also, the world community is united in sympathy towards to the US and will probably grant the US wider liberties in world politics.
 
Agreed in part.

I am well aware that there is not coherient, centralized military in Afghanistan, it's largely a scattered group of gurrellia cells. The air strikes would destroy whatever few usefull bits of infrastructure were in the country.

More importantly the special forces could and will hunt down emplacements, bunkers, and individual cells. What they can't take down themselves, due to the toughness of the protection, or number of people can be delt with by air strikes.

The Afghan's still have Stinger SAMs from the Soviet-Afghan war. Then again radar visibility on even fighter planes is nothing compared to the large attack helicopters used by the Red Army. Plus countermeasures and altitude will make most one man SAMs impotent.

One question though: Why are we putting ships in the Gulf to fight Afghanistan, 1500 plus miles away? Look at a map, doesn't this seem out of place?

Thanks Porfiry.
 
Porfiry wrote
I do think that the US is benefiting indirectly, however. The citizens of the US have taken a temporary reprieve from their general trend towards consumptive hedonism and depravity. Also, the world community is united in sympathy towards to the US and will probably grant the US wider liberties in world politics.
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Taking a temporary reprieve from our hedonism is not a good thing. Our economy will go south and so will everybody else. Except of course the countries that do not have an economy like the Afghanis...


Perhaps the lesson in all of this for the US is that foreign policy decisions have long term effects. Americans have always been reactionary, and not really involved in long-term strategic planning.
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That is because, as I have mentioned it in this forum, we Americans are always shortsighted - from our politicians to business leaders, everything runs by the quarter. No body can see past their noses, cannt see the forest from the trees. Very little Systems Thinking.

As a consultant in System Dynamics, nine out of ten times I was asked what it is. They talk like they understand, but really do not.
 
There is no enemy more difficult to beat.
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When Richard Nixon was in office, he predicted that the East and the West would eventually clash. He also predicted that the East would win that clash, and that the West's focus needed to be prolonging that clash as long as possible.

I know it may sound crazy. But try not to dismiss the idea just because it was Richard Nixon that said it. He was basically a genius when it came to foreign diplomacy, most notably with the East.
 
!

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. ~ Gandhi

Rush Limbaugh has often said that being a liberal is the most gutless thing you can do, because all you have to do is say, "I care." I agree that that’s a pretty easy thing to do, but I submit that being a warmonger, especially at a time like this, is the most gutless thing you can do, because all you have to do is say, "Let’s bomb ‘em back into the Stone Age."
It’s easy to react with the mob. It’s harder to think as an individual.
It’s easy to be emotional. It’s harder to be rational.
It’s easy to fly an American flag when all of your neighbors are doing it. It’s harder to fly a peace flag when you’re the only one in your neighborhood doing it.
It’s easy to be nationalistic, what is referred to today as "patriotic." It’s harder to admit that your country has done and is doing some horrible things.
It’s easy to mourn the loss of innocent Americans. It’s harder to mourn the loss of innocent foreigners.
It’s easy to be spoon-fed answers by the media and the government. It’s harder to ask questions.
It’s easy to act before you think. It’s harder to exercise restraint.
It’s easy to call for vengeance. It’s harder to seek understanding.
It’s easy to sit in front of the lobotomy box listening to people like Wesley Clark and Newt Gingrich tell you what you should think and do. It’s harder to spend hours conducting your own research and arriving at your own conclusions.
It’s easy to attack innocent American Muslims and Arabs. It’s harder to defend people who don’t look like you, whose names are hard to pronounce, or who worship a different god than you do.
It’s easy to remain ignorant of history and current events. It’s harder to educate yourself and remain informed.
It’s easy to call for revenge. It’s harder to be concerned about what happens after that.
It’s easy to call for an eye for an eye. It’s harder to turn the other cheek.
It’s easy to perpetuate the cycle of violence. It’s harder to stop it.
It’s easy to call for U.S. servicemen to be put in harm’s way. It’s harder – much harder – to actually serve in the military and put your own life on the line.
It’s easy to call for the use of the military. It’s harder to acquire knowledge of what it does and what its limitations are.
It’s easy to pass a $40 billion emergency spending bill ("just a down payment"). It’s harder to keep campaign promises about a Social Security lockbox.
It’s easy to declare war. It’s harder to secure peace.
It’s easy to vote with 420 other people. It’s harder to be the lone dissenter.
It’s easy to call a suicide bomber "a coward." It’s harder to admit that you’re the coward for allowing the U.S. military to do your killing for you.
It’s easy to be led and manipulated by "leaders." It’s harder to lead yourself.
It’s easy to surrender your civil liberties for promises of greater security. It’s harder to defend your civil liberties when everyone else is saying you have to surrender them.
It’s easy to anonymously post messages on websites, accusing people of treason and advocating their imprisonment because you disagree with their opinion. It’s harder to use facts and logic to refute an argument.
It’s easy to send hate mail to writers you disagree with. It’s harder to stand up for your principles by writing a column that you know is going to be very unpopular.
It’s easy to call for the silencing of all dissent. It’s harder to defend a person’s right to free speech even when you disagree with what he has to say.
 
We are going to come through this okay. I don't think Afghan will be an issue of a concern much longer.
 
How about that

Hi all,

Bowser,

We are going to come through this okay. I don't think Afghan will be an issue of a concern much longer.
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Hey, how about this, we agree on something :). Unfortunately we don't on the reasons behind. This whole thing reminds me of David vs. Goliath (I guess you can figure out who's who yourself).

David won.

Think about it.

Bye!

Crisp
 
When Richard Nixon was in office, he predicted that the East and the West would eventually clash. He also predicted that the East would win that clash, and that the West's focus needed to be prolonging that clash as long as possible
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We have not clashed with the East yet. Wait for atleast 20 years. Then the real East will come knocking at our door because the West did something stupid.
 
Hi Malaclypse:

You are a Coward, Unpatriotic, Un-Christian person, Why?

We learn from media that

The Bible teaches revenge and not turn the other cheek
Telling the truth is Unpatriotic
To ask for peace is to be a Coward

Actually, I am very impressed. It is profound. Thank you.
 
Crisp,

<i>"This whole thing reminds me of David vs. Goliath (I guess you can figure out who's who yourself)."</i>

What was it David used to bring down the giant...a utility knife? Don't kid yourself.
 
From the BBC news website:


The man who will decide both the fate of Islamic militant Osama Bin Laden, and of Afghanistan, is a reclusive figure whose friendship with the world's most wanted man has already brought his country almost complete isolation.
The Taleban spiritual leader Mohammed Omar and Bin Laden go back a long way, and Mullah Omar has never shown any sign that he is prepared to abandon his fellow resistance fighter from the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan of 1979 to 1989.

He has vigorously defended his friend against allegations that he masterminded last week's devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, accusing the US of trying to cover up their own intelligence failures.

Bin Laden is believed to have at least partially financed the Taleban takeover of Afghanistan, from which Mullah Omar emerged as "commander of the faithful", a title with great resonance in Islamic history.

The ties go further. It is thought that Mullah Omar has taken Bin Laden's eldest daughter as a wife, and that Bin Laden may even have taken one of Mullah Omar's daughters as a fourth wife.

But the Taleban has always denied this.

Hermit

No Western journalist has ever met Mullah Omar, who leaves virtually all contact with the outside world to his foreign minister, Wakil Ahmad Mutawakkil.

To many ordinary Afghans he is just a name, but those who have seen him say he is relatively young - in his early forties - and tall, with a black beard and a black turban.

His right eye was damaged by shrapnel when he was fighting Afghanistan's Soviet occupiers in the 1980s.



Taleban Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakkil is Mullah Omar's mouthpiece

He rarely leaves the southern city of Kandahar where he lives in a large house that was reportedly built for him by Bin Laden, although he may be present in Kabul for a meeting of 1,000 senior Afghan Islamic clerics on Wednesday to discuss his friend's fate.

It is thought that the two speak daily by satellite telephone, and some reports suggest that they also meet for fishing trips.

Invisible fist

Under Mullah Omar's rule, a strict interpretation of Islamic law has been imposed on the 90% of Afghanistan which is ruled by the Taleban.

Women are strongly discouraged from leaving their homes, denied schooling and jobs and forced to fully cover themselves.

Women found guilty of adultery are stoned to death, homosexuals crushed under brick walls, thieves' hands are amputated and murderers publicly executed by victims' families.

Recent edicts from Mullah Omar have included the death sentence for anyone converting to another religion, as well as the infamous orders to destroy the country's ancient Buddha statues.

When the Taleban first arrived in Kabul in the mid-1990s, many ordinary Afghans welcomed them and Omar as heralding an end to the chaos caused by warring factions within the government.

Now a new chaos is unfurling.

A few months ago Mullah Omar told Pakistani journalist Rahimullah Yousifzei, the first journalist to interview him, that in his lifetime half of Afghanistan had already been destroyed.

He was ready to see the other half destroyed rather than give up Osama Bin Laden, he said.

It appears that this claim is now being put to the test.
 
Hi Bowser,

Bin Laden has been shopping for a nuclear weapon. He's also been experimenting with chemical warfare, and it is believed that he has been testing a device.
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Undoubtfully the man has in some way access to nuclear or biochemical devices, he's got the money and the will. And he's close to Russia, where you can walk in and pick up a nuke anytime. ((Irony mode on)) And I am convinced that an attack on Bin Laden's person will convince him not to use these devices against any possible aggressor ((irony mode off)).

PS: Bowser, I'm not on some personal crusade against you (with me always replying to your posts). It just happens that you make the most explicit comments (meant in a positive way) that simply drive me to reply :).

Bye!

Crisp
 
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