afterlife conclusion.

[Kubex]

i have made up my mind and come to a conclusion. i am going to believe in an afterlife and have faith in it from now on, simply for the fact of playing it safe,

because i think it is a real possibility that our minds are more powerful than we understand so far, and i thought, well what if when you die whatever you think your fate and reality will be might actualy come true,

so if i think i will just die and enter into an eternal unconscious void of nothingness, that might come true simply because i believe it.

and if i think i will enter into another existence or what we call an afterlife, that might come true simply because thats what my mind truly has faith in,

maybe your own faith decides your destiny, and i figured well if i believe in an afterlife it may pay off in the end. and whats the harm in believing such a thign anyway, it will make me happier aswell,


so i have nothing to lose,


peace.

I agree with you when you say "what's the harm?" But have to disagree with you when you say "so I have nothing to lose".

So far as I know, the mind only has influence over matter. A scientist claims to have proof of this, see adhikara. com.

This is not to exclude the validity of belief or faith in the realm of the spiritual (the non-physical, not neccessarily religious). Not all faith is religious and not all religion is faith. They are correlative only because we think them to be so. They are not bound each other. Very little is actually free because of how we perceive it.

I think that your thought is certainly well thought out, in that you have incorporated into it the "What if?" question. (This pertains to the imbalance of correlative thought versus non-correlative thought.) You made a statement, and spoke it with convincing authority. It may or may not be true, but it had salt, rather than an argument, which usually only stands erect long enough to arrive at a flacid end.

However, I posit that you cease to ask "what if?" the moment you believe that you "have nothing to lose." Your thesis is a self-negating conclusion if "playing it safe" equals "nothing to lose." It's a common theme to play it safe so as to not lose anything. Even though it is logical, it isn't neccessarily sound. Unfortunately, that is the only pattern on which we have to base our experiences, hence our acceptance of it.

It's very much like the statement that if you know the truth, it will "set you free" when in fact "truth" never set anybody free. It may set you free from a very limited number of things. However, that doesn't mean the statement holds no water. The truth can certainly "*make* you free", which happens to be the original quote. The "make" requires no "set" because it relates to a state of being and not a standing and therefore inherent regardless of context.
It's all how you percieve an entity or thought, or in this case, it's all how it's worded. And yet I don't claim to hold a comprehensive view of either of the quotes, because I consider that they are not bound to just one meaning. However, the original quote is very sound in it's application. End of example.

Also there is a very neccessary gravity to your conclusion, in that you have reached a point where you have decided not to just simply believe something, but to choose to believe it as well. The application of thought is reflected in mankinds illustrious history, both noble and ignoble.

My question is do you have nothing to lose because you have reached a popular and positive conclusion that you are satisfied with because it makes you "happy" that you have nothing to lose? Are you therefore free from the rigors and inconveniences of further contemplation? Or were you attempting to portray an epiphany known only to you that was not willing to be cheapened by written word? It happens to all of us.

I do believe that there is validity to the mind affecting the outcome of one's afterlife, but the actual context of that outcome I do not believe the mind has the ability to set. It's like a state versus standing sort of thing.

End of thoughts.

 

[Xelios]

i have made up my mind and come to a conclusion....

I understand where you're coming from, but for me, this fascination with cheating death and living forever... I just don't see the point. I'm happy with the idea that I'm here now, I'll be here for a few decades to come, then I'll be gone. I won't be in some dark place for the rest of eternity, or stuck between existances, or come back as a tree or something, I'll just drift out of life and cease to exist.

To me that's far more comforting than an afterlife. No pressure, no worry, no big unknown, just an end. I dunno, most religious people feel pity when people share this view of life with them. That nothing really has a point, that there's nothing waiting at the end, that nothing you've experienced will matter when you've died, but it's oddly comforting in a way. And it compells me to make the most out of my time here, even if it won't matter in the end. I'm here now, not in the future or the past, right here. Might as well make the best of each moment, because the present moment is the only thing that's truely real.

In other news I'm tired and running on caffeine to get some work done, so that may have made no sense at all

 

[lightgigantic]

i have made up my mind and come to a conclusion. i am going to believe in an afterlife and have faith in it from now on, simply for the fact of playing it safe,

because i think it is a real possibility that our minds are more powerful than we understand so far, and i thought, well what if when you die whatever you think your fate and reality will be might actualy come true,

so if i think i will just die and enter into an eternal unconscious void of nothingness, that might come true simply because i believe it.

and if i think i will enter into another existence or what we call an afterlife, that might come true simply because thats what my mind truly has faith in,

maybe your own faith decides your destiny, and i figured well if i believe in an afterlife it may pay off in the end. and whats the harm in believing such a thign anyway, it will make me happier aswell,


so i have nothing to lose,


peace.

there is the statement
BG 8.6: Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kuntī, that state he will attain without fail.

the implications are however that one's thoughts at the time of death are shaped by ones thoughts, acts and deeds in this life - hence its not so much a question about deciding what one will think of at the time of death but a question of how to act so that one can compose one's thoughts within the parameters of sanity at the time of death

 

[heliocentric]

You know i constantly graple with this one..
Either death is the final abstration in which you exist in a sort of soup of symbols and archetypes, or its the eternal moment of clairty.

It could of course be nothingness, but that really wouldnt stop me 'being' or experiencing as someone/something else in the future.
And since the gap between present and future would be a complete void, from my perspective i would simpy die and re-experience myself as something 'other' almost instantly.

 

[nietzschefan]

I have one last thing to say on this and was reluctant to post because it is so hokey.

Someone once told me their version of heaven was you get to read everybody's "book". You get to know all about them, not just what they did, which could cause judgement, you get to know everything, every pain every detail of minutia. I liked that(version of positive heaven) so much, that I merged it with other modes of thinking. Perhaps when you die, you actually just finished "reading" someone's "book". On to the next book. Your own "true book" being the one which fullfills you utterly(perhaps each of us can get to lead an "enlightened" life. This goes along with the theory - we are all one, Karma, the eternal recurrance. This goes along quite nicely with my favorite paragraphs of Nietzsche:

"eternal hourglass turned end over end and YOU with it - a speck of dust".

Anyways that kind of "heaven" of "eternity", would make sense to me. I am also well prepared for "nothing".

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

A noble and futile effort. As you well know, there is always someone or something more powerful.

If that was true, you have given the omnicent universe a lot of ammo to play with you like a toy.

Fear nothing, fear no possiblity of death and you will truly get what you want.

i am cautious and careful not scared. i fear nothing in this world,

peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I get the feeling that you choose to believe in this line of reasoning because you feel that if your brain creates your postmortem existence, you will live in an eternal state of reality based on your thoughts in this life.

Forgiving the assumptions and getting to your theory, what kind of universe do you expect to live in once you die? What will your reality be?



I hope it's not a universe that intends to make a fool of you forever.

the dragonball z universe, where i can train forever and constantly improve my fighting skills, and also fight worthy foes for ever and ever,


peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I agree with you when you say "what's the harm?" But have to disagree with you when you say "so I have nothing to lose".

So far as I know, the mind only has influence over matter. A scientist claims to have proof of this, see adhikara. com.

This is not to exclude the validity of belief or faith in the realm of the spiritual (the non-physical, not neccessarily religious). Not all faith is religious and not all religion is faith. They are correlative only because we think them to be so. They are not bound each other. Very little is actually free because of how we perceive it.

I think that your thought is certainly well thought out, in that you have incorporated into it the "What if?" question. (This pertains to the imbalance of correlative thought versus non-correlative thought.) You made a statement, and spoke it with convincing authority. It may or may not be true, but it had salt, rather than an argument, which usually only stands erect long enough to arrive at a flacid end.

However, I posit that you cease to ask "what if?" the moment you believe that you "have nothing to lose." Your thesis is a self-negating conclusion if "playing it safe" equals "nothing to lose." It's a common theme to play it safe so as to not lose anything. Even though it is logical, it isn't neccessarily sound. Unfortunately, that is the only pattern on which we have to base our experiences, hence our acceptance of it.

It's very much like the statement that if you know the truth, it will "set you free" when in fact "truth" never set anybody free. It may set you free from a very limited number of things. However, that doesn't mean the statement holds no water. The truth can certainly "*make* you free", which happens to be the original quote. The "make" requires no "set" because it relates to a state of being and not a standing and therefore inherent regardless of context.
It's all how you percieve an entity or thought, or in this case, it's all how it's worded. And yet I don't claim to hold a comprehensive view of either of the quotes, because I consider that they are not bound to just one meaning. However, the original quote is very sound in it's application. End of example.

Also there is a very neccessary gravity to your conclusion, in that you have reached a point where you have decided not to just simply believe something, but to choose to believe it as well. The application of thought is reflected in mankinds illustrious history, both noble and ignoble.

My question is do you have nothing to lose because you have reached a popular and positive conclusion that you are satisfied with because it makes you "happy" that you have nothing to lose? Are you therefore free from the rigors and inconveniences of further contemplation? Or were you attempting to portray an epiphany known only to you that was not willing to be cheapened by written word? It happens to all of us.

I do believe that there is validity to the mind affecting the outcome of one's afterlife, but the actual context of that outcome I do not believe the mind has the ability to set. It's like a state versus standing sort of thing.

End of thoughts.

hmm, i guess i see that i have nothing to lose with this belief simply because i cant see a downside to it. i dont know exactly why but i got a very strong feeling that conscious minds were the key to the spiritual world,


i just think its best for me to trust in something after death. i dont feel any more happier than before, i actualy feel the same as i always did, but maybe its because i always stayed neutral to spiritual events, i never thought one way or the other about an afterlife, i always thought anything was possible,

i still do think anything is possible, but i have a strange feeling that our minds when dying shape the existence of our next life, and i also dont see it as a next life its the same one, just transformed and changed, like all energy in this universe it changes into new forms,


i saw consciousness turning into light and bieng set free, it was not reality it was inside my mind, but i realised illusions and what is in my mind exist too, yes not in this physical world for us to interact with, but it exists inside my mind,


i cant answer many questions because i dont know what is true, but i do know what is possible,



peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I understand where you're coming from, but for me, this fascination with cheating death and living forever... I just don't see the point. I'm happy with the idea that I'm here now, I'll be here for a few decades to come, then I'll be gone. I won't be in some dark place for the rest of eternity, or stuck between existances, or come back as a tree or something, I'll just drift out of life and cease to exist.

To me that's far more comforting than an afterlife. No pressure, no worry, no big unknown, just an end. I dunno, most religious people feel pity when people share this view of life with them. That nothing really has a point, that there's nothing waiting at the end, that nothing you've experienced will matter when you've died, but it's oddly comforting in a way. And it compells me to make the most out of my time here, even if it won't matter in the end. I'm here now, not in the future or the past, right here. Might as well make the best of each moment, because the present moment is the only thing that's truely real.

In other news I'm tired and running on caffeine to get some work done, so that may have made no sense at all

it made sense. you might be making that real for yourself, but as thats what you desire then it is good. but i personaly dont see pressure in an afterlife. i see more chances to experience the wonders of existing and bieng conscious.

if you cherish life so much right now then surely you like bieng conscious and alive, so why wouldent you like the afterlife, who knows it might be more of a mystery and challenge than this life.


peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

there is the statement
BG 8.6: Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kuntī, that state he will attain without fail.

the implications are however that one's thoughts at the time of death are shaped by ones thoughts, acts and deeds in this life - hence its not so much a question about deciding what one will think of at the time of death but a question of how to act so that one can compose one's thoughts within the parameters of sanity at the time of death

what is this?


peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

You know i constantly graple with this one..
Either death is the final abstration in which you exist in a sort of soup of symbols and archetypes, or its the eternal moment of clairty.

It could of course be nothingness, but that really wouldnt stop me 'being' or experiencing as someone/something else in the future.
And since the gap between present and future would be a complete void, from my perspective i would simpy die and re-experience myself as something 'other' almost instantly.

i dont understand the last part, about re-experiencing yourself as soemthing other instantly.


explain?


peace.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Cool thread. I used to believe in heaven, since that´s what my parents thought me. The theory of afterlife I most concur with would be Karmic cyclic existence.
As long as you have karma, you will reincarnate into another body learning from the experiences of past lives.
This has always been intriguing to me.
For example, a person can be raised as a Catholic and stay Catholic their whole life, because that is how they were raised.
On the other side, I was raised as a Catholic, but I chose not to believe and go against my whole family when I was 12 years old. How did that happened?
I don´t know, nobody told me not to be a catholic, everybody was happy with me being a catholic, but I "felt" that it just wasn´t right. I had a different perspective on life and death than catholics, and found the idea of limiting myself to 1 belief is just being closed to possibilities. You can call it common sense, Catholics think only they go to heaven, or only those who believen in Christ go to heaven, and maybe common sense made me realize that was not real, since I knew a lot of catholics, and just for believing in something, you cannot justify your actions.

On the other side, Karma makes sense, every religion teaches that God is the only fair judge. And what better way of making someone to pay for what they have done than Karma?
I believe in past lives, because many people are able to see their past lifes. Oshos used to say you are born sometimes a man, and sometimes a woman!!! And there is evidence of people talking in tongues, or talking about past lifes experiences during hypnosis.

And this "learned experience" from past lifes, is what we call intuition, just "something tells you" what is real or not. I have thought about why didn´t I remain a catholic like most catholics do, and I think it was a learned experience from past lives. "Something told me" that having a belief, and that makes you superior to others is not correct.

What do you guys think of intuition, intelligence and instinct? Those are all intrisic properties of our being, we are born with that stuff, nobody had to teach us that, it is inside us.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

So from a karmic perspective, as long as you haven´t payed what you have done in past lifes, you will continue to reincarnate.
For example, when Jesus took conscience, he knew he had to pay for his karma, that´s why he voluntarily went to crucifiction, he knew it was his destiny, to close his karmic cycle.
People like Jesus, Gautama, Mahavira, Krishna, etc. in my belief, are people who took conscience and let their karma act for them. In order to be free from karma, and not be born again; unless you do it voluntarily, but this time, without karma, without nothing to pay for, with full consciousness of your past lives... This is how I see it... Just wanted to share my perspective.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

I have one last thing to say on this and was reluctant to post because it is so hokey.

Someone once told me their version of heaven was you get to read everybody's "book". You get to know all about them, not just what they did, which could cause judgement, you get to know everything, every pain every detail of minutia. I liked that(version of positive heaven) so much, that I merged it with other modes of thinking. Perhaps when you die, you actually just finished "reading" someone's "book". On to the next book. Your own "true book" being the one which fullfills you utterly(perhaps each of us can get to lead an "enlightened" life. This goes along with the theory - we are all one, Karma, the eternal recurrance. This goes along quite nicely with my favorite paragraphs of Nietzsche:

"eternal hourglass turned end over end and YOU with it - a speck of dust".

Anyways that kind of "heaven" of "eternity", would make sense to me. I am also well prepared for "nothing".

i have thought about this before many times, that we get to view other peoples life, and also our own to reflect on things, and that we also get to see and hear every thought and emotion of that person throughout life.

but i never thought of it like that before.. with our lives actualy being a book we are going through and when we finish it we die, thats a weird thought and idea i interested me alot lol.


i also thought to myself that when we die we stand before everyone while they all stand back with you and watch your life, like a huge clip show of all your worst thoughts and bad moments. and all of your impure actions/thoughts get exposed for all to see, just so the universe can humiliate you before you experience true joy, and its everyones initiation into the eternal here-after.

obviously its not true (i hope not anyway) but its just a funny thought i have sometimes.

peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

So from a karmic perspective, as long as you haven´t payed what you have done in past lifes, you will continue to reincarnate.
For example, when Jesus took conscience, he knew he had to pay for his karma, that´s why he voluntarily went to crucifiction, he knew it was his destiny, to close his karmic cycle.
People like Jesus, Gautama, Mahavira, Krishna, etc. in my belief, are people who took conscience and let their karma act for them. In order to be free from karma, and not be born again; unless you do it voluntarily, but this time, without karma, without nothing to pay for, with full consciousness of your past lives... This is how I see it... Just wanted to share my perspective.

kind of sounds like a buddhist viewpoint, maybe karma effects this life and the afterlife, because if karma effects just one or the other it would fail to teach you anything, but if karma effected both it would prove usefull.


because if karma just effected this life and then stopped when you die, then you would not have carried over your debts and blessings to the next carnation,

and if karma just effected the next life you would be unchecked throughout your actual existence as any being or form, so you would not gain full understanding of it,


now if it effected both this life you lead and the one your about to step into, then it would make more sense, ofcourse its just an idea but i think its more logical if i can use that word? maybe it was a bad word to use but nevermind i have said it now and wont delete it.


peace.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

kind of sounds like a buddhist viewpoint, maybe karma effects this life and the afterlife, because if karma effects just one or the other it would fail to teach you anything, but if karma effected both it would prove usefull.

because if karma just effected this life and then stopped when you die, then you would not have carried over your debts and blessings to the next carnation,

and if karma just effected the next life you would be unchecked throughout your actual existence as any being or form, so you would not gain full understanding of it,

now if it effected both this life you lead and the one your about to step into, then it would make more sense, ofcourse its just an idea but i think its more logical if i can use that word? maybe it was a bad word to use but nevermind i have said it now and wont delete it.

peace.

Is not only a Buddhist belief, is Oriental in general. And according to them, as you said, Karma is accumulative thought your whole existence, your soul will be born again and again, until you fulfill your karma, until you pay for every bad thing you have done, and got all the blessings you have accumulated.

For example, when Jesus was crying in the Getsemaie garden, because he knew he was going to get arrested and crucified. He could have run away. Why didn´t Jesus ran away, and got to live a solitary beautiful life? He knew what was comming, and took it like a man.
If Jesus would have avoided the crucifiction, he would have had to pay for his karma in many other reincarnations, we wouldn´t have be freed from karma from past lives. He concentrated all his bad karma into 1 and only crucial event. And he didn´t make it happen, he just let it happen, like a witness.

According to karma, if you manage to pay for all your karma in 1 life, like Jesus did. You are able to reincarnate 1 last time, and you choose the timing. But that last time, you are born with conscience on who you are, and what you have experienced in all your past lives. This would explain why Jesus himself said he will comeback 1 more time at the end of times, Buddha said the same, the Count of Saint Germain allegedly said the same thing after his last reincarnation. "I will come back 1 more time". How do they know this so clearly? Because when you pay for your "karmic debt", you will have 1 more reincarnation, but this time, as a man with conscience from birth.

I can only image how that child would be like, teaching spiritual stuff to his mother while being breastfed. That was a little hyperbole, but you get my point.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

yeah, what belief do you actualy hold as a person? do you have any fixed ideals?

peace.

 

[KennyJC]

i have made up my mind and come to a conclusion. i am going to believe in an afterlife and have faith in it from now on, simply for the fact of playing it safe,

because i think it is a real possibility that our minds are more powerful than we understand so far, and i thought, well what if when you die whatever you think your fate and reality will be might actualy come true,

Why does belief play an important part of it? What makes you think that the simple addition of belief is more important than wanting? And what if it is something so rediculous, that no intelligent person can sincerely believe it? Why would god design a system in which only the stupid would prosper as they would find it easier to believe nonsense?

so if i think i will just die and enter into an eternal unconscious void of nothingness, that might come true simply because i believe it.

Conversely, what if we are under a test to be rational and skeptical and ironically it is the theists who fail? And what if the rational and skeptical are rewarded with an afterlife? Both are obviously untrue anyway, but I can just as easily say that skepticism will reward me with my place in heaven just as easily as you can say belief will reward you with your place.

and if i think i will enter into another existence or what we call an afterlife, that might come true simply because thats what my mind truly has faith in

Well it sounds as though you are trying to second guess 'god' or whatever it is will reward you. I mean, it seems that instead of simply being yourself, you are trying to do some mental aerobatics to get what you want. It seems sly, something which god would surely not approve of?

maybe your own faith decides your destiny, and i figured well if i believe in an afterlife it may pay off in the end. and whats the harm in believing such a thign anyway, it will make me happier aswell,

And what about me? I may want there to be an afterlife, but I can not seriously believe it. So I am fucked? That's not fair.

Oh, and a question if I may... How bad was life before you were born? It really wasn't that bad was it? So why do you fear nothingness so much?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

yeah, what belief do you actualy hold as a person? do you have any fixed ideals?

peace.

I believe we have only to witness our Karma, not interfere. There is nothing we can do about it.
My main goal right now is to know myself, to get to know my own ego, and try to understand it.

People spend their whole life trying to achieve the hapiness of childhood. And yet they don´t know it, they think is money that will make them feel better. If not money, any ideal they have set for themselves.

I believe the main obstacle to achieve this happiness is our ego. The ego that we have created unconsciously in order to "fit" into society. But by creating an ego, you are no longer an individual, you are nothing but another society-manipulated person, one sheep of the heard.

Our parents didn´t know this, so they tought us how to behave to their standards, and by doing that, they are suppresing our inner-self, our individuality, as nature intended.

I seriously believe that when we manage to get rid of our ego, we achieve a state of awareness that let you know your individuality, to know your inner-spirit is to know God.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Why does belief play an important part of it? What makes you think that the simple addition of belief is more important than wanting? And what if it is something so rediculous, that no intelligent person can sincerely believe it? Why would god design a system in which only the stupid would prosper as they would find it easier to believe nonsense?



Conversely, what if we are under a test to be rational and skeptical and ironically it is the theists who fail? And what if the rational and skeptical are rewarded with an afterlife? Both are obviously untrue anyway, but I can just as easily say that skepticism will reward me with my place in heaven just as easily as you can say belief will reward you with your place.



Well it sounds as though you are trying to second guess 'god' or whatever it is will reward you. I mean, it seems that instead of simply being yourself, you are trying to do some mental aerobatics to get what you want. It seems sly, something which god would surely not approve of?



And what about me? I may want there to be an afterlife, but I can not seriously believe it. So I am fucked? That's not fair.

Oh, and a question if I may... How bad was life before you were born? It really wasn't that bad was it? So why do you fear nothingness so much?

who said anything about god? and i do want an afterlife so i guess if thats true it will work against me also, i have concluded that the mind is very powerful and may effect my death afterwards. desire, fear and belief all come into play, i fear nothing, i desire an afterlife so i can train forever, and i believe that i will get it.


and yes i am the same person why am i not a skeptic of things? just because believe in an afterlife it doesent mean i trust everything now. and im not a theist, and if i wanted to include god in this thread i would have said the word god but i didnt,

maybe you want to include got for some reason, my mind is made up and has not swayed reading your post,

lol and what do you mean "what about me" who said anything in this universe was fair? if you dont get an afterlife because you didnt have faith in one and believe in it, then its not anybodies fault. what has fairness and god got to do with anything?

i do not fear nothingness, i just dont like it, not liking something and fearing it are different you know. i dont fear being punched in the face but i dont like it either.

peace.