Accepting the reality of God is painful to many:

[Lawdog]

Atheists, Agnostics, and others, either consciously or subconsciously, have habituated themselves to thinking of God as some sort of adversary, and to his followers in Christ as enemies. As an atheist, try to catch yourself doing this and you will see that its true.

But nothing about God could be further from the truth.

God loves Atheists and Agnostics so much that many Christians, if they discovered how much, would be scandalized by it!

The true reason that they will not acknowledge God is far from 'intellectual freedom." To acknowledge the existance of God they must say that they were wrong. Pride of their life prevents them from this admission.

Therefore we must beg them to seek true humility.

many have adopted a sinful lifestyle which they refuse to change or in any way alter. They wrongly think that God wants them to change every little imperfection all at once. This is not the case. God wants them to change gradually, little by little, until they are ready to give themselves full to God.

Even those believers who call themselves "saved" as if their relationship to God were based on some sort of contractual moment, and who think that they were saved because they went up to "the altar call," ....are not saved, but they must continue to work towards salvation.

God does not look with more favor upon believers than unbelievers, but he doles out good things to both, hoping that the believer will improve himself and expecting much from him, and hoping that the unbeliever will repent of his unbelief and begin to live in Christ.

 

[Lawdog]

Please dont bother leave something like "That's really stupid Lawdog, cus God dont exist anyway, so its just not even logical...prove it"

Mathematic axioms are not visible, yet they exist and are self evident, non demonstratable. Evidence of mathematic reality is all around us.

 

[spidergoat]

Not true, I just think your understanding of the concept is tied up in so much cultural baggage that it becomes repugnant to take seriously. I'm an atheist, but I think the way Jesus talked about God as represented in the Gnostic Gospels, and spottily in the bible was rather beautiful and profound, but it has little resemblence to Christianity.

You seem to think of God as a person, from the Greek word for mask. I think if Christians opened their minds to what is behind their elaborate intellectual creation, they would find something impossible to fit into their present culture. God is beyond existence or non-existence, and it doesn't make a whit of difference if we "accept" it or not. There is no way to know what it is that we are accepting.

 

[Oli]

Listening to theists is painful to many:

Atheists, Agnostics, and others, either consciously or subconsciously, have habituated themselves to thinking of God as some sort of adversary, and to his followers in Christ as enemies. As an atheist, try to catch yourself doing this and you will see that its true.

Nope, most of the time we don't even consider "god". Therefore "enmity" is not an issue.

But nothing about God could be further from the truth.

Is there anything about god that IS the truth?

God loves Atheists and Agnostics so much that many Christians, if they discovered how much, would be scandalized by it!

How satisfying is the love of a non-entity supposed to be to us?

The true reason that they will not acknowledge God is far from 'intellectual freedom." To acknowledge the existance of God they must say that they were wrong. Pride of their life prevents them from this admission.

If you're right how did we get the conclusion in the first place? I have pride so I'm going to be an atheist. Now I'm an atheist my pride prevents me recanting? Atheists make mistakes and in general they're no more reluctant to admit them than anyone else.

Therefore we must beg them to seek true humility.

From whom?

many have adopted a sinful lifestyle which they refuse to change or in any way alter.

Evidence? Figures?

They wrongly think that God wants them to change every little imperfection all at once. This is not the case. God wants them to change gradually, little by little, until they are ready to give themselves full to God.

We don't think god wants anything since we don't actually believe he exists.

Mathematical axioms are taken as "given" and remain self-consistent for that structure of mathematics. Construct (or assume) a different set of axioms and you need a different form of mathematics. These structures are internally self-consistent and do not hold true across different types of maths. But they all "true". So does that mean that if we assume a different sort of god and construct a self-consistent structure for it then that god would also be true? How would YOU go about accepting that god?

 

[imaplanck.]

'Accepting the reality of God is painful to many'
How can you Accept something as reality that has no measurable presence in reality? Thats whats painful for me.

 

[Lawdog]

Not true, I just think your understanding of the concept is tied up in so much cultural baggage that it becomes repugnant to take seriously. I'm an atheist, but I think the way Jesus talked about God as represented in the Gnostic Gospels, and spottily in the bible was rather beautiful and profound, but it has little resemblence to Christianity.

Why do you choose the gnostic gospels over against what your forefathers have handed down to you as Truth in the canonized scriptures, intentionally rejecting gnosticism?

You seem to think of God as a person, from the Greek word for mask.

very good, I also read ancient greek.

I think if Christians opened their minds to what is behind their elaborate intellectual creation, they would find something impossible to fit into their present culture.

OUR PRESENT CULTURE?????????????? what planet are you on? This is not christian culture. Christiandom died out with the French Revolution!!!!!!!!!

God is beyond existence or non-existence, and it doesn't make a whit of difference if we "accept" it or not. There is no way to know what it is that we are accepting.

That would make the discussion nullified.

 

[Lawdog]

'Accepting the reality of God is painful to many'
How can you Accept something as reality that has no measurable presence in reality? Thats whats painful for me.

you are partially correct: God's love is not measurable, but its prescence is real.

 

[spidergoat]

Why do you choose the gnostic gospels over against what your forefathers have handed down to you as Truth in the canonized scriptures, intentionally rejecting gnosticism?

Our forefathers were human, and as flawed as us. I believe their choices were influenced not just by spiritual, but political motives. They, specifically the Roman Orthodoxy, hunted the Gnostics and their gospels unfairly. If we really wish to be true to our forefathers, we would consider all the texts of early Christianity, not just the ones accepted by a kind of mafioso of politicians and priests.

very good, I also read ancient greek.

I don't.

OUR PRESENT CULTURE?????????????? what planet are you on? This is not christian culture. Christiandom died out with the French Revolution!!!!!!!!!

I'm not talking about western culture in general, but Christian culture as it has been for the last thousand years or so. I mean the orthodoxy of the canonical bible, the various prejudices and structure of churches, the common interpretations of the bible, ect, it hasn't changed all that much. Jesus would not have recognized it.

That would make the discussion nullified.

Exactly, and we can move on to more interesting topics.

 

[Lawdog]

The Church fathers rejected gnosticism for a reason. They looked at all the texts including the gnostic, which basically were like the Sun or the Inquirer, fairy tales about Jesus, and decided that it was not true.

There are many problems with gnosticism, things that are serious errors and heresy. It makes good co-eternal with evil.

St. Augustine's Confessions, a book where the great saint talks about his time in the Manichee cult, which was basically gnostic, is a very interesting source.

Also, keep in mind, the later gnostics, like the cathars and others, had beliefs that are repugnant to humanity, such as forbidding marriage etc.

 

[imaplanck.]

you are partially correct: God's love is not measurable, but its prescence is real.

I pitty your loveful life, in your darkest moments having everything to cling to, Im glad im not so warm. In my last moments I will take comfort in the belief that I will die alone, can you say the same?

 

[Lawdog]

You will not die alone, if you do not forsake your present path.
The demon will be there to take you to a place that will shock you to no end.

 

[Fathoms]

Any God that sanctions the existence of hell is patently evil anyway. Even if I were inclined to believe in the Christian God, I would reject him on the grounds that he coercive, evil, and not worthy of trust.

 

[Lawdog]

Which is evil: to let those like Stalin/Hitler and others to go unpunished, or to allow them to suffer punishment in Hell?

 

[Oli]

If you're an all-powerful god which is more evil - giving men free will in the absolute knowledge of what they could do with, or creating men without the capacity for evil?

 

[spidergoat]

The Church fathers rejected gnosticism for a reason. They looked at all the texts including the gnostic, which basically were like the Sun or the Inquirer, fairy tales about Jesus, and decided that it was not true.

I think differently. They rejected Gnosticism because it robbed the church of sole authority to interpret the teaching of Jesus. It was a more democratic movement, more individualistic. Among the variety of views expressed within Gnosticism, one was that the resurrection was not literal, but was available to everyone as a vision, which is what Mary experienced. The orthodoxy didn't like the fact that Gnostic values were not patriarchal. The orthodoxy determined what was heresy for themselves. Frankly, I'll be the judge of that. I don't trust some bishop to figure that out any more than the Pope.

Also, keep in mind, the later gnostics, like the cathars and others, had beliefs that are repugnant to humanity, such as forbidding marriage etc.

Present day Christians forbid certain kinds of marriage, too, a fact which I find repugnant. Better to forbid it all. This is only a cultural value, after all, I doubt that God cares one way or the other.

 

[Lawdog]

I think differently. They rejected Gnosticism because it robbed the church of sole authority to interpret the teaching of Jesus.

Yes, thats true, they wanted christianity done their way, so did the gnostics. the Church won.

It was a more democratic movement, more individualistic. Among the variety of views expressed within Gnosticism, one was that the resurrection was not literal, but was available to everyone as a vision, which is what Mary experienced.

gnosticism was not democratic, thats a modern fallacy. the "elite" ruled over those whose knowledge was less. Sort of like L Ron Hubbard.

The orthodoxy didn't like the fact that Gnostic values were not patriarchal.

I think patriarchy is better myself, but even so, the Church is not solely patriarch, but responsibility is shared. After all, we call her "mother Church"

The orthodoxy determined what was heresy for themselves. Frankly, I'll be the judge of that. I don't trust some bishop to figure that out any more than the Pope.

but now you set yourself up as the sole arbitor of truth. The way I look at it, the fathers of the Church were greater men than me and had great intellects and saintly lives, so why not let them decide for me what to think. i feel sorry for those who go around constantly with the burden that they have to figure out how reality works.

Present day Christians forbid certain kinds of marriage, too, a fact which I find repugnant. Better to forbid it all. This is only a cultural value, after all, I doubt that God cares one way or the other.

Jesus himself spoke of marriage often.
Which christians are you speaking of?

 

[Fathoms]

Which is evil: to let those like Stalin/Hitler and others to go unpunished, or to allow them to suffer punishment in Hell?

Hell isn't an institution of punishment. It is a sadistic dystopia of unending torment and depravity that could only be concieved of by a very sick, horrible deity. If God considers the autonomy of evil people here on earth more important than the saftey and well being of his more well adjusted children, than he should be the one held accountable for setting these vultures loose on us. Why not spare us the evil acts they commit, and spare them the unimaginable torture of eternity and hell, and just pluck them out of existence or at the very least, alter them so that they no longer have such ghastly proclivities? That would be the only humane thing for a loving God to do. But instead, God considers the evil appetites of murderers and rapists indespensible to his creation of earth.

 

[the preacher]

Atheists, Agnostics, and others, either consciously or subconsciously, have habituated themselves to thinking of God as some sort of adversary,

atheist have a lack/no of belief in gods/god, so as they have no belief, how can they think this god/nothing! is an adversary, thats just plain stupid, but then again what do you expect from a theist mouth.

and to his followers in Christ as enemies.

no atheist thinks of a xian as the enemy, thats left upto another religion, an atheist has nothing put pity for the xian or any religion, atheist are only worried that the religious, not just xians, do not destory the world.

But nothing about God could be further from the truth.

nothing about gods/god is the truth.

God loves Atheists and Agnostics so much that many Christians, if they discovered how much, would be scandalized by it!

and how would they discover that god/nothing! loved them, what complete drivel

The true reason that they will not acknowledge God is far from 'intellectual freedom." To acknowledge the existance of God they must say that they were wrong.

if it can produce one microbe, of it's self, there wont be an atheist who wont admit hes wrong.

Pride of their life prevents them from this admission.

it's got nothing to do with pride, just plain and simply evidence!.

Therefore we must beg them to seek true humility.
many have adopted a sinful lifestyle which they refuse to change or in any way alter.

what sinful life style, do they kill people like the religious, do they force their beliefs on others, etc....

They wrongly think that God wants them to change every little imperfection all at once. This is not the case. God wants them to change gradually, little by little, until they are ready to give themselves full to God.

atheist have a lack/no belief in gods/god, they dont think about god at all. it's really that simple. it really is, we discuss this god concept with religious people, but thats it.

Even those believers who call themselves "saved" as if their relationship to God were based on some sort of contractual moment, and who think that they were saved because they went up to "the altar call," ....are not saved, but they must continue to work towards salvation.

God does not look with more favor upon believers than unbelievers, but he doles out good things to both, hoping that the believer will improve himself and expecting much from him, and hoping that the unbeliever will repent of his unbelief and begin to live in Christ.

you are one sorry fucker.

 

[spidergoat]

Accepting the reality of no God is painful to many.

 

[D'ster]

'Accepting the reality of God is painful to many'
How can you Accept something as reality that has no measurable presence in reality? Thats whats painful for me.

Love has no presence in reality too.