Abortion

water said:
How serious are the two of you about each other?
If she kept the child -- would you then move together or even marry -- for the sake of the child?!




I'm not assuming, just asking.
I doubt that if a relationship is just casual, it is wise to keep the child. If the partners aren't sure whether they want a life together or not, they better not have children.

And leaving such important decisions -- like living together and having children -- to the fluke of coincidence (if the contraceptives fail), is irresponsible.
Or do you think it is wise to put off deciding about living together and having children until contraceptives fail?

we already live together. but the relationship is not institutionalized in the way that a marriage is. in fact we have not dated for that long, maybe about a year. however, if something unexpected were to happen, i have enough confidence in my and her ability to make the right decision about it that i would do so without any regrets whatsoever.
 
charles cure said:
Along with it, the willingness to abort has also been postulated as the condition for romantic love. Is that fair, is that alright?

i disagree with that. the ability to abort isn't the only condition that allows for people to have sex freely and without fear of pregnancy.

How is it not? If children are not wanted, and no contraceptive is 100% safe, then pregnancy is possible, and with it, abortion required, in said situation.


the problem here is that you are acting as though abortion would or has somehow become the sole or preferrable means of birth control, and i think thats a wrong assumption.

It is not a wrong assumption, I only thought things through.
If children are not wanted, and no contraceptive is 100% safe, then pregnancy is possible, and with it, abortion required, in said situation.
It is as simple as that.


sex isnt a condition of romantic love either, in the way that the word condition in this context is being used in the same way that the word symptom is used in relation to a disease. sex between two people (in its ideal state) is meant to be an EXPRESSION of romantic love. and in that way it is unrelated to abortion.

So the possible negative consequences of sex ... have nothing to do with it?


i would take a male version of the birth control pill,or use a condom, or have a vasectomy if i thought i didnt want to father any children in the future. my father and four of his friends had vasectomies at around the same time about 5 years ago. or have you conveniently forgotten that there are measures that men can and do take to prevent unwanted pregnancy as well, once again your assumptions are getting in the way of your point.

I have not forgotten about what men could do.
But most of them don't do anything, and consider it an infringement on their freedom and body.


If chasing fleeting pleasures is so important to you, then do so.

everybody chases fleeting pleasures.

Not everyone.


it is possible that you have a worse opinion of women than anyone i have ever met, you portray them as emotionally fragile, incapable of independent thought and action, and prisoners of a conspiratorial male heirarchy.

I don't portray them that way. I am saying what the preferred kind of woman seems to be, esp. in the West.

What man wants a strong woman?
What man wants a woman who also says no sometimes?


but we were talking about christians and their outward attitudes toward sex, which often do not reflect the moral attitudes that they apply to their own life and behavior. and are you also forgetting that people who consistently violate the rules and precepts of their religion arent usually good representatives of it? i mean what good would it be for me to say, yeah i believe in jesus and god and stuff, but who cares what he said, in the end i'll just do what i want and repent on my deathbed. doenst that sort of nullify my belief in any of the actual values of the religion. it becomes a nominal allegiance only. so why even bother?

What is your point?


i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that birth control was not as readily available to your grandmother as it is to most young women today. and in addition to that, since she was catholic, that may have precluded her from using it anyway (although it didnt seem to stop her from aborting) so she seems to have been in a situation where she got to a point (repeatedly) where she found abortion to be her only choice for whatever reason.

Her husband just didn't care.


and i dont think that abortions cause cancer. actually,today, for a woman the procedure is statistically safer than having your tonsils removed. i dont really think youre right here.

I don't know if abortions cause cancer; but I know she was very miserable, and her becoming so ill was probably largely psychosomatic.


if you are a person who settles for something they dont want instead of gritting your teeth and working hard to get the thing you do want, then no one can help you because youre already lost.

And you'd say that to a 17-year old, for example?

So quickly lost and gone are people for you.


there are plenty of men in the world (literally billions) i guarantee any woman can find at least one that she deems acceptable to have a relationship with if she tries hard enough. if shes too fragile to deal with being alone during that process, how is that anyone elses fault but her own?

Of course.
And society should deride her for being alone!!


for my part in it, all i may do is live my life according to my standards of responsibility, i cant physically force people to be more responsible, but i can try to encourage it at every turn, which for the most part our society does.

How? By saying things like

if you are a person who settles for something they dont want instead of gritting your teeth and working hard to get the thing you do want, then no one can help you because youre already lost.


you cannot however legislate standards of responsibility that are dictated to us out of a fantasy novel based on an unprovable source of ultimate authority, which is what religion attempts to do using the bible as its proof for establishing a standard of behavior.

If you were the one on the losing side, you'd soon see that the moral standards most religions espouse are those to help the oppressed.
You'd also see that those standards are nothing strange or foreign.


i think what i mean is that you assume certain forces to be at work as motivating factors behind these irresponsible, exploitative and harmful attitudes and actions. i feel as though you have oversimplified the issue greatly. it is a complex set of attitudes, experiences, and reactions that make a person behave in the way they do, not just the solitary influence of one opinion on one issue.

So? Does this mean it should be encouraged that people don't know their intentions,a nd should not investigate them?


theres another of your faulty assumptions at work. no one gives people freedom, people are free by their intrinsic nature.

Not true. People are free only once they realize they are free. No sooner.
I don't think anyone by default thinks they are free.
 
How is it not? If children are not wanted, and no contraceptive is 100% safe, then pregnancy is possible, and with it, abortion required, in said situation.

just because something doesnt work 100% of the time doesnt make it useless. condoms are actually somewhere between 95 and 99% effective, thats not bad. and im pretty sure that other forms of birth control are used WAY more often than abortion. thus making abortion not the preferred method of birth control. effectiveness doesnt have anything to do with it. people dont say to themselves, well the only way to be 100% sure we dont have a child is to get an abortion if you get pregnant so i dont think ill bother using other forms of birth control. thats pretty unrealistic. not to mention that abstinence is also 100% effective and people still use other forms of birth control more than that.


It is not a wrong assumption, I only thought things through.
If children are not wanted, and no contraceptive is 100% safe, then pregnancy is possible, and with it, abortion required, in said situation.
It is as simple as that.


you definitely didnt think it through and its not as simple as that. in fact what you said is a radical oversimplification of the issue.



So the possible negative consequences of sex ... have nothing to do with it?

of course they do, insofar as they inform a persons decision about whether to have sex or not.


I have not forgotten about what men could do.
But most of them don't do anything, and consider it an infringement on their freedom and body.


you know, its funny, because i am a man and i dont think that way, in fact i think that you have no idea what the majority of men perceive at all, and furthermore, i think it would be impossible to prove that anyway. thats another assumption of peoples attitudes with no supporting evidence. a stereotype or generalization does not pass as proof of the correctness of an argument.


Not everyone.

yes everyone in some way or another. candy for example is a fleeting pleasure, as is driving really fast in your car, and enjoying a relaxing day at the beach. its all fleeting. its just not all sex.



I don't portray them that way. I am saying what the preferred kind of woman seems to be, esp. in the West.

What man wants a strong woman?
What man wants a woman who also says no sometimes?


where do you have any kind of proof of that? offer me the evidence that that is the prevailing social paradigm and i'll accept it. i dont think you can find any eveidence though. Strong men want strong women, and deep down, nobody, man or woman really wants someone who says no to anything that they desire, but the crux of any relationship between two people is compromise.


What is your point?

my point was that you were trying to say that people who are religious basically just dont bother to follow the rules of their religion when its inconvenient for them. i dont know that that is true, because if it is then whats the point of people even saying they are religious? it might be true for catholics, but i dont think all christians are that way.


Her husband just didn't care.

so how does that affect anything that i said?



I don't know if abortions cause cancer; but I know she was very miserable, and her becoming so ill was probably largely psychosomatic.

those are the unique circumstances of one persons life, i hope youre not trying to use them as proof that things play out the same way for all women who get abortions, because that would be ridiculous.


And you'd say that to a 17-year old, for example?

So quickly lost and gone are people for you.


i would say that to a 17 year old. i said that if youve decided to live your life that way you are lost. i didnt say people couldnt change or realize thay had made a mistake and learn from it, thats to be expected. but you have to come to terms with reality at some point. you either go for what you want or you settle for what you have. its not rocket science.




Of course.
And society should deride her for being alone!!


where are you getting that from? older single women arent derided or ostracisized for being unmarried or alone nowadays, maybe in the 18th century they were, but not now. in fact, in todays world, where divorce rates are around 62%, single women have more opportunities to find a mate than ever, and there are more of them than ever. your assumptions about society and how it views people are really getting more preposterous with time.



How? By saying things like

yeah, by making people recognize their role in controlling their own lives and being responsible for their own actions you can eradicate the helpless feelings of victimization that are brought on by misconceptions like "this is fate" or "this is just how everything is" or "the meek shall inherit the earth" its not always nice to hear, and its not always nice to say, but there it is.




If you were the one on the losing side, you'd soon see that the moral standards most religions espouse are those to help the oppressed.
You'd also see that those standards are nothing strange or foreign.


first of all, the specific moral standards that each religion espouses vary widely from one belief system to another so that first statement is invalid. and i didnt take issue with religion as a whole, i took issue with christianity and the negative and destructive view it takes of sexuality, especially female sexuality.




So? Does this mean it should be encouraged that people don't know their intentions,a nd should not investigate them?

no. what it means is that you know your own intentions and you dont know the intentions of others, except for a sad few people that happen to cross your path in life. so dont bother speculating on what you cant know. just stick to what you know are your own motivations and dont attempt to project evil ones onto large groups of people without any type of evidence.




Not true. People are free only once they realize they are free. No sooner.
I don't think anyone by default thinks they are free.


dont be ridiculous, people are naturally free. think back to a time before there was ever a civilization or a society on earth, when humans were born into loosely knit groups of nomadic hunter gatherers. those people roamed the earth freely, they went with the pack or against it according to their assertion of the consequences of those actions. they followed instincts and made judgements that informed their actions, but there were no rules or laws to bind them together, no structure to keep them in one place or social station. people invented and agreed to live by societal rules for their mutual good, thus placing restrictions on their own freedom in order to protect themselves from abuses of power. you didnt have to walk up to a cro-magnon man and tell him he was free, it was completely self evident.
 
Incorrect. A zygote (when refering to a human zygote which we are) is a human being in its first stage of develoment, nothing at all like an amoeba or follicle of hair.

Is the following description that of a zygote or an ameba?

A single-cell lifeform that converts nutrients and oxygen into biological energy causing its cells to divide, multiply and grow, which also contains a full set of its own DNA.

That is a description of both.

Murder can only be committed betwixt humans and other humans. That is part of the definition.

A zygote is a potential human, as it is in the same state as an ameba.

Yes, but just pointing out that it is impossible to determine what that person shall aspire to, be it good or ill.

Exactly, but do we allow massive suffering to both children and adults simply because one of them might achieve something?

If I could see into the future as a zygote and realize that I'd be born with down syndrome, or into abject poverty soon to die of starvation, it would be a no-brainer, pull the plug now.
 
Back and forth, back and forth, pro and con, blah blah blah...

Nobody likes abortion. Everybody wishes that no one had to have one. But nobody is going to take the next step in the debate.

Postulate a perfect implant for males and females both that would make conception impossible - install it at age twelve or whatever. Make it totally free for everybody. You want a child? Have it removed when you're ready. Otherwise nobody has to worry about unwanted pregnancy any more.

Nice idea. Gonna happen? You bet your ass it won't. Those opposed to abortion today would step up to the plate against this solution with the same venom. Because it's not about the babies, folks. I submit for your consideration the undeniable fact that those who scream bloody murder about killing babies do not give a shit about the baby after it's born, and they care even less about dying brown babies in other countries. It's not about babies; it's about self-determination. There's a significant number of people in the U.S. (can't speak for other nations) who are adamantly opposed to self-determination for women. Keep them pregnant, scared to death of gettting pregnant, perpetuate the theme of women as property, and all the rest of the nineteenth century baggage.

Before I get off on a tangent, let me also submit for your consideration what would happen if abortion was re-criminalized. Imagine rich girls jetting off to Paris for the weekend to have things taken care of. Imagine poor girls in the back-alley getting butchered up or maybe just snuffing themselves - and don't think for one second it wouldn't happen. Some of these folks are made uncomfortable by abortion - and who wouldn't? - but the zealots are in it for the worst possible reason - to score some brownie points with God. That's all. Are they going to adopt their fair share? Hell, no. Are they going to ask for a tax increase to help raise these kids? Not likely. So what if little Susie goes to the back alley and gets an infection or bleeds to death - she had it coming to her! So what if Jenna or Barbara head out to the Cayman Islands for an abortion and a week on the beach? At least us God-fearing citizens are not permitting the crime on our soil, and so we are absolved of the sin of making the awful choice necessary in the first place.

Back to self-determination for women. Not only is this what abortion is all about, it's also what homosexuality and especially gay marriage is all about. Think about this - if two men or two women can be married, then by definition it is an absolutely equal arrangement - got to be, right? If that is possible, then why not an absolutely equal relationship between a man and a woman? We'd have to demand it! And we can't be having that - no siree - women are too uppity as it is and they got to be put back in their place and other comments.

So when you hear people nattering on about the twin evils of abortion and gay marriage, just subsititute "self-determination for women" and see how your perception starts to shift.

You watch - once abortion gets re-criminalized they'll be after contraception next and then pre-marital sex and so on until the whole christian sharia is in place. Never mind 1984, welcome to 1800, folks.
 
(Q):

A single-cell lifeform that converts nutrients and oxygen into biological energy causing its cells to divide, multiply and grow, which also contains a full set of its own DNA.

Actually, a zygote is not a "single-cell lifeform", as it does not persist as a single cell forever, whilst a amoeba, on the other hand, never becomes a multi-cellular creature. Moreover, you seem not to take into consideration the taxodermic classification of either an amoeba or a human being, which clearly demonstrates that they are massively different.

From Wikipedia:

A zygote (Greek: ζυγωτόν) is a cell that is the result of fertilization. That is, two haploid cells—usually (but not always) a sperm cell from a male and an ovum from a female—merge into a single diploid cell called the zygote (or zygocyte).

Animal zygotes undergo mitotic cell divisions to become an embryo. Other organisms may undergo meiotic cell division at this time (for more information refer to biological life cycles).

Amoeba:

Amoeba is a genus of protozoa that moves by means of temporary projections called pseudopods, and is well-known as a representative unicellular organism. The word amoeba is variously used to refer to it and its close relatives, now grouped as the Amoebozoa, or to all protozoa that move using pseudopods, otherwise termed amoeboids. They are found in sluggish waters all over the world, both fresh and salt, as well as in soils and as parasites.

Amoeba itself is found in freshwater, typically on decaying vegetation from streams, but is not especially common in nature. However, because of the ease with which they may be obtained and kept in the lab, they are common objects of study, both as representative protozoa and to demonstrate cell structure and function. The cells have several lobose pseudopods, with one large tubular pseudopod at the anterior and several secondary ones branching to the sides. The most famous species, A. proteus, is 700-800 μm in length, but many others are much smaller. Each has a single nucleus, and a simple contractile vacuole which maintains its osmotic pressure, as its most recognizable features.

Early naturalists referred to Amoeba as the Proteus animalcule, after a Greek god who could change his shape. The name "amibe" was given to it by Bery St. Vincent, from the Greek amoibe, meaning change.

A zygote is a potential human, as it is in the same state as an ameba.

(Q), I find it hard to imagine that someone such as you, who professes science as the ultimate end of human knowledge, can hold such a semi-religious view of humanity. A zygote is no more a potential human than an infant is a potential human, scientifically it is a human being, genetically verified as such and in all ways fullfilling what makes a human, a human, scientifically. Please, don't interject belief here. We're dealing with science.

Exactly, but do we allow massive suffering to both children and adults simply because one of them might achieve something?

"Massive suffering" can only be determined by the individual who suffers.

Let's deal with this from game theory:

Assuming meaningful experience only outside the womb:

Abortion - Positive results: 0. Negative results: 0
Life - Positive results: Potentially infinite. Negative results: Potentially infinite.

So you have potential infinities of either positive or negatives, with a likelyhood of mixture of both extremely high, whilst one can basically not play the game at all with abortion. Since life also has the option to be ended at virtually any time by the self, you're not only depriving him of the chance for infinite gain, but of being able to decide if the negative truly outweighs the positive.

If I could see into the future as a zygote and realize that I'd be born with down syndrome, or into abject poverty soon to die of starvation, it would be a no-brainer, pull the plug now.

Your decision is utterly viable for yourself, but you cannot presume that this would be the same for all others.
 
I find it hard to imagine that someone such as you, who professes science as the ultimate end of human knowledge, can hold such a semi-religious view of humanity.

Really? I was about to say the same about you as you seem very pro-life, much like theists.

A zygote is no more a potential human than an infant is a potential human, scientifically it is a human being, genetically verified as such and in all ways fullfilling what makes a human, a human, scientifically. Please, don't interject belief here. We're dealing with science.

Then, scientifically speaking, and by your own words, do zygotes only grow to be humans? Is that your belief?

"Massive suffering" can only be determined by the individual who suffers.

Nonsense. Anyone can determine massive suffering is taking place in the southern states where Katrina tore through.

Abortion - Positive results: 0. Negative results: 0
Life - Positive results: Potentially infinite. Negative results: Potentially infinite.


Yeah, right. Skewed and biased results. Nice game theory.

Since life also has the option to be ended at virtually any time by the self, you're not only depriving him of the chance for infinite gain, but of being able to decide if the negative truly outweighs the positive.

We've already been down this road, the same could be said about someone developing a device that could kill millions. Please don't use that tired argument.

Your decision is utterly viable for yourself, but you cannot presume that this would be the same for all others.

Is that the pot calling the kettle black that I hear?
 
Nice idea. Gonna happen? You bet your ass it won't.
If some business invents such a contraption the government, after proving it to be safe, will handle it has a contraceptive.

Those opposed to abortion today would step up to the plate against this solution with the same venom.
Well, nature made most woman capable of having children. Those who attempt to prevent natural fact risk having something bad occur.


Before I get off on a tangent, let me also submit for your consideration what would happen if abortion was re-criminalized. Imagine rich girls jetting off to Paris for the weekend to have things taken care of.
Hopefully the law will extend to other countries. If a woman murders a US citizen(the fetus) in another country, she ought to be arrested and charged.

Imagine poor girls in the back-alley getting butchered up or maybe just snuffing themselves - and don't think for one second it wouldn't happen. Some of these folks are made uncomfortable by abortion - and who wouldn't? - but the zealots are in it for the worst possible reason - to score some brownie points with God. That's all.
Well, going to a back alley to have an abortion is zealotry.

Back to self-determination for women. Not only is this what abortion is all about, it's also what homosexuality and especially gay marriage is all about. Think about this - if two men or two women can be married, then by definition it is an absolutely equal arrangement
I'm not following you here. Men neither can have abortions nor give birth. Clearly the relationship remains unequal even if abortion is allowed.


You watch - once abortion gets re-criminalized they'll be after contraception next and then pre-marital sex and so on until the whole christian sharia is in place. Never mind 1984, welcome to 1800, folks.
Irrelevant to abortion.
 
Hey Q,

Sy praat ook goeie boere Afrikaans. Sy maak my mond water met haar intelligensie!
 
Quote Lori:
"The more we realize that we're in no position to judge each other, the more we're able to help each other to do the right thing."

* Thats why I dig you Lori. I know you mean this.
 
te jen said:
Back and forth, back and forth, pro and con, blah blah blah...

Nobody likes abortion. Everybody wishes that no one had to have one. But nobody is going to take the next step in the debate.

Postulate a perfect implant for males and females both that would make conception impossible - install it at age twelve or whatever. Make it totally free for everybody. You want a child? Have it removed when you're ready. Otherwise nobody has to worry about unwanted pregnancy any more.

Nice idea. Gonna happen? You bet your ass it won't. Those opposed to abortion today would step up to the plate against this solution with the same venom. Because it's not about the babies, folks. I submit for your consideration the undeniable fact that those who scream bloody murder about killing babies do not give a shit about the baby after it's born, and they care even less about dying brown babies in other countries. It's not about babies; it's about self-determination. There's a significant number of people in the U.S. (can't speak for other nations) who are adamantly opposed to self-determination for women. Keep them pregnant, scared to death of gettting pregnant, perpetuate the theme of women as property, and all the rest of the nineteenth century baggage.

Before I get off on a tangent, let me also submit for your consideration what would happen if abortion was re-criminalized. Imagine rich girls jetting off to Paris for the weekend to have things taken care of. Imagine poor girls in the back-alley getting butchered up or maybe just snuffing themselves - and don't think for one second it wouldn't happen. Some of these folks are made uncomfortable by abortion - and who wouldn't? - but the zealots are in it for the worst possible reason - to score some brownie points with God. That's all. Are they going to adopt their fair share? Hell, no. Are they going to ask for a tax increase to help raise these kids? Not likely. So what if little Susie goes to the back alley and gets an infection or bleeds to death - she had it coming to her! So what if Jenna or Barbara head out to the Cayman Islands for an abortion and a week on the beach? At least us God-fearing citizens are not permitting the crime on our soil, and so we are absolved of the sin of making the awful choice necessary in the first place.

Back to self-determination for women. Not only is this what abortion is all about, it's also what homosexuality and especially gay marriage is all about. Think about this - if two men or two women can be married, then by definition it is an absolutely equal arrangement - got to be, right? If that is possible, then why not an absolutely equal relationship between a man and a woman? We'd have to demand it! And we can't be having that - no siree - women are too uppity as it is and they got to be put back in their place and other comments.

So when you hear people nattering on about the twin evils of abortion and gay marriage, just subsititute "self-determination for women" and see how your perception starts to shift.

You watch - once abortion gets re-criminalized they'll be after contraception next and then pre-marital sex and so on until the whole christian sharia is in place. Never mind 1984, welcome to 1800, folks.

for once, there's a post that i agree with in its entirity.
 
Prince_James said:
(Q):






Let's deal with this from game theory:

Assuming meaningful experience only outside the womb:

Abortion - Positive results: 0. Negative results: 0
Life - Positive results: Potentially infinite. Negative results: Potentially infinite.

So you have potential infinities of either positive or negatives, with a likelyhood of mixture of both extremely high, whilst one can basically not play the game at all with abortion. Since life also has the option to be ended at virtually any time by the self, you're not only depriving him of the chance for infinite gain, but of being able to decide if the negative truly outweighs the positive.


i feel like what youre saying here is that life, just like abortion is a zero sum game. nice.
 
okinrus said:
Hopefully the law will extend to other countries. If a woman murders a US citizen(the fetus) in another country, she ought to be arrested and charged.

this is the kind of opinion that makes me ashamed of our country and the ridiculous illusion that it could ever have been founded on the concept of freedom of choice and some sembelence of equality.

by the way, you may want to check the law, but youre not a citizen until you are actually born.
 
(Q):

Really? I was about to say the same about you as you seem very pro-life, much like theists.

It's the one thing which I find the majority of American Theists seem to think right. But yes, it seems we're both finding eachother a bit odd.

Then, scientifically speaking, and by your own words, do zygotes only grow to be humans? Is that your belief?

No. There are zygotes of other creatures. I was, however, refering to human zygotes alone, as was evidenced by my argument and the context of which 'zygote' was used. If therein lies your confusion, a thousand apologies.

Nonsense. Anyone can determine massive suffering is taking place in the southern states where Katrina tore through.

Because the people are saying they are suffering. Imagine, however, that everyone in New Orleans were very stoic and exceedingly indifferent to hardship, would "suffering" exist there? Moreover, is it not up to the individual to determine how much suffering matters to them? There are many who are extremely impaired and who live with their suffering.

Yeah, right. Skewed and biased results. Nice game theory.

From the point of the fetus, I should have noted.

We've already been down this road, the same could be said about someone developing a device that could kill millions. Please don't use that tired argument.

Might you explain how the two are the same?

Is that the pot calling the kettle black that I hear?

Nay. You personally think suffering would be terrible. This is your value. You have no rational foundation for imposing it upon all others. I, on the other hand, am arguing simply from what scientifically a human is and why abortion ought not to be legal, considering what murder is defined as.

Stretched:

We could make it a crime to have an abortion in another country, thereby dealing with your "rich girl" argument, just as Okinrus said.

Also, what about "self-determination" for children? Or really, what sort of "self-determination" is there here? The child is not the mother, and thus to have an abortion is not "self-determination" but inflicting that "self-determination" on another.

charles cure:

i feel like what youre saying here is that life, just like abortion is a zero sum game. nice.

The potentiality of life makes this not so, specifically as quality of life cannot be guaged presciently, nor can it be guaged by anyone but the individual.
 
Prince_James said:
(Q):

charles cure:



The potentiality of life makes this not so, specifically as quality of life cannot be guaged presciently, nor can it be guaged by anyone but the individual.


i dont think so. remember the cold war. there was a pretty famous zero sum game going on there between the US and Soviet Union called Nuclear Arms Proliferation. There was a concept known as mutually assured destruction, which was a scenario that played out with an attack by one of the superpowers on the other, and the resulting response from the nation that had been attacked resulting in basically worldwide catastrophe. what youre describing is the same thing. any number of unknown quantities are in play here.

say that Russia attacked the US during the cold war. they could potentially have caused mass destruction to their enemy, and perhaps not have suffered the consequences of a retaliatory attack for any of the following reasons - equipment malfunction, human error, the destruction of key pieces of infrastructure that make a retaliatory attack possible, of just a radical (although unlikely) change of heart by the US president.
however, Russia also saw the potential for things to work out for them in a negative way, and, in theory this pre-empted any nuclear attack from them.

the point is that nuclear proliferation was a zero sum game despite the fact that there was unlimited potential for each side to cause massive destruction to their enemies, and in doing so, acheiving a desirable end (from their point of view). the key preventive factor keeping Mutually Assured Destruction from actually happening was the superpowers abilities to assess risks and to do a cost-benefit analysis of any particular course of action.

this is the same thing i was talking about in the beginning of this debate, although the potential for an unborn child to be something amazing is unlimited, humanity at some point will have to assess the risks of overpopulation, homogeneity in populatiuons, distribution of finite resources...etc. and decide whether the cause of humans that already exist is furthered in some tangible way by bringing every unborn child into the world just because they have potential. think of it as human proliferation instead of arms proliferation. different subject, same zero sum game.
 
But if overpopulation is an issue why not just cull old folk - that have at least had the chance to live a full long life, or those on welfare, drug pushers, paedophiles, rapists etc?

It seems mighty bizarre to me that instead of that you would call for a slaughter of the completely innocent.
 
Unwanted pregnancies cause crime.

Abortion drove crime rates down in all the major cities since poor girls didn't have to raise children they didn't want.
 
If the child is unwanted, there are alternatives to killing that child. Fostering and adoption for example.

I can guarantee you there are couples out there screaming to have children, but unfortunately can't. Instead of killing the child you don't want, why not let those that do be given the chance to give that human a life of being loved?

Btw, do you have a link to abortion/crime rate statistics?
 
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