Abortion

Originally posted by okinrus
If science and computing advances enough to
look at the DNA and determine physical
attributes you could even create a picture
at 5 years old. The only difference here
is that one is further on the path than the other.
You are underestimating the impact of enviroment.

No your missing the genetic information of the female.
Yes, notice I didn't say all.

Nonexistance of birth is not death since to kill you must kill a living human being.
DNA alone does not make a human being. Therefore abortion is not murder.
 
You are underestimating the impact of enviroment.
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Murder is murder where ever it takes place.

DNA alone does not make a human being. Therefore abortion is not murder.
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Here we have a living organism with DNA.
This DNA is the same DNA at birth so in fact the fetus
is the same entity before birth and after birth and so
also must be of the same species.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Murder is murder where ever it takes place.
You were talking about predicting waht a 5 year-old would look like... not murder. Did you get lost on your way to reading your own post?

Here we have a living organism with DNA.
This DNA is the same DNA at birth so in fact the fetus
is the same entity before birth and after birth and so
also must be of the same species.
My sperm are alive, as are the eggs, and the plants the kid will eat. They are all the same as they will be after birth. Just combined. However, I doubt you'd argue that me having a wet dream consitutes the killing of thousands of children.

The fetus is not the same as the baby. There are still enviromental interests that shape the baby, and external forces that cause it's development. DNA is not the end all that you make it out too be.
 
You were talking about predicting waht a 5 year-old would look like... not murder. Did you get lost on your way to reading your own post?
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I'm not sure what you mean by the environment.
Sure maybe 5% of the 5 year olds might be killed.
Maybe he will loose an eye or a leg etc.
But this avoids the point that killing a 5 year old
exposed to any environment is still murder.

My sperm are alive, as are the eggs, and the plants the kid will eat. They are all the same as they will be after birth. Just combined. However, I doubt you'd argue that me having a wet dream consitutes the killing of thousands of children.
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Sperm, eggs, and plants are not human. None
of them have human DNA with the capababilty to grow
to be an adult human.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Murder is murder where ever it takes place.


Here we have a living organism with DNA.
This DNA is the same DNA at birth so in fact the fetus
is the same entity before birth and after birth and so
also must be of the same species.
Click to expand...

You evil creature...you commit mass murder then every time you pick your nose.
 
I'm killing my self millions of times.
Besides skin cells do not have the potentional
to grow up into an adult.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
I'm not sure what you mean by the environment.
Sure maybe 5% of the 5 year olds might be killed.
Maybe he will loose an eye or a leg etc.
You really don't know much do you. Your appearance is decided as much by what you eat, the way you sleep, how you exercise, etc as much as by genetics. You said you can say what a year old will look like simply by taking DNA. This is false.

But this avoids the point that killing a 5 year old
exposed to any environment is still murder.
I don't see the point. Everybody agrees that a 5 year old is human. The same is not agreed of fetuses.

Sperm, eggs, and plants are not human. None
of them have human DNA with the capababilty to grow
to be an adult human.
Actually each has 'human' DNA(even the plant). Also, the DNA in an early fetus is not the same exact DNA that will be there if it develops into a child. DNA is not a valid reason to say it's human... as is evidenced by when you pick your nose. Saying that it's human at conception is just silly. We have a couple dozen stem cell lines floating around that fit your criteria... and somechristians wanted them destroyed. MURDERER!
 
You really don't know much do you. Your appearance is decided as much by what you eat, the way you sleep, how you exercise, etc as much as by genetics. You said you can say what a year old will look like simply by taking DNA. This is false.
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I would be possible to get a pretty good idea. Probably
good enough to reconize the same 5 year old. Identical
twins who grew up in different families still look identical.

Saying that it's human at conception is just silly. We have a couple dozen stem cell lines floating around that fit your criteria... and somechristians wanted them destroyed. MURDERER!
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Check out this site. There are some atheist against
abortion.
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

But what is your definition of a human being. It appears
that if you say a rational human being, then that rules
out a newly born human being. If you say a somewhat
rational human being then the late term unborn would
also be somewhat rational. If you say potentional, the
unborn baby has more learning potentional and grown than
a 21 year old. So we find that the only way to define a human
being so that the law can be upholded is at conception.
 
So we find that the only way to define a human
being so that the law can be upholded is at conception.
That's just ignorant. You are saying your definition of human is correct because you can't think of a better way.

Why not just pick the point at which it is easily recognizable as human. This still excludes late term abortions, but still allows first term.
 
That's just ignorant. You are saying your definition of human is correct because you can't think of a better way.

Why not just pick the point at which it is easily recognizable as human. This still excludes late term abortions, but still allows first term.
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If I assumed that the fetus had no soul, then the heart beat
is a sure indicator of human life.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
If I assumed that the fetus had no soul, then the heart beat
is a sure indicator of human life.
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And just to clarify, the heartbeat is not present at conception.
 
The sheer number of abortions
means that society will have to choose the safe path.
For example if there is a .01% chance that the
fetus is alive as a human person, then multiplying that
by the 5 million or so abortions still gives a fairly
large chance that you are killing a person.
 
god is allowed to do abortions but humans aren't...i smell a discrimination lawsuite cooking here.


edit: what a stupid post of mine, but i refuse to delete it, because other people have the right to see my stupidity...kiitos..
 
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I'm against abortion regardless of the situation. If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant...she can adopt the child out to someone who will love it as their own. There's a lot of couples out there who would love to parent a child.
Sure this situation can be very tramatic for the mother but think about how tramatic it is for the fetus who is getting chopped up like dog food. It's insane...
It's not the childs fault how it got here. Who are we... to play God to decide who should live or who should die.
All life is precious and should have a fighting chance to make something out of the life they were given.
I'd like to think that the aborted child could be the hope of all mankind. How will we ever know if we don't give them the same chance we had (LIFE).
 
that perspective would be much harder to live by if you were raped i would imagine. a woman shouldnt have to suffer through a 9 month pregnancy that is a constant reminder of another terrible experience she had to suffer through. if a woman's body is not her own to reproduce with then it isnt unreasonable that she would have to register with the selective service for a draft to have more babies to fight more wars. we afterall do not want to prevent any of the souls up there in heaven waiting for a body from having what we have LIFE. (sarcasm)
 
Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
that perspective would be much harder to live by if you were raped i would imagine. a woman shouldnt have to suffer through a 9 month pregnancy that is a constant reminder of another terrible experience she had to suffer through. if a woman's body is not her own to reproduce with then it isnt unreasonable that she would have to register with the selective service for a draft to have more babies to fight more wars. we afterall do not want to prevent any of the souls up there in heaven waiting for a body from having what we have LIFE. (sarcasm)
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Shrubby...There are always two sides to every story. Yes, rape is a cruel act. But, I'd like to think a woman is intelligent enough to know that the child she is carrying is not just the rapest, but it's her baby as well. How does justifying destoying a new life any better than the rape itself?
If for that reason and that reason alone...I feel a woman would want the satisfatction of turning something negative into something positive.
I know from experience how men can be. Some can be animals...two wrongs don't make a right!
I'm a woman who lost a full term baby after carrying him for nine months. I'll tell you one thing. From the time of conception, he was "my child" who was growing inside me. You never forget about the life you lost regardless of how old the fetus was. I wouldn't wish this on anybody. A child is a part of you. There's not a day that goes by I wonder what could have been.
I've talked to woman who have had abortions. Death of a child is forever. Once it's happens, you can't bring them back.
By the way...how do you know the life a woman aborts isn't the life up there waiting to be born?
I just happen to be a woman who feels very strong about Life. If a child doesn't have a right to live, than who does?
 
This post applies mainly to okinrus or other theists who are pro-life. If we are going to die and go to heaven anyway, why not just let the baby go straight instead of enduring a lower demographic here? A fetus Lives from its umbilibal cord until it is cut. It is part of the mother until it is released and can exist by itself for a reasonable period of time. And i know that a baby would die if you left it sitting on the table for a few days, but so would many unknowing adults if they were left in the woods for the same amount of time. But what is important is that after birth the baby can breathe and sustain itself within the environment, something it cannot do as a fetus.
 
This post applies mainly to okinrus or other theists who are pro-life. If we are going to die and go to heaven anyway, why not just let the baby go straight instead of enduring a lower demographic here? A fetus Lives from its umbilibal cord until it is cut. It is part of the mother until it is released and can exist by itself for a reasonable period of time. And i know that a baby would die if you left it sitting on the table for a few days, but so would many unknowing adults if they were left in the woods for the same amount of time. But what is important is that after birth the baby can breathe and sustain itself within the environment, something it cannot do as a fetus.
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If you look at the sky some stars are more bright than others. So it will be in the resurrection. Were also not sure if the fetus will go to heaven. It is possible that the fetus will go to a limbo state. Another possibility is that God could reuse the fetus' soul. Those in a comma may have to go on life support etc unable to
breath or sustain food on their own. Environment cannot be used
to determine murder. The fetus' environment is the womb.
 
the fetus is in the woman's body.

if babies are in heaven just waiting in line for a body, who cares if they have to wait a little longer. i wouldve thought god would have been wise enough to understand supply and demand
 
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