Abortion: Rights, Permission, and Family (among other things)

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Except in the case of rape a woman makes the choice to have sex. If you choose to have sex, you should have the guts to stand by the consequences of sex. The child does not choose to be conceived. Abortion unless it is from forced sex or a life and death decision, is really just about considering children expendable to other life choices. Yes children are a responsibility, so is sex. It is irresponsible to have sex casually then flush the kid down the loo. The right to choose is not the right to abuse.

My god Sam do you know what the world would be like if EVERY unwanted pregnancy went to term? Look at how people are mired in poverty in developing countries because they don't have access to either contraceptives or abortions. Look how women especially poor women are excluded from education and limited to work because they are pregnant. You seem to think that the world is full of bourgeois people or cohesive families and communities are you mad? It is not! Who would pay for all these unwanted babies Sam? Do you think that a poor woman who is saddled down with one child tends to stop? No. Middle class and upper class women tend to have maybe one abortion and then later go on to managed family planning but the poor do not do that.

Would you go back to the time of women seeking and dying from back street abortions?

Its simply unrealistic and the world was like that in the past and it wasn't pretty, just read Sanger's story.

Again they are not children. Look at the definition:

Child:

S: (n) child, kid, youngster, minor, shaver, nipper, small fry, tiddler, tike, tyke, fry, nestling (a young person of either sex) "she writes books for children"; "they're just kids"; "`tiddler' is a British term for youngster"
S: (n) child, kid (a human offspring (son or daughter) of any age) "they had three children"; "they were able to send their kids to college"
S: (n) child, baby (an immature childish person) "he remained a child in practical matters as long as he lived"; "stop being a baby!"

Fetus:

S: (n) fetus, foetus (an unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature anim

There is no abuse here Sam. Abortions are not done by sitting on the toilet and taking a dump, its a medical procedure to remove the fetus from the womb.

Ever see a 2 month old fetus?

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-8-weeks

Don't worry its simply a painted diagram. Most women have an abortion after they missed their first period and its usually within two weeks. What is aborted is the fetus, not a child (child as in the definition of a child)

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The World Health Organization (WHO) reports each year nearly 42 million women faced with an unintended pregnancy have an abortion; and according to the 2007 estimates conducted collaboratively by the WHO and Guttmacher Institute, 20 million unsafe abortions take place each year, most in countries where abortion is illegal.

According to WHO and Guttmacher, approximately 68,000 women die annually as a result of complications of unsafe abortion; and between two million and seven million women each year survive unsafe abortion but sustain long-term damage or disease (incomplete abortion, infection (sepsis), haemorrhage, and injury to the internal organs, such as puncturing or tearing of the uterus).

They also concluded abortion is safe in countries where it's legal, but dangerous in countries where it's outlawed and performed clandestinely. The WHO reports that in developed regions, nearly all abortions (92%) are safe, whereas in developing countries, more than half (55%) are unsafe.

According to WHO statistics, the risk rate for unsafe abortion is 1/270; according to other sources, unsafe abortion is responsible for one in eight maternal deaths. Worldwide, 48% of all induced abortions are unsafe.


An article from the World Health Organization calls safe, legal abortion a "fundamental right of women, irrespective of where they live" and unsafe abortion a "silent pandemic"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion

That is what we would face if abortions were made illegal.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

WOMEN who are denied abortions only rarely give up their unwanted babies for adoption, and many harbor resentment and anger toward their children for years, a new study has found.

What is more, children born to women whose requests for an abortion were refused are much likelier to be troubled and depressed, to drop out of school, to commit crimes, to suffer from serious illnesses and to express dissatisfaction with life than are the offspring of willing parents.

The study suggests that the potential consequences of preventing a woman from ending an unwanted pregnancy are more extensive and disturbing than previously realized.

Dr. Dagg said that not all women who were refused an abortion suffered as a result, and that 59 percent who chose to keep their babies described themselves as glad for not having aborted the fetus. But he said this figure might not reflect the women's true feelings because there was strong social pressure not to acknowledge that a child was an unwanted burden.

Other researchers praised the study for its breadth and statistical soundness. "It's quite thorough and exhaustively done," said Dr. Nada L. Stotland, an associate professor of clinical psychiatry and obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Chicago who has just finished a book about the psychiatric aspects of abortion. "Its conclusions confirm everything I've seen in the psychiatric literature."



http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/29/n...bles-women-denied-abortions.html?pagewanted=1


This is what you face if you deny women an abortion.

I am not asking you to accept abortion as a choice for you in your life, I am asking you to think of what it would mean for another who doesn't share your disposition. That 'other' person may actually wind up being the victim ALONG WITH THE NEWLY BORN CHILD!

What is important Sam? Children given a chance to be born into a financial and or emotionally stable household whether single parent or not? Or is it simply being born even if it means they will not be loved nor cared for? Do you actually believe we need more people like that running around in the world? I mean really?

 

[Kennyc]

Washington is one of several states in the U.S. that do not require parental notification before a minor undertakes an abortion.

The Ballard High School THC did not inform the girl's mother before facilitating the abortion.

The mother signed a permission slip allowing the girl to receive treatment at the BHS/THC, including reproductive services.

The mother laments that she feels "like [her] rights were completely stripped away."

Any of these issues pertain to law. You're welcome to take your pick.
....

Well then I amend my question. Which of these (specifically) is the poll above referring to in the first two choices. It is far from clear.

As the story currently stands the only issue I see is that the mother did not (bother) to understand the details/repercussions of the medical permission grant to the school she signed. The only one to blame there is herself, hopefully she was aware of the law about no parental notification required....but given the situation, perhaps not.

As I see it everything worked as designed. Decisions were made by those legally allowed to make them.

End of story.

P.S. I think one choice was left out: Fox News needs to keep its legs closed.

 

[S.A.M.]

Lucy:

You're defending positions I did not advocate. Contraceptives and abortion are easily available in India. the single most important factor in number of children is womens education, not access to abortion.

I am not advocating that abortions be made illegal. I am advocating that it should be more than a matter of convenience to kill a child. There are more than a million abortions every year in the US alone. There needs to be a change in the attitude to abortion among women. Unfortunately, its unlikely to happen in the ever growing culture where relationships, sex and intimacy are all disposable and easily replaced

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Lucy:

You're defending positions I did not advocate. Contraceptives and abortion are easily available in India. the single most important factor in number of children is womens education, not access to abortion.

I am not advocating that abortions be made illegal. I am advocating that it should be more than a matter of convenience to kill a child. There are more than a million abortions every year in the US alone. There needs to be a change in the attitude to abortion among women. Unfortunately, its unlikely to happen in the ever growing culture where relationships, sex and intimacy are all disposable and easily replaced

What is wrong with women's education, contraceptives and abortion? Abortion you are saying is unnecessary so no I am not defending positions you weren't advocating, as its only in a perfect world where an abortion is unnecessary. We have education in the States and Europe and still women have abortions.

You keep saying its a matter of convenience but I see it as a necessity. The fact that there are millions of abortions really doesn't bother me, what would bother me more is if they didn't have access to such safe services because as we all know you are not going to change something so basic to human nature that ALL men and women become somehow so responsible that an abortion never occurs.

I mean really the only attitude change that you would like to see among women towards abortion is that they refrain from having them.

By the way I don't think this is something that is simply 'growing'. The only difference is that people have more a choice in lifestyle. In traditional places like Cambodia for example a woman must marry, usually before the age of 28 and its generally arranged. She cannot date and experience or travel without her family and decide when she wants to marry and whom. She is also quite dependent on the family. Sometimes this is great and at other times it isn't. There is domestic abuse, abuse against children etc and all the while there are those who would say 'well at least they are married and ensconced in a family' which can actually amount to its own hell.

Contemporary modern society god knows isn't perfect but I do believe that it has reached levels of freedom for women that would be envied by the women who came before them.

 

[Orleander]

...."Nowhere," laments the mother, "in this paperwork does it mention abortion or facilitating abortion."

Dan Springer explains for FOX, "The form says kids can get reproductive health services through the school clinic, but abortion is not mentioned."

Okay, just a remedial note for those who need it: Abortion is a reproductive health service....

so if my son had wanted a vasectomy, would they have helped him get that as well? :shrug:

 

[visceral_instinct]

Question for SAM.

Why does a cluster of cells matter so much that a woman owes it to that entity to put everything else in her life second and have the child?

In most cases, you're talking about flushing out something that doesn't yet have a neocortex and therefore isn't conscious.

Why does the woman owe this lump of gelatine so much?

Also, I am surprised at someone highly educated like you using an expression like 'flush the kid down the loo'. Surely you don't think of an embryo in early development as a 'kid'??

Contemporary modern society god knows isn't perfect but I do believe that it has reached levels of freedom for women that would be envied by the women who came before them.

No shit. For all that western society is full of crap, I feel immensely grateful that I can look forward to whatever life I wish to construct for myself and work for, rather than being forced to marry and have kids.

 

[Tiassa]

This and that

so if my son had wanted a vasectomy, would they have helped him get that as well?

I'm not sure. Why don't you call them and ask?

• • •​

Well then I amend my question. Which of these (specifically) is the poll above referring to in the first two choices. It is far from clear.

As the story currently stands the only issue I see is that the mother did not (bother) to understand the details/repercussions of the medical permission grant to the school she signed. The only one to blame there is herself, hopefully she was aware of the law about no parental notification required....but given the situation, perhaps not.

As I see it everything worked as designed. Decisions were made by those legally allowed to make them.

I think you're making it more difficult than necessary. It's intentionally general because that's actually a frequent discussion in the U.S.:

"Why are you complaining? They followed the law."

—Well, the law needs to be changed.​

I figure those who don't like the outcome at Ballard High are welcome to prescribe what changes in the law they would prefer. Some possible changes people might advocate, though by no means the complete spectrum:

• Require parental notification for minors seeking an abortion.
• Require additional parental consent for each medical treatment at the clinic, instead of simply relying on a permission slip.
• Exclude abortion from the rubric of reproductive health services.
• Prohibit public school clinics from aiding, abetting, or facilitating abortions.
• &c.​

There are all sorts of strange changes the pro-life crowd might prescribe, though I highly doubt requiring parents by force of law to have a clue what they are signing is on that list.

 

[Kennyc]

...

I think you're making it more difficult than necessary. It's intentionally general because that's actually a frequent discussion in the U.S.:

...

No I'm not. If you are going to post a poll then you should make it clear what the choices mean, otherwise it's MEANINGLESS, which is exactly what we are seeing in the results.

6 votes total.

3 for the family needs help
3 for Fox needs help.

 

[Tiassa]

(yawn ....)

No I'm not. If you are going to post a poll then you should make it clear what the choices mean, otherwise it's MEANINGLESS, which is exactly what we are seeing in the results.

Or you could try some independent thought, and not beg for everyone else to spoon-feed you pabulum.

What would you like, a numbered statute that you're never going to bother actually reading? I can always get back to you in a month or two with all the applicable local, state, and federal laws. Well, probably not all of them. The Federal Register is pretty damn big, and the RCW is a multivolume set. And then, of course, there are the county codes and rules specific to Seattle public schools.

Really, I never thought thinking was too much to ask of people. But, hey, I'm accustomed to being wrong about those sorts of things, so don't worry about it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Question for SAM.

Why does a cluster of cells matter so much that a woman owes it to that entity to put everything else in her life second and have the child?

In most cases, you're talking about flushing out something that doesn't yet have a neocortex and therefore isn't conscious.

Why does the woman owe this lump of gelatine so much?

Also, I am surprised at someone highly educated like you using an expression like 'flush the kid down the loo'. Surely you don't think of an embryo in early development as a 'kid'??



No shit. For all that western society is full of crap, I feel immensely grateful that I can look forward to whatever life I wish to construct for myself and work for, rather than being forced to marry and have kids.

Why would you be forced to marry? Isn't that archaic? Are you forced to have sex too?

What do you think they do with the fetuses after they are suctioned out piece by piece?

Are you quite certain that when the fetuses arms and legs are being pulled off by vacuum he/she isn't feeling a thing? I've seen live abortions on ultrasound and I wouldn't make that claim. Fetuses as young as 18 weeks suck their thumbs.

And there was a time when people were equally certain that newborns couldn't feel a thing.

You are of course free to make your own choices, just don't expect me to say they are correct.

 

[Kennyc]

Or you could try some independent thought, and not beg for everyone else to spoon-feed you pabulum.

What would you like, a numbered statute that you're never going to bother actually reading? I can always get back to you in a month or two with all the applicable local, state, and federal laws. Well, probably not all of them. The Federal Register is pretty damn big, and the RCW is a multivolume set. And then, of course, there are the county codes and rules specific to Seattle public schools.

Really, I never thought thinking was too much to ask of people. But, hey, I'm accustomed to being wrong about those sorts of things, so don't worry about it.

Wow, what a nice person you are. Let's put the shoe where it fits (hmmm...) on the person that created the nonsensical poll.

You get what you give, or what you expect, if you expect meaningless results you're likely to get them.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Why would you be forced to marry? Isn't that archaic? Are you forced to have sex too?

What do you think they do with the fetuses after they are suctioned out piece by piece?

Are you quite certain that when the fetuses arms and legs are being pulled off by vacuum he/she isn't feeling a thing? I've seen live abortions on ultrasound and I wouldn't make that claim. Fetuses as young as 18 weeks suck their thumbs.

And there was a time when people were equally certain that newborns couldn't feel a thing.

You are of course free to make your own choices, just don't expect me to say they are correct.

Um, no, that's my point. My post amounted to 'I am grateful that I have my own life and am not forced to marry.'

How old were these fetuses? No neocortex = no awareness of pain. Are you talking about early abortions or late??

To be honest - this is my own opinion rather than an argument - I don't really care if it IS conscious. I don't care if it's happily lying in there writing a novel, actually. It's my body, not an incubator. I don't owe that lump of gelatine anything.

 

[Tiassa]

I was wrong; my expectations are excessive—sorry about that

Wow, what a nice person you are. Let's put the shoe where it fits (hmmm...) on the person that created the nonsensical poll.

You're right. I'm sorry. I should not discount human diversity so much. It's an unfortunate tendency of mine to presume that people who take part in various discussions actually have some idea regarding the dynamics of the issues involved.

You get what you give, or what you expect, if you expect meaningless results you're likely to get them.

Again, you are correct. If I hold naîve expectations, I should expect naîve results.

 

[Bells]

Except in the case of rape a woman makes the choice to have sex. If you choose to have sex, you should have the guts to stand by the consequences of sex. The child does not choose to be conceived. Abortion unless it is from forced sex or a life and death decision, is really just about considering children expendable to other life choices. Yes children are a responsibility, so is sex. It is irresponsible to have sex casually then flush the kid down the loo. The right to choose is not the right to abuse.

The child does not choose to be conceived in rape either. And yet, in situations of rape and when the mother's health is at stake, you say that it is acceptable for a woman to use abortion as a contraceptive method, but if the sex was voluntary, she should reconsider that choice because she is killing a child.

I find that position a tad hypocritical, to be honest. If you are against abortion by choice, then you should, theoretically, be against all abortion because you feel that the child has rights. Why, in your opinion, does the child lose its rights if the mother is raped or her health is endangered, but that the child should not lose those rights if the sex was voluntary?

In other words, how can you consider that a child can be expendable in a situation such as rape or a life or death situation, but not when the sex was voluntary? Why does the mother's rights surpass the child's in rape but should not surpass in a situation where the sex was voluntary? Obviously, if she voluntarily had sex, and a pregnancy results regardless of the contraception method's used, she did not choose to get pregnant, just as she does not choose to get pregnant when she is raped. So why does her rights have priority in one instance but should not in the other?

 

[mordea]

• The school has "completely stripped away" your rights.

She has a fair case. Consent by itself is *not* adequate. That consent must be informed. The school is in error if they failed to adequately explain the implications of a parent signing such a form.

 

[S.A.M.]

The child does not choose to be conceived in rape either. And yet, in situations of rape and when the mother's health is at stake, you say that it is acceptable for a woman to use abortion as a contraceptive method, but if the sex was voluntary, she should reconsider that choice because she is killing a child.

Actually I don't think its acceptable even in such cases, but its more justifiable. A person born of rape is as innocent as a person born of love, don't you think?

In the case of choosing between the mothers life and the childs life, thats a doctors decision to advise on such, but they always ask for informed consent and then its upto the woman or her guardian. You've been through this, would you have considered it acceptable to abort the child if it was a decision between the two of you?

 

[Tiassa]

(sigh)

She has a fair case. Consent by itself is *not* adequate. That consent must be informed. The school is in error if they failed to adequately explain the implications of a parent signing such a form.

:wallbang:

To reiterate:

Okay, just a remedial note for those who need it: Abortion is a reproductive health service.​

No, not everybody has to be an Einstein, but one cannot account for every possible form of naîvete or outright stupidity among diverse humanity. In this case, we cannot fault the school for the mother's apparent error.

 

[S.A.M.]

A D&C is also a reproductive health service, so, one might argue is circumcision. I think before taking any invasive/irreversible surgical steps on a minor, parents should be informed. You have a daughter Ti, wouldn't you at least like to know if she was going to be having an abortion?