Abortion: Rights, Permission, and Family (among other things)
- Thread starter Tiassa
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
But he isn't pregnant she is. Pregnancy is a purely physical and emotional experience a male can only have knowledge of vicariously. Also the stats were just to show you what a single woman may risk when she has a child she is not financially prepared for in a society where there is little social welfare support. This girl would be naive to think a teenage boy is going to take responsibility, so she will have to be prepared to take full financial responsibility and if she's lucky her parents will help. During teenage years when everyone is immature it is not likely that a young man will take on giving away his allowance money for diapers. Its unlikely she would be happy to give up her freedom so early before she is even able to take care of herself independently. Finally the moment a woman knows she doesn't want the child it is irrelevant as to his opinion and there is no point in telling him because she is having an immediate abortion. She would talk to him about it if she were tied to him in some deep meaningful way, she would talk to him about it if she were not sure. This girl was so sure she did it immediately no questions needed to be asked or deliberated.
What rights would you give the male?
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There is something very wrong with this system of values
He should be informed. If he wants the child and the mother does not, there should be some conditions under which he has that right, women should be equally culpable for protection. If he doesn't want the child and the mother does, he should not have to pay for maintenance. Or at least, should have the choice to say no.
All of the above of course, do not apply to coercive or forced sex and require consenting adults. In the case of the 15 year old, I think the parents should have some options, because the child and the childs child is their responsibility. I am not sure I like the idea of 15 year olds having such ease of access to abortions. If you don't want to get pregnant the time to think about that is before having sex. If you're not mature enough to have children, how are you mature enough to decide issues like abortion?
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
S.A.M.: There is something very wrong with this system of values
Hmm. How so? Which values are you referring to?
Sam: He should be informed. If he wants the child and the mother does not, there should be some conditions under which he has that right, women should be equally culpable for protection. If he doesn't want the child and the mother does, he should not have to pay for maintenance. Or at least, should have the choice to say no.
Like what? Are you saying that she should be legally forced to deliver a baby she doesn't want? Carry it for nine months undergoing all the health risks involved? She's not a surrogate mother. What if she had slept with him once and they are not even really too emotionally involved? Are you also going to demand she breast milk it also?
Sam: All of the above of course, do not apply to coercive or forced sex and require consenting adults. In the case of the 15 year old, I think the parents should have some options, because the child and the childs child is their responsibility. I am not sure I like the idea of 15 year olds having such ease of access to abortions. If you don't want to get pregnant the time to think about that is before having sex.
The child is their responsibility but the child's child is her responsibility. There are many families that would refuse to support an underage child who is pregnant and you can't force them. Also it is psychologically cruel to force someone to have a child for someone else when its not what they want. I would go further to say that the rage and stress involved in such a scenario (pregnancy is rough even when you want it). I doubt it would be healthy for the child and you don't have any proof that she would actually go about doing all the pre-natal care stuff that is needed to have a healthy child. Its all good and well to say that one should think about things before having sex but in life we make mistakes. I believe that in a humane secular society abortion is a right that every woman should have access to no matter what peter, paul or mary would have to say about it.
Hmm. How so? Which values are you referring to?
Sam: He should be informed. If he wants the child and the mother does not, there should be some conditions under which he has that right, women should be equally culpable for protection. If he doesn't want the child and the mother does, he should not have to pay for maintenance. Or at least, should have the choice to say no.
Like what? Are you saying that she should be legally forced to deliver a baby she doesn't want? Carry it for nine months undergoing all the health risks involved? She's not a surrogate mother. What if she had slept with him once and they are not even really too emotionally involved? Are you also going to demand she breast milk it also?
Sam: All of the above of course, do not apply to coercive or forced sex and require consenting adults. In the case of the 15 year old, I think the parents should have some options, because the child and the childs child is their responsibility. I am not sure I like the idea of 15 year olds having such ease of access to abortions. If you don't want to get pregnant the time to think about that is before having sex.
The child is their responsibility but the child's child is her responsibility. There are many families that would refuse to support an underage child who is pregnant and you can't force them. Also it is psychologically cruel to force someone to have a child for someone else when its not what they want. I would go further to say that the rage and stress involved in such a scenario (pregnancy is rough even when you want it). I doubt it would be healthy for the child and you don't have any proof that she would actually go about doing all the pre-natal care stuff that is needed to have a healthy child. Its all good and well to say that one should think about things before having sex but in life we make mistakes. I believe that in a humane secular society abortion is a right that every woman should have access to no matter what peter, paul or mary would have to say about it.
She slept with him and got pregnant. Thats involved. Do you think women should not be accountable or should be less accountable than men for getting pregnant?
Yes we make mistakes in life. Are we allowed to punish other people for our mistakes? If the fifteen year old had the child then strangled it what would you say? If she had the child and the skateboarder strangled it, what would you say?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
In terms of forcing an unwilling woman to come to term for some man or for family we might want to consider this:
A pregnant woman’s thoughts have a physical connection to her unborn child. “Everything the pregnant mother feels and thinks is communicated through neurohormones to her unborn child, just as surely as are alcohol and nicotine,” states Dr. Thomas Verny whose books, professional publications, and founding of the Association for Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health (APPPAH) and Journal of Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health, have established him as one of the world’s leading authorities on the effects of prenatal environment on personality development.
A pregnant woman’s emotions are created based on the way she perceives her pregnancy, baby shower plans, nursery decoration, marriage, work, health or anything else. A pregnant woman’s thoughts are the precursor for her emotions. And her emotions are the precursor for the neurohormones that Thomas Verny refers to.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/24972/
A pregnant woman’s thoughts have a physical connection to her unborn child. “Everything the pregnant mother feels and thinks is communicated through neurohormones to her unborn child, just as surely as are alcohol and nicotine,” states Dr. Thomas Verny whose books, professional publications, and founding of the Association for Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health (APPPAH) and Journal of Prenatal and Perinatal Psychology and Health, have established him as one of the world’s leading authorities on the effects of prenatal environment on personality development.
A pregnant woman’s emotions are created based on the way she perceives her pregnancy, baby shower plans, nursery decoration, marriage, work, health or anything else. A pregnant woman’s thoughts are the precursor for her emotions. And her emotions are the precursor for the neurohormones that Thomas Verny refers to.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/24972/
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
S.A.M.:She slept with him and got pregnant. Thats involved. Do you think women should not be accountable or should be less accountable than men for getting pregnant?
That's not involved. Having sex with someone does not a relationship make nor does it require deep meaningful feelings of love. I think that a woman is being accountable when she makes a decision of what she wants to do when she is pregnant. So if after consideration she decides to have it fine, if she decides to abort that is also fine. The moment you make a decision you are being accountable.
Sam: Yes we make mistakes in life. Are we allowed to punish other people for our mistakes? If the fifteen year old had the child then strangled it what would you say? If she had the child and the skateboarder strangled it, what would you say?
Who would be punished? Do you really believe some spotty faced teenager would want to be a father? :bugeye: No one is punished by having an abortion, you would be punishing the woman if there were mechanisms forcing her to have an unwanted pregnancy.
Strangling a child is not similar in any way to having an abortion.
That's not involved. Having sex with someone does not a relationship make nor does it require deep meaningful feelings of love. I think that a woman is being accountable when she makes a decision of what she wants to do when she is pregnant. So if after consideration she decides to have it fine, if she decides to abort that is also fine. The moment you make a decision you are being accountable.
Sam: Yes we make mistakes in life. Are we allowed to punish other people for our mistakes? If the fifteen year old had the child then strangled it what would you say? If she had the child and the skateboarder strangled it, what would you say?
Who would be punished? Do you really believe some spotty faced teenager would want to be a father? :bugeye: No one is punished by having an abortion, you would be punishing the woman if there were mechanisms forcing her to have an unwanted pregnancy.
Strangling a child is not similar in any way to having an abortion.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Its not a child its an unborn fetus. The unborn have no 'life' outside of the mother's physical presence, if she dies so does the fetus, if she eats the unborn is nourished. so its the mother's life we have to focus on. The needs of the born trump those of the unborn.
I beg to differ, if you're having sex you're involved. Unless you're getting paid for it. Even sex on the fly is involved. Contraception can fail, pregnancy is never a 0% probability. Every sexual episode is a risk of involvement. Any other kind of consideration is irresponsible.
Why would you assume a spotty faced teenager would not want to be a father? I have a 15 year old male servant who wants kids. He's getting married expressly for that purpose. And like I said, in the case of teenagers, the parents should have some say. As for the 15 year old, she needs sex education and to take some responsibility for her choices. Does abortion have no effect on teenagers? Can they have one every few months without adverse effects?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Sam: I beg to differ, if you're having sex you're involved. Unless you're getting paid for it. Even sex on the fly is involved. Contraception can fail, pregnancy is never a 0% probability. Every sexual episode is a risk of involvement. Any other kind of consideration is irresponsible.
And you know this how? What is it about sex that means you are somehow emotionally in relationship to someone? Do you mean that if you had a one night stand and the condom broke and you got pregnant you are supposed to hunt down the person and ask permission for what you want to do next? What you say of risk during sex is correct but as I said before people, especially young people make unwise choices. Or sometimes people are careless and so many other factors but that is no reason to throw away you whole life on a mistake.
Sam: I have a 15 year old male servant who wants kids. He's getting married expressly for that purpose. And like I said, in the case of teenagers, the parents should have some say. As for the 15 year old, she needs sex education and to take some responsibility for her choices. Does abortion have no effect on teenagers? Can they have one every few months without adverse effects?
Well they are in the minority and even if he thinks he wants children right now it doesn't mean he will be able to cope with it if he convinced someone to have them for him. You live in india where a 15 year old is working as a servant but in the west a 15 year old is playing video games, watching south park and hanging out without a care in the world save his homework and chores (if he has any).
Well what could the parents say? If the parents want her to have an abortion and she doesn't who gets the last say? Who is responsible? If the parents want her to have it and she wants an abortion who gets the last say? Who would be responsible for the final decision?
Well you are asking two different questions. Both pregnancy to full term and abortion has its risks both physically and emotionally. The effects vary from person to person. I have known a number of women who have had abortions and most went on to have children later when they were ready. Only two felt bad that they had to abort. The others were relieved to have their lives back. The second question assumes that a teenager would use abortion as a contraceptive and although this does happen from time to time its not so common and usually there are no physical affects at all from multiple abortions unless something was botched.
I have not known anyone to have had an abortion and come out of it emotionally scarred though there are cases I'm sure. I would say that when a woman makes such a decision she is sure of what she is doing and why.
All abortion clinics provide sex education services which of course includes contraceptive options. So they would have provided her with that when she went in for the abortion.
And you know this how? What is it about sex that means you are somehow emotionally in relationship to someone? Do you mean that if you had a one night stand and the condom broke and you got pregnant you are supposed to hunt down the person and ask permission for what you want to do next? What you say of risk during sex is correct but as I said before people, especially young people make unwise choices. Or sometimes people are careless and so many other factors but that is no reason to throw away you whole life on a mistake.
Sam: I have a 15 year old male servant who wants kids. He's getting married expressly for that purpose. And like I said, in the case of teenagers, the parents should have some say. As for the 15 year old, she needs sex education and to take some responsibility for her choices. Does abortion have no effect on teenagers? Can they have one every few months without adverse effects?
Well they are in the minority and even if he thinks he wants children right now it doesn't mean he will be able to cope with it if he convinced someone to have them for him. You live in india where a 15 year old is working as a servant but in the west a 15 year old is playing video games, watching south park and hanging out without a care in the world save his homework and chores (if he has any).
Well what could the parents say? If the parents want her to have an abortion and she doesn't who gets the last say? Who is responsible? If the parents want her to have it and she wants an abortion who gets the last say? Who would be responsible for the final decision?
Well you are asking two different questions. Both pregnancy to full term and abortion has its risks both physically and emotionally. The effects vary from person to person. I have known a number of women who have had abortions and most went on to have children later when they were ready. Only two felt bad that they had to abort. The others were relieved to have their lives back. The second question assumes that a teenager would use abortion as a contraceptive and although this does happen from time to time its not so common and usually there are no physical affects at all from multiple abortions unless something was botched.
I have not known anyone to have had an abortion and come out of it emotionally scarred though there are cases I'm sure. I would say that when a woman makes such a decision she is sure of what she is doing and why.
All abortion clinics provide sex education services which of course includes contraceptive options. So they would have provided her with that when she went in for the abortion.
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Well its usually a matter of urgency isn't it? I don't think abortions are pleasant simply necessary. Can you imagine what the world would look like if there were no reproductive rights? In a perfect world no one would be pregnant outside of a loving partnership and family, no one would have to financially struggle etc but this is not the world we live in. Also they are not getting rid of children, women get rid of children when they dump them in foster and adoption homes, I say this because an unborn fetus isn't yet a child. When you abort within three months (most abortions are done within 2 months) which is the legal norm you are not dealing with something that is viable outside of the mothers womb. It doesn't have a name and it hasn't been born, its a fetus but its not a child, its a child when you have birthed it.
What disturbs you the most about abortion really? I mean I am surprised that you would not be for reproductive rights especially for poor women.
Have you heard of this woman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger
She has a street named after her in NY and she is the founder of planned parenthood. You may find it interesting as a piece of history.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I consider abortion to also be within the package of reproductive rights.
Well what do you mean as a convenience? Once you are pregnant there isn't really another way of dealing with the issue outside of having a child. So if you dont want to give birth your only option is abortion.
What difference does it make to society (or even yourself) what another woman chooses to do with her body for her own life?
In a perfect world no one would get pregnant until they were ready but we don't live in that world:shrug:
Have you seen the movie Precious yet? It makes a good case for why abortion is sometimes a better solution.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
No not contraception but an aspect of reproductive rights, there is a difference.
We all thanks to the pro life movement seen the pics of aborted fetuses. Do you think that trumps what it must be like to bleed to death from a back street abortion? Women in the past have committed suicide they were so desperate. I believe that it is for each individual female to make up her own mind what she wants for herself under those conditions. If she abhors abortion then she should be free to have it and if she wants one she should have that available. This is about choice.
We all thanks to the pro life movement seen the pics of aborted fetuses. Do you think that trumps what it must be like to bleed to death from a back street abortion? Women in the past have committed suicide they were so desperate. I believe that it is for each individual female to make up her own mind what she wants for herself under those conditions. If she abhors abortion then she should be free to have it and if she wants one she should have that available. This is about choice.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Who's power? Can you elaborate?
Who are the helpless victims? The unborn fetus? What of the woman who if she has no alternative dies from a back street abortion? Your concern for the unborn has made you blind to the life of the woman, who if denied will also be a victim. In that sense I see a woman who has no option but to have a child or kill herself or seek a dangerous way of aborting as being the victim. Women who have choice don't need to be victims.
Except in the case of rape a woman makes the choice to have sex. If you choose to have sex, you should have the guts to stand by the consequences of sex. The child does not choose to be conceived. Abortion unless it is from forced sex or a life and death decision, is really just about considering children expendable to other life choices. Yes children are a responsibility, so is sex. It is irresponsible to have sex casually then flush the kid down the loo. The right to choose is not the right to abuse.